Why can't Catholics be Masons?

[aspirant]

I think Catholics would have a much better chance of swaying Catholics away from Masonry but being a bit less hyperbolic

I agree.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

…a good Catholic Mason…

In reality there is no such thing as a “good Catholic Mason” According to the very clear Teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[Lochias]

I don’t understand the question your asking; or what you mean, could you rephrase it ?

Sure, I’ll try.

If Masons do not put any one religion’s diety or God above the other, but instead let “God” mean “pretty much anything”, how do you think that makes God feel? If a devout Catholic professes God as historically and objectively understood by the Catholic Church, how can that person ever actually call himself “devout” if he allows his blessed and loved creator’s name to mean “pretty much anything by anyone” for the sake of being in a clubhouse?

How is that showing actual devotion to God at all? Do you see the problem, and how the Church and the Masons are diametrically opposed? Do you see how quickly the Masons strip God of all His wonderful truth and meaning?

 

[MattofTexas]

Sure, I’ll try.

If Masons do not put any one religion’s diety or God above the other, but instead let “God” mean “pretty much anything”, how do you think that makes God feel? If a devout Catholic professes God as historically and objectively understood by the Catholic Church, how can that person ever actually call himself “devout” if he allows his blessed and loved creator’s name to mean “pretty much anything by anyone” for the sake of being in a clubhouse?

How is that showing actual devotion to God at all? Do you see the problem, and how the Church and the Masons are diametrically opposed? Do you see how quickly the Masons strip God of all His wonderful truth and meaning?

So how do you draw the line? Why is it ok for an organization like the Scouts to allow people of many faiths and not get into religious matters, but it’s not ok for the Masons?

 

[Usige]

So how do you draw the line? Why is it ok for an organization like the Scouts to allow people of many faiths and not get into religious matters, but it’s not ok for the Masons?

The difference is that Masons use the Bible. Well at least as a prop. I have never seen a Masonic altar without a Bible on it, but if you read the writings of Pike he talks about how the Bible or Quoran is a good piece of “furniture”. In other words any religious idiology makes good decoration.

In scouting you won’t have candidates make oaths to God on the bible to kill or commit suicide if they break their oath. Scouts don’t incorporate religious symbols as props to let members fill in the blanks as they see fit. In Catholicism making an oath to God is not of be taken lightly and never an oath to commit murder or other acts of violence. By using religious iconology Masons use members religious zeal in a distorted way. If my God is right and yours is false then how do we make the same binding oaths? If you swear to your false God then how can I trust you to keep your word? I most certainly won’t swear an oath to your false God.

See the issue is that if masonry is not religious then why do they use religious symbology? Why swear oaths on the Bible or even have it in the room? Why have an altar? Why is the last commander of the Knight’s Templar (Jaques de Molay) used as the ideal of youthful males instead of Hugues de Payens. Is it coincidence that he was burned at the stake as a religious heretic and is a symbol against the tyranny of France and the Catholic Church? Why does the 30th degree in the Scottish Rite involve stomping on the papal crown? In non-christian lodges do they get to stomp on an emperors scepter?

None of the above happens in a non religious club.

 

[Lochias]

So how do you draw the line? Why is it ok for an organization like the Scouts to allow people of many faiths and not get into religious matters, but it’s not ok for the Masons?

The Masons DO get into religious matters. By claiming that every religion’s beliefs and practices are equal to the other, they’re attempting to override what those religions teach. By whose authority are they able to do this? What history and logic do they have to back up their claims?

The answer: None. None at all.

The Scouts do not presume to meddle in theology and attempt to re-write history. You can’t even compare the Scouts and the Masons on this level.

As a Christian, doesn’t the Masons’ idea of our God being “just like any other god” bother you at all? Did Jesus sacrifice himself on the cross so that you could so casually dismiss him in this way? Do you actually have a relationship with him, or is he ultimately just a figurehead in just another club, to you?

I’m not accusing you of anything, I genuinely want to know the answer to those questions.

 

[MattofTexas]

As a Christian, doesn’t the Masons’ idea of our God being “just like any other god” bother you at all? Did Jesus sacrifice himself on the cross so that you could so casually dismiss him in this way? Do you actually have a relationship with him, or is he ultimately just a figurehead in just another club, to you?

I’m not accusing you of anything, I genuinely want to know the answer to those questions.

If the Masons really teach that all religions are equally true (which is logically absurd as well as anti-Christian Scripture and Tradition) and valid paths to God, and that God can be truly and fully known (to the greatest extent men can know God) through the teachings of any religion and that none should be regarded as better than any other, then yes I am extremely bothered by this most detestable doctrine. What I question is if Masonry actually teaches this. Consider: as we’ve already established Masonry claims to not to be a religion and not be a substitute for religion. Masonry also professes to not have a plan of salvation (“The path to salvation is found in each Mason’s house of worship, not in his Lodge”). As such I see Masonic acceptance of men of all religions and forbidding talk of religion in the lodge as:

1. An affirmation of Theism, and while not affirming any specific religions teachings it also does not deny said teachings. Masonry is not a religion and therefore does not concern itself with doctrine and dogma. They are a secular organization that values religion and is built on a belief in God, but believe men must come to seek God in various Faiths for themselves, not through the Lodge.
2. A policy designed to allow men to work together upon the things that they agree on, rather than fighting over their differences or offending anyone. Remember that this policy is only imposed in the lodge, not throughout all aspects of the Masons life.

Because Freemasonry is not a religion it’s policies and teachings should not be seen as theology that Masons are to believe, it’s not a religion. From the standpoint of the lodge all religions are acceptable, however, I see no reason to think that this membership policy and basic theism-only view are imposed on or taught to Masons in the sense that individual Masons hold the view that all religions are objectively equal in truth or goodness (unless you can furnish some evidence otherwise). I think Masons respect all belief systems out of courtesy and a recognition that men of Faith can do much good together and may even know God in certain ways even if their beliefs differ (and of this second statement, I think this IS the Catholic teaching, that people can know God in various imperfect ways even if they do not belong to the Church?), but in their hearts they don’t necessarily believe that any system other than their own religion (as in the religion they believe in, not Freemasonry as a religion) is actually true. This is my understanding of Masonry’s religious pluralistic nature. If it is not true and Masonry does teach its members to regard all religions as equally true (not just to tolerate and respect religious diversity), how could any Christian join or remain a Mason? Yet there are many Protestants who are Masons from a wide verity of denominations. Can you prove me wrong from official Masonic sources or show me the error in my reasoning?

So once again I ask, how is this different than any other interfaith organization or secular organization with any spiritual element?

 

[Lochias]

If the Masons really teach that all religions are equally true (which is logically absurd as well as anti-Christian Scripture and Tradition) and valid paths to God, and that God can be truly and fully known (to the greatest extent men can know God) through the teachings of any religion and that none should be regarded as better than any other, then yes I am extremely bothered by this most detestable doctrine.

Ok, established.

What I question is if Masonry actually teaches this. Consider: as we’ve already established Masonry claims to not to be a religion and not be a substitute for religion.

So…as long as it doesn’t claim to be a religion, it can stand against the objective truth of Christ and his sacrifice all that it wants? And you’re ok with being associated with people like that? And, not only that, can you think of why the Church would continue to forbid its members to become Masons, if Freemasonry presented “proof” that it’s not anti-Catholic?

Why would the Church continue its stance otherwise? What does it have to gain, if the Mason’s claims are true?

Masonry also professes to not have a plan of salvation (“The path to salvation is found in each Mason’s house of worship, not in his Lodge”). As such I see Masonic acceptance of men of all religions and forbidding talk of religion in the lodge as:

1. An affirmation of Theism, and while not affirming any specific religions teachings it also does not deny said teachings. Masonry is not a religion and therefore does not concern itself with doctrine and dogma. They are a secular organization that values religion and is built on a belief in God, but believe men must come to seek God in various Faiths for themselves, not through the Lodge.

By actively affirming Theism, Masonry also denies the objective truth of God. You cannot be both for or against something.

1. A policy designed to allow men to work together upon the things that they agree on, rather than fighting over their differences or offending anyone. Remember that this policy is only imposed in the lodge, not throughout all aspects of the Masons life.

Since when did holding different viewpoints and ideas become something to be feared and dismissed?

Because Freemasonry is not a religion it’s policies and teachings should not be seen as theology that Masons are to believe, it’s not a religion.

It doesn’t have to be in order to espouse ideals which are innately anti-Christian.

From the standpoint of the lodge all religions are acceptable, however, I see no reason to think that this membership policy and basic theism-only view are imposed on or taught to Masons in sense that individual Masons hold the view that all religions are objectively equal in truth or goodness (unless you can furnish some evidence otherwise).

But anyone who becomes a Mason still willingly associates with a membership that teaches those ideals. This is the idea of “scandal”, and it presents a confusing view to others of what you actually believe. You are, in effect, “hiding your light under a basket” when you choose to allow this kind of confusion.

I think Masons respect all belief systems out of courtesy and a recognition that men of Faith can do much good together and may even know God in certain ways even if their beliefs differ (and of this second statement, I think this IS the Catholic teaching, that people can know God in various imperfect ways even if they do not belong to the Church?)

All well and good, and you’re correct, yes.

, but in their hearts they don’t necessarily believe that any system other than their own religion (as in the religion they believe in, not Freemasonry as a religion) is actually true.

Then why associate yourself as belonging to their members? Are you a witness for Christ, or for secular relativism?

This is my understanding of Masonry’s religious pluralistic nature. Can you prove me wrong from official Masonic sources or show me the error in my reasoning?

I hope I already have.

 

[benjohnson]

As such I see Masonic acceptance of men of all religions and forbidding talk of religion in the lodge as:

1. An affirmation of Theism, and while not affirming any specific religions teachings it also does not deny said teachings. Masonry is not a religion and therefore does not concern itself with doctrine and dogma. They are a secular organization that values religion and is built on a belief in God, but believe men must come to seek God in various Faiths for themselves, not through the Lodge.
2. A policy designed to allow men to work together upon the things that they agree on, rather than fighting over their differences or offending anyone. Remember that this policy is only imposed in the lodge, not throughout all aspects of the Masons life.

This is how my lodge sees it. Religion is outside the sphere of the Lodge and this is done for a good reason; It wasn’t too long ago that Catholics and Protestants didn’t even talk to each other much unless absolutely necessary.

So once again I ask, how is this different than any other interfaith organization or secular organization with any spiritual element?

What I see as dangerous, is that if someone is not strong in their faith, one could definitely read too much into the famous Masonic religious tolerance a come away with a unitarian idea of God. If you view the weird Masonic symbolism as some sort of picking and choosing from religions sources, there are syncretism issues as well.

The danger is real - we can see what happened to Joesph Smith when he became enamored with Masonic symbolism - he used it in his (in my opinion) created religion.

 

[Lochias]

This is how my lodge sees it. Religion is outside the sphere of the Lodge and this is done for a good reason; It wasn’t too long ago that Catholics and Protestants didn’t even talk to each other much unless absolutely necessary.

Nuclear physics is also likely outside of the sphere of the lodge. Does it also do away with the involved science and mathematics, too?

Can you see the bias here?

 

[MattofTexas]

By actively affirming Theism, Masonry also denies the objective truth of God. You cannot be both for or against something.

Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. In a more specific sense, theism is commonly a monotheistic doctrine concerning the nature of a deity, and that deity’s relationship to the universe. Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and some forms of Hinduism.

I don’t see how affirming theism denies the truth about God, as that it’s part of that truth (it’s just not all of it).

Since when did holding different viewpoints and ideas become something to be feared and dismissed?

It’s not.

But anyone who becomes a Mason still willingly associates with a membership that teaches those ideals. This is the idea of “scandal”, and it presents a confusing view to others of what you actually believe. You are, in effect, “hiding your light under a basket” when you choose to allow this kind of confusion.

This is a good point. I do wonder though if a bit of a double standard is being applied, as that similar ideas do not merit Catholic exclusion from other aspects of society or other organizations.

 

[Lochias]

I don’t see how affirming theism denies the truth about God, as that it’s part of that truth (it’s just not all of it).

…Theism and Christianity are mutually exclusive. One teaches that all religions are the same, and one exalts God, as He should be. “Our God is a jealous God”, and all that.

Are you serious, here?

Edit: And, for that matter, why are you willing to be part of a group that only promotes “part of the truth”, as you see it, and denies the rest?

It’s not.

Then why the Mason’s emphasis on it?

This is a good point. I do wonder though if a bit of a double standard is being applied, as that similar ideas do not merit Catholic exclusion from other aspects of society or other organizations.

Can you give some examples?

 

[benjohnson]

Nuclear physics is also likely outside of the sphere of the lodge. Does it also do away with the involved science and mathematics, too?

Can you see the bias here?

It not the subject matter per se, but the penchant for people to quarrel about the subject matter that we’re avoiding for the purposes of the Lodge. For example, arguing over politics is banned as well.

 

[Usige]

If the Masons really teach that all religions are equally true (which is logically absurd as well as anti-Christian Scripture and Tradition) and valid paths to God, and that God can be truly and fully known (to the greatest extent men can know God) through the teachings of any religion and that none should be regarded as better than any other, then yes I am extremely bothered by this most detestable doctrine. What I question is if Masonry actually teaches this. Consider: as we’ve already established Masonry claims to not to be a religion and not be a substitute for religion. Masonry also professes to not have a plan of salvation (“The path to salvation is found in each Mason’s house of worship, not in his Lodge”). As such I see Masonic acceptance of men of all religions and forbidding talk of religion in the lodge as:

1. An affirmation of Theism, and while not affirming any specific religions teachings it also does not deny said teachings. Masonry is not a religion and therefore does not concern itself with doctrine and dogma. They are a secular organization that values religion and is built on a belief in God, but believe men must come to seek God in various Faiths for themselves, not through the Lodge.
2. A policy designed to allow men to work together upon the things that they agree on, rather than fighting over their differences or offending anyone. Remember that this policy is only imposed in the lodge, not throughout all aspects of the Masons life.

Because Freemasonry is not a religion it’s policies and teachings should not be seen as theology that Masons are to believe, it’s not a religion. From the standpoint of the lodge all religions are acceptable, however, I see no reason to think that this membership policy and basic theism-only view are imposed on or taught to Masons in the sense that individual Masons hold the view that all religions are objectively equal in truth or goodness (unless you can furnish some evidence otherwise). I think Masons respect all belief systems out of courtesy and a recognition that men of Faith can do much good together and may even know God in certain ways even if their beliefs differ (and of this second statement, I think this IS the Catholic teaching, that people can know God in various imperfect ways even if they do not belong to the Church?), but in their hearts they don’t necessarily believe that any system other than their own religion (as in the religion they believe in, not Freemasonry as a religion) is actually true. This is my understanding of Masonry’s religious pluralistic nature. If it is not true and Masonry does teach its members to regard all religions as equally true (not just to tolerate and respect religious diversity), how could any Christian join or remain a Mason? Yet there are many Protestants who are Masons from a wide verity of denominations. Can you prove me wrong from official Masonic sources or show me the error in my reasoning?

So once again I ask, how is this different than any other interfaith organization or secular organization with any spiritual element?

This is how my lodge sees it. Religion is outside the sphere of the Lodge and this is done for a good reason; It wasn’t too long ago that Catholics and Protestants didn’t even talk to each other much unless absolutely necessary.

What I see as dangerous, is that if someone is not strong in their faith, one could definitely read too much into the famous Masonic religious tolerance a come away with a unitarian idea of God. If you view the weird Masonic symbolism as some sort of picking and choosing from religions sources, there are syncretism issues as well.

The danger is real - we can see what happened to Joesph Smith when he became enamored with Masonic symbolism - he used it in his (in my opinion) created religion.

So neither of your lodges have an altar? None have a Bible on said altar? None of your lodges swear oaths on said Bible? I can also assume that the “Worshipful Master’s” chair is not set in the east? I have never been in a lodge where those elements were not present. All of that is religious symbology. Masonry can claim anything they want, but if they truly are not religious then why not strip religious symbology from the lodges, rites, and even names of groups? Rename eastern star women’s auxiliary (okay master masons can belong too), the stories referenced in the symbols and colors of the eastern star, even the virtues represented by the rainbow stations of Faith, Hope, and Charity are taken from Christianity.

 

[benjohnson]

So neither of your lodges have an altar? None have a Bible on said altar?

I agree with your predicates, but not the conclusion.

My desk has a bible on it. My home has a quite place for God. But my home is not a church!

Simply put - the Lodge is not secular, you must believe in God to join. But it’s not a church. I’m ok what that aspect of it as I have a church I’m part of.

 

[Lochias]

It not the subject matter per se, but the penchant for people to quarrel about the subject matter that we’re avoiding for the purposes of the Lodge. For example, arguing over politics is banned as well.

But the Lodge doesn’t just avoid the topic of religion, does it? It states that all religions are equal.

As a Christian, do you not see this as false?

 

[Lochias]

I agree with your predicates, but not the conclusion.

My desk has a bible on it. My home has a quite place for God. But my home is not a church!

Simply put - the Lodge is not secular, you must believe in God to join. But it’s not a church. I’m ok what that aspect of it as I have a church I’m part of.

…but you must acknowledge the Masons’ view of God by “hiding your light under a basket” whenever you go to the Lodge.

Are you the salt of the earth, or not? Did Jesus give us exceptions and times when it was ok not to acknowledge God as sovereign Lord of our lives?

 

[benjohnson]

But the Lodge doesn’t just avoid the topic of religion, does it? It states that all religions are equal.

As a Christian, do you not see this as false?

Yes - this is false! There is only the Triune God - and indeed the possibility of a diluted form on Unitarianism is for me the most troubling aspect of Masonry.

To be fair, Masonry never says that all religions are equal, but it does imply that in it’s actions by accepting most religious texts as suitable for the oaths. Historically, Masonry only deal with Christian religions - the addition of other monotheistic religions has made more of this than was historically accounted for.

There are parallels of this Masonic idea in the secular world - one can swear on the religious text of your choice in court.

 

[benjohnson]

…but you must acknowledge the Masons’ view of God by “hiding your light under a basket” whenever you go to the Lodge.

Good points! I don’t think I’m denying the full aspect of God, only keeping mum for a while in the Lodge in the same way that actors say silly things on stage that don’t exactly proclaim the full Gospel.

As an aside, kudo’s to you - I think your line of caution and realistic concern is the most effective way of convincing Catholic Masons to quit their Lodge. You’re not talking crazy talk at all - most Lodge members are mostly sane. I imagine that emulating your tact would be the most successful for those that seek to pry Catholics away from Freemasonry.

 

[Lochias]

Yes - this is false! There is only the Triune God - and indeed the possibility of a diluted form on Unitarianism is for me the most troubling aspect of Masonry.

Gotcha. Why, then, are you a Mason at all? No matter how much good they might do, they espouse a view of God that cannot be compatible with Christianity. Why are you deliberately “muddying the waters”?

To be fair, Masonry never says that all religions are equal, but it does imply that in it’s actions by accepting most religious texts as suitable for the oaths. Historically, Masonry only deal with Christian religions - the addition of other monotheistic religions has made more of this than was historically accounted for.

Even if it only originally dealt with Christian religions, the views it espouses are still incompatible with Christian teaching.

There are parallels of this Masonic idea in the secular world - one can swear on the religious text of your choice in court.

The court doesn’t make claims about the nature of God (yet)…