Why Can’t Lutherans Take Catholic Communion?

[Corki]

Anecdotal examples of Lutherans communing with Catholics are widespread. That is essentially what the Lutheran pastor is chronicling in the story at the start of this thread. I understand that this procedure is not the norm and contrary to historic precautions. Any discussion of “open communion” also implies “full communion” such as is practiced between both American and European Lutherans and Anglicans/ Episcopalians.

Eucharistic hospitality mean that the blessed Sacrament is available to all who are baptized and believe that Christ’s actual bodily mystical presence is adored in the Mass and eaten for life-given salvation and forgiveness of sins.

Coinciding with the anecdotal references, I have offered additional current developments within both the Roman Catholic and Lutheran church where agreement about the Mass may very well mean ‘euchartistic hospitality” between these two historic branches of the Church Catholic.

My dismay, however, is that some posters treat this discussion in an almost hostile manner that would suggest that they are not in agreement with the Catholic/ Lutheran accords.

That is why I have raised the question? Is there a possibility of intercommunion between Catholics and Lutherans at the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, as proposed by LWF Bishop Younan to Pope Benedict several years ago?

christiancentury.org/article/2013-06/lutherans-and-catholics-bury-hatchet-reformation-s-500th

No one has expressed hostility toward the Catholic/Lutheran accords but nowhere in those accords is anything that trumps current canon law regarding inter-Communion between Catholics and Lutherans. If and when the ecumenical movement reaches that point, canon law will be changed to reflect that.

It doesn’t matter what anecdotal examples you have of Catholics ignoring or disobeying the law. Just about any Catholic can give you an anecdotal story about something unauthorized or illicit happening at some Mass, sometime, somewhere in his/her experience. It proves nothing.

And as for the 500th year anniversary of the Reformation, that is a very sad event for the Church. I would be surprised if there is official participation by the Pope in a commemoration of that kind. To celebrate the split is not exactly a step toward greater accord.

 

[JonNC]

No one has expressed hostility toward the Catholic/Lutheran accords but nowhere in those accords is anything that trumps current canon law regarding inter-Communion between Catholics and Lutherans. If and when the ecumenical movement reaches that point, canon law will be changed to reflect that.

It doesn’t matter what anecdotal examples you have of Catholics ignoring or disobeying the law. Just about any Catholic can give you an anecdotal story about something unauthorized or illicit happening at some Mass, sometime, somewhere in his/her experience. It proves nothing.

And as for the 500th year anniversary of the Reformation, that is a very sad event for the Church. I would be surprised if there is official participation by the Pope in a commemoration of that kind. To celebrate the split is not exactly a step toward greater accord.

I actually think there are ongoing plans to jointly commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Certainly it will not be a “celebration”.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

While I share the hope with EC that this day is coming, I think it is wishful thinking and imaginative inferencing to say that that day has already come. The fact is that, today, there is no official agreement for Eucharistic hospitality between our communions, nor is there one in the offing.

Lutherans take it seriously, too. That’s why when hospitality comes, it must be done right. In the meantime, my pastor brought me communion at the hospital a couple of days after my surgery. So powerful was His presence, His body and blood. Amen.

Jon

Well said Hope your recovery is going along smoothly.
Mary.

 

[JonNC]

I actually think there are ongoing plans to jointly commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Certainly it will not be a “celebration”.

Jon

reuters.com/article/2013/06/17/us-vatican-lutheran-reformation-idUSBRE95G0LP20130617

 

[JonNC]

Well said Hope your recovery is going along smoothly.
Mary.

Thank you Mary.

Jon

 

[Corki]

reuters.com/article/2013/06/17/us-vatican-lutheran-reformation-idUSBRE95G0LP20130617

That is a very confusing article. The headline reads “Senior Roman Catholic and Lutheran officials announced on Monday they would mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017 as a shared event rather than highlight the clash that split Western Christianity.” However, the text of the article mentions nothing about the Catholic Church’s participation beyond co-authoring a report.

It does however say that the Lutherans want “Anglican, Mennonite, Reformed, Orthodox and Pentecostal churches” to participate in the commemoration. With that mix, I can’t imagine that the commemoration will involve “Eucharistic hospitality.”

 

[MaryT777]

That is a very confusing article. The headline reads “Senior Roman Catholic and Lutheran officials announced on Monday they would mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017 as a shared event rather than highlight the clash that split Western Christianity.” However, the text of the article mentions nothing about the Catholic Church’s participation beyond co-authoring a report.

It does however say that the Lutherans want “Anglican, Mennonite, Reformed, Orthodox and Pentecostal churches” to participate in the commemoration. With that mix, I can’t imagine that the commemoration will involve “Eucharistic hospitality.”

Not only that I did not think the LCMS was a part of the LWF. Jon is that correct?
Therefore I agree it appears as a co authoring statement.
Mary.

 

[JonNC]

That is a very confusing article. The headline reads “Senior Roman Catholic and Lutheran officials announced on Monday they would mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017 as a shared event rather than highlight the clash that split Western Christianity.” However, the text of the article mentions nothing about the Catholic Church’s participation beyond co-authoring a report.

It does however say that the Lutherans want “Anglican, Mennonite, Reformed, Orthodox and Pentecostal churches” to participate in the commemoration. With that mix, I can’t imagine that the commemoration will involve “Eucharistic hospitality.”

Me neither, even if it was only our 2communions

Jon.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Please read this article from the National Catholic Report among many news services dated 4 days ago:

ncronline.org/news/lutherans-and-catholics-bury-hatchet-reformations-500th

Lutherans and Catholics bury the hatchet for Reformation’s 500th
…
by Alessandro Speciale , Religion News Service | Jun. 20, 2013

Lutherans and Catholics have pledged to celebrate together the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation in 2017, with both sides agreeing to set aside centuries of hostility and prejudice.

The Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation released a joint document, **“From Conflict to Communion,” **in Geneva on Monday that said there’s little purpose in dredging up centuries-old conflicts.

The publication of Martin Luther’s 95 theses on Oct. 31, 1517, is traditionally celebrated as the birth of the Reformation that split Western Christianity into Catholic and Protestant.

In the document, the two churches recognize that in the age of ecumenism and globalization, the celebration requires a new approach, focusing on a reciprocal admission of guilt and on highlighting the progress made by Lutheran-Catholic dialogue in the past 50 years.

How to observe the landmark split is a sensitive topic in Rome, where some Catholics say there’s nothing to celebrate about a schism. Lutherans, too, are wary of a sense of triumphalism or taking pleasure in another church’s discomfort.

The document re-examines the history of the Reformation and the split it created, stressing that Luther **“had no intention of establishing a new church, but was part of a broad and many-faceted desire for reform” **within the church.

“The fact that the struggle for this truth in the 16th century led to the loss of unity in Western Christendom belongs to the dark pages of church history,” the document says. “In 2017, we must confess openly that we have been guilty before Christ of damaging the unity of the church.”

The joint document acknowledges that in today’s world most Christians live in the Global South and thus “do not easily see the confessional conflicts of the 16th century as their own conflicts.”

Even in the Old World, "the awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the 16th century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside."

After caricaturing each other’s beliefs for centuries, an honest theological confrontation between the two sides began after the modernizing reforms of the Catholic church’s Second Vatican Council (1962-65), the document says.

It stresses that, thanks to the ecumenical dialogue of recent decades, Lutherans and Catholics "have come to acknowledge that more unites than divides them."

In 1999, the Vatican and Lutherans signed a formal agreement on the doctrine of justification, the theological issue that was at the root of the separation of the church in the 16th century. The dispute was whether Christians could be saved by faith alone or also through their good works.

But today, even if they have come to an understanding on many core issues of faith, Lutherans and Catholics remain divided on matters such as the role of the pope, women’s ordination and homosexuality.

 

[JonNC]

Please read this article from the National Catholic Report among many news services dated 4 days ago:

ncronline.org/news/lutherans-and-catholics-bury-hatchet-reformations-500th

Lutherans and Catholics bury the hatchet for Reformation’s 500th
…
by Alessandro Speciale , Religion News Service | Jun. 20, 2013

Lutherans and Catholics have pledged to celebrate together the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation in 2017, with both sides agreeing to set aside centuries of hostility and prejudice.

The Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation released a joint document, **“From Conflict to Communion,” **in Geneva on Monday that said there’s little purpose in dredging up centuries-old conflicts.

The publication of Martin Luther’s 95 theses on Oct. 31, 1517, is traditionally celebrated as the birth of the Reformation that split Western Christianity into Catholic and Protestant.

In the document, the two churches recognize that in the age of ecumenism and globalization, the celebration requires a new approach, focusing on a reciprocal admission of guilt and on highlighting the progress made by Lutheran-Catholic dialogue in the past 50 years.

How to observe the landmark split is a sensitive topic in Rome, where some Catholics say there’s nothing to celebrate about a schism. Lutherans, too, are wary of a sense of triumphalism or taking pleasure in another church’s discomfort.

The document re-examines the history of the Reformation and the split it created, stressing that Luther **“had no intention of establishing a new church, but was part of a broad and many-faceted desire for reform” **within the church.

“The fact that the struggle for this truth in the 16th century led to the loss of unity in Western Christendom belongs to the dark pages of church history,” the document says. “In 2017, we must confess openly that we have been guilty before Christ of damaging the unity of the church.”

The joint document acknowledges that in today’s world most Christians live in the Global South and thus “do not easily see the confessional conflicts of the 16th century as their own conflicts.”

Even in the Old World, "the awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the 16th century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside."

After caricaturing each other’s beliefs for centuries, an honest theological confrontation between the two sides began after the modernizing reforms of the Catholic church’s Second Vatican Council (1962-65), the document says.

It stresses that, thanks to the ecumenical dialogue of recent decades, Lutherans and Catholics "have come to acknowledge that more unites than divides them."

In 1999, the Vatican and Lutherans signed a formal agreement on the doctrine of justification, the theological issue that was at the root of the separation of the church in the 16th century. The dispute was whether Christians could be saved by faith alone or also through their good works.

But today, even if they have come to an understanding on many core issues of faith, Lutherans and Catholics remain divided on matters such as the role of the pope, women’s ordination and homosexuality.

Well, not all Lutherans are divided from Catholics on these issues.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Well, not all Lutherans are divided from Catholics on these issues.

Jon

And you know, Jon, there are some Lutherans [ELCA, Church of Sweden, most notably] who cautioned that embrace of female clergy and especially homosexuality would dampen ecumenical relations with Roman Catholics. And that may, in-fact, be a component to slowing down eucharistic hospitality.

I feel that Lutherans, by and large, and many Anglicans are at the forefront of another Reformation within the entire Church. But that is another thread.

 

[MaryT777]

And you know, Jon, there are some Lutherans [ELCA, Church of Sweden, most notably] who cautioned that embrace of female clergy and especially homosexuality would dampen ecumenical relations with Roman Catholics. And that may, in-fact, be a component to slowing down eucharistic hospitality.

I feel that Lutherans, by and large, and many Anglicans are at the forefront of another Reformation within the entire Church. But that is another thread.

You should start such a thread. We have a lot of Lutheran and Anglican posters and it would be interesting.

Mary.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

You should start such a thread. We have a lot of Lutheran and Anglican posters and it would be interesting.

Mary.

Thanks for the encouragement but I fear the backlash from some would make it a spectacle. Maybe in time.

 

[Thinkingaloud]

That is a very confusing article. The headline reads “Senior Roman Catholic and Lutheran officials announced on Monday they would mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017 as a shared event rather than highlight the clash that split Western Christianity.” However, the text of the article mentions nothing about the Catholic Church’s participation beyond co-authoring a report.

It does however say that the Lutherans want “Anglican, Mennonite, Reformed, Orthodox and Pentecostal churches” to participate in the commemoration. With that mix, I can’t imagine that the commemoration will involve “Eucharistic hospitality.”

I’m so looking forward to the commemoration! I hope to visit Wittenburg during the anniversary. I’d better start practicing my German

 

[jmcrae]

I won’t belabor the point of hostility; after seeing the fireworks between Christians on Lutheran forums makes Catholics Answers look tame. I know the discussion of theology can bring out the best and worse in some Christians ironically. My good family members and friends who are Catholic would be shocked by some of the comments, nonetheless.

Lutherans believe in Apostolic Succession just like Anglicans. Where the practice has fallen by the wayside in America, it is being re-instated by having all Lutheran seminarians ordained by someone who has also been ordained by those with Apostolic Succession. How this has been handled in the U.S. is that bishops from Sweden, Finland, Estonia, etc. [where there is no break in the AS, btw], lay hands on newly ordained and installed priests and bishops in the ELCA. Also, Lutherans recognized the AS of the Anglican church so an Episcopal bishop may participate in Lutheran ceremonies .

Can any Bishop validly ordain into a priesthood that is not of his own religion?

Can he even have the sincere intention of ordaining, if he knows that the people participating in the ceremony are not of the same religion as himself, and that they have no intention of coming under obedience to his authority?

For example, a Catholic Bishop would typically not ordain anyone to the priesthood who was not going to be working in one of the parishes in his own Diocese, under obedience to him. The only Bishop who might knowingly do so would be the Bishop of Rome, and in his case, he knows that the Bishops are loyal to him, to whom he is giving these priests that he ordains.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Can any Bishop validly ordain into a priesthood that is not of his own religion?

Can he even have the sincere intention of ordaining, if he knows that the people participating in the ceremony are not of the same religion as himself, and that they have no intention of coming under obedience to his authority?

For example, a Catholic Bishop would typically not ordain anyone to the priesthood who was not going to be working in one of the parishes in his own Diocese, under obedience to him. The only Bishop who might knowingly do so would be the Bishop of Rome, and in his case, he knows that the Bishops are loyal to him, to whom he is giving these priests that he ordains.

Good question. I have heard that in some Lutheran ordinations that Old Catholic bishops participate in the laying of hands. If a bishop is part of the Apostolic Succession and in full communion with the others, then his blessing on the priest is the same as the other bishop. I don’t think a bishop would ordain someone who is not within ecclesiastical authority.

 

[jmcrae]

Good question. I have heard that in some Lutheran ordinations that Old Catholic bishops participate in the laying of hands. If a bishop is part of the Apostolic Succession and in full communion with the others, then his blessing on the priest is the same as the other bishop. I don’t think a bishop would ordain someone who is not within ecclesiastical authority.

Old Catholics are clearly not in full communion with Anglicans, though - no Anglican priest would ever go to work for an Old Catholic Bishop, without first needing to convert to Old Catholic - and the other way around, as well - no Anglican Bishop would ever incardinate an Old Catholic priest, unless he first became Anglican.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Old Catholics are clearly not in full communion with Anglicans, though - no Anglican priest would ever go to work for an Old Catholic Bishop, without first needing to convert to Old Catholic - and the other way around, as well - no Anglican Bishop would ever incardinate an Old Catholic priest, unless he first became Anglican.

I posted this on another thread:

So do Anglicans have a valid Historic Episcopate? I believe we do. Our lines of succession come not only from the pre-reformation Church in England, but also through the Old Catholic and Baltic Lutheran lines. Were our ordination rites ever “defective?” Only if you accept the Counter-Reformation Roman definition of priestly sacrifice as the only norm of the church, thus declaring generations of Roman ordinations and all Eastern Orthodox ordinations invalid.
askthepriest.org/askthepr…rders-and.html

 

[jmcrae]

I posted this on another thread:

So do Anglicans have a valid Historic Episcopate? I believe we do.

What is your definition of “believe”? There are facts of history that cannot be ignored, including the fact that your Rite of Ordination had the words changed for more than a century, meaning that when the words were changed back, there was no one alive who was qualified to say them.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

What is your definition of “believe”? There are facts of history that cannot be ignored, including the fact that your Rite of Ordination had the words changed for more than a century, meaning that when the words were changed back, there was no one alive who was qualified to say them.

I’m sorry, that is a quote from an Episcopal priest’s site entitled 'Ask the Priest"; the link is below the quote.

What I believe is that of the Lutheran Church that apostolic succession within episcopacy is a good norm but not required. A pastor can ordain another pastor in Lutheranism though it is not practiced that way very much. Luther had little choice in Germany during the Reformation but the adjoining countries that switched allegiance to Lutheranism essentially had an undisturbed transition. The very bishops who were Roman Catholic one day became Lutheran the next, so to speak. They continued to care for the dioceses including ordaining priests and deacons.

I am not that acquainted with the circumstances in the Anglican church but that they are in communion with European and American Lutherans, I assume they trace some of their apostolic succession to “Baltic Lutherans” and Old Catholics. I have read of Lutheran priests in America being ordained by a bishop from the North American Old Roman Catholic Church - Utrecht Succession.