Why can't Catholics be Masons?

[Lochias]

Good points! I don’t think I’m denying the full aspect of God, only keeping mum for a while in the Lodge in the same way that actors say silly things on stage that don’t exactly proclaim the full Gospel.

Choosing to keep silent about the true nature of God is still an affirmative act against the nature of God, though. Jesus never told us to “go out into the world, but keep mum.”

EDIT: I also think actors need to be careful about what they do and portray on the screen…it is making just as much a statement as going to the Lodge. It speaks to what they’re willing to do (and deny) for money, or fame, or whatever.

As an aside, kudo’s to you - I think your line of caution and realistic concern is the most effective way of convincing Catholic Masons to quit their Lodge. You’re not talking crazy talk at all - most Lodge members are mostly sane. I imagine that emulating your tact would be the most successful for those that seek to pry Catholics away from Freemasonry.

Thank you. All I’m trying to do is make an appeal from common sense. That’s totally it. Red is red, and green is green, sky’s blue, water’s wet, and Freemasonry isn’t compatible with Christianity.

 

[TimothyH]

With regard to oaths, the civil court system is the legitimate athority on matters of civil and crimminal law. They alone have the right to ask that an oath be sworn on matters pertaining to civil or crimminal law. We cannot set up a court in our living room and swear in witnesses because we are not the legitimate authority.

In matters of faith and morals, God has granted singular and exclusive authority to the Catholic Church. Only the Catholic Church can ask for an oath to be sworn on matters of faith and morals. Any organization which asks its members to swear an oath on matters of faith and/or morals is presuming to have authority which has not been granted to it, authority which God himself has granted to the Church.

The problem with oath is not with the oaths themselves, but with who presumes to have authority to ask people to swear an oath. We have to always ask ourselves 1) what does this oath ask me to do and, 2) does this person asking me to swear this oath have authority on this matter.

In matters of crimminal and civil law, the state is the legitimate authority and so has every right to ask people to swear an oath.

The question of authority is where Catholics must draw the line on freemasonry. Freemasonry states that any contradiction between the rules of one’s religion and the rules of freemasonry must be decided in favor of freemasonry. That is part of the oath which one swears when they become a freemason. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that the Church’s authority is divinely instituted. One cannot serve two masters, and so one cannot be both a freemason and a Catholic at the same time.

For the record, my father was three time master of his lodge.

-Tim-

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

But the Lodge doesn’t just avoid the topic of religion, does it? It states that all religions are equal.

As a Christian, do you not see this as false?

For me, if the Lodge states that all religions are equal, the question becomes: in what does the Lodge believe that equality subsists?

To my very limited understanding, the Lodge’s statement of religious equality (whether that statement is made overtly or practically) is related to all religions expressing (in one way or another) man’s yearning for God. An acknowledgement of equality on that level is no comment on the actual value of any particular religion, but is a recognition of a basic fact of human experience. Moreover it appears to me that the Lodge intends to foster that yearning without expressly dictating what shape that yearning should take.

This seems to square (Ha! Pun!) with what benjohnson writes regarding the Lodge’s attitude toward religion (and it squares, too, with what he writes regarding the dangers of treating masonry as if it were a religion it is not–one winds up with a shapeless yearning upon which one imposes a shape of one’s own devising). And it doesn’t seem all that functionally different from an attitude of religious non-discrimination which more or less prevails in the public square of most pluralistic societies that have adopted liberal/enlightenment democratic principles of government. The essential difference, though, is that the public square and liberal/enlightenment democratic government does not do much by way of directly fostering man’s yearning for God in any way which isn’t tragic or ironic. There are those (such as Hauerwas), who would attribute the decline in public morality to liberal/enlightenment democracy’s inability to actually provide a structure (apart from a legal structure unsuited to the task) in which public morality in a pluralistic society can be fostered, let alone talked about. The best we can say in our modern democracies is that individual morality is made possible, but public morality is a moot point.

Looking at things from this perspective, an organization dedicated to both public morality and the principles of democratic pluralism would likely seek to develop a very nebulous concept of a Supreme Being in order to accommodate both morality and democracy, but would shy away from defining that concept (or that Being) along particularly sectarian lines–and for obvious reasons. Because what they’re really after as a group is not so much God as civic virtue. All that makes sense to me and doesn’t appear to be particularly controversial. Where controversy would arise, however, would be among those who (whether consciously or no) do not actually believe in public morality / civic virtue or do not believe in democracy when push comes to shove.

I’m not a Mason, so all this is speculation.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[MattofTexas]

So neither of your lodges have an altar? None have a Bible on said altar? None of your lodges swear oaths on said Bible? I can also assume that the “Worshipful Master’s” chair is not set in the east? I have never been in a lodge where those elements were not present. All of that is religious symbology. Masonry can claim anything they want, but if they truly are not religious then why not strip religious symbology from the lodges, rites, and even names of groups? Rename eastern star women’s auxiliary (okay master masons can belong too), the stories referenced in the symbols and colors of the eastern star, even the virtues represented by the rainbow stations of Faith, Hope, and Charity are taken from Christianity.

I’m not a Mason, I just have family who are or were involved in Masonic organizations- and I’ve found Christian opposition to Freemasonry to be disturbing and based on misunderstandings. Benjohnson’s comments about how in practice Masonry declares all religions equal by the use of different VSL and “gods” in the oaths gives me pause though.

Perhaps I’ve used the wrong term…by Theism I meant “belief that there is a God”.

 

[Lochias]

Grace & Peace!

For me, if the Lodge states that all religions are equal, the question becomes: in what does the Lodge believe that equality subsists?

To my very limited understanding, the Lodge’s statement of religious equality (whether that statement is made overtly or practically) is related to all religions expressing (in one way or another) man’s yearning for God. An acknowledgement of equality on that level is no comment on the actual value of any particular religion, but is a recognition of a basic fact of human experience. Moreover it appears to me that the Lodge intends to foster that yearning without expressly dictating what shape that yearning should take.

This seems to square (Ha! Pun!) with what benjohnson writes regarding the Lodge’s attitude toward religion (and it squares, too, with what he writes regarding the dangers of treating masonry as if it were a religion it is not–one winds up with a shapeless yearning upon which one imposes a shape of one’s own devising). And it doesn’t seem all that functionally different from an attitude of religious non-discrimination which more or less prevails in the public square of most pluralistic societies that have adopted liberal/enlightenment democratic principles of government. The essential difference, though, is that the public square and liberal/enlightenment democratic government does not do much by way of directly fostering man’s yearning for God in any way which isn’t tragic or ironic. There are those (such as Hauerwas), who would attribute the decline in public morality to liberal/enlightenment democracy’s inability to actually provide a structure (apart from a legal structure unsuited to the task) in which public morality in a pluralistic society can be fostered, let alone talked about. The best we can say in our modern democracies is that individual morality is made possible, but public morality is a moot point.

Looking at things from this perspective, an organization dedicated to both public morality and the principles of democratic pluralism would likely seek to develop a very nebulous concept of a Supreme Being in order to accommodate both morality and democracy, but would shy away from defining that concept (or that Being) along particularly sectarian lines–and for obvious reasons. Because what they’re really after as a group is not so much God as civic virtue. All that makes sense to me and doesn’t appear to be particularly controversial. Where controversy would arise, however, would be among those who (whether consciously or no) do not actually believe in public morality / civic virtue or do not believe in democracy when push comes to shove.

I’m not a Mason, so all this is speculation.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

All that being as it may or may not, it’s still not compatible with basic Christian beliefs.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Masons state for themselves:
Masonry is not a religion. There is nothing in Freemasonry to interfere with a man’s religious life. Persons of all faiths and Christian denominations are a part of the worldwide Masonic fraternity. Religion and politics are two subjects not allowed to be discussed when a lodge is in session.
-Grand Lodge of Texas

MattofTexas if you look at your state’s, Grand Lodge of Texas, A.F. and A.M., *Monitor of the Lodge: Monitorial Instructions in the Three Degrees of Symbolic Masonry *(Grand Lodge of Texas, 1982), pp. xiii-xiv, you will also find the following authoritative quote (and Masonic Monitors are the Masonic rule and ritual books so to speak which each Mason should have) explaining what the ceremonies and teachings of the Masonic Grand Lodge of Texas represent:

“These [Masonic teachings were] practiced from remote ages, in the ancient temples of many nations. Such ceremonies and their correlated teachings have sometimes been referred to as the Mysteries of Masonry, with the same signification employed when one speaks of the ‘Mysteries of the Magi’, the ‘Mysteries of Osiris,’ the ‘Grecian Mysteries of Eleusis,’ and other kindred rites, practiced in the temples of initiation throughout the ancient world…
The presence in the modern Masonic system, of many of the emblems, symbols and allegories of the ancient Temples of Initiation, as well as certain rites performed therein, has persuaded the most learned among Masonic scholars to conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in some aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries of the Temple of Solomon, and of the the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, as well as the basic doctrines of the Essenes, Gnostics and other mystic Orders”

I mean it’s one thing to say in front of people we’re not a religion and write so but to then explicitly claim provenance for Masonic Ceremonies in the pagan mystery cults of old in Masonic Monitors which are to be hidden from the profane non-Masons is rather duplicitous. I actually went into greater detail on the whole Masonic Hiram Abiff ritual on the other thread mentioned in this thread but am too tired to go over it again.

Nobody is claiming Masons are bad people, least me. I claim here and on the other thread that: Masonic ritual is completely incompatible with Christianity as are the Masonic oaths to mutilation made on the Bible and the oaths sworn on the Bible to protect a fellow Mason (Royal Arch) whether he be right or wrong, among other amoral obligations. It’s in the ritual.

Most Masons don’t put their minds to these questions obviously but if you read the ritual and learn of the Secret, Omnific Name for God given to Royal Arch Masons in the York Rite, you learn mystery cults play a major role and not just in York Rite but Scottish rite and Blue Lodge. If I have time, I can even go through some of the ritual in the Scottish rite tomorrow where people like Zoroaster are venerated in the higher degrees but no mention is made of Jesus Christ.

As for the Shriners, there is even talk now of the Shriners becoming a separate body from Scottish Rite or York Rite Masonry. The Shriners realized they shouldn’t be calling their buildings “Temples” as they did as Freemasons. In certain states, Grand Lodges are having arguments now with the Shrine.

And, no, I don’t believe any of those insane Iluminati/conspiracy theories about Masonry or devil worship, (though the Grand Orient in France has been involved in some high-profile shenanigans) and Masons are bleeding members and lodges now. The religious objections are strong enough, though the Secret Royal Arch Masonic Name for God Jahbalon is not Jesus Christ most definitely and it’s a word that has greatly troubled not just Catholics but the Anglican Church and other Protestant churches for using as one of the syllables for God’s secret name the heathen god “Baal” who fought God in the Old Testament.

You can say Masons don’t discuss religion but when the Ritual gives a mystical lecture to you in the Temple on God’s secret long-lost name, try as you might, that’s religion. This is no longer just a Catholic/Freemason conflict, it’s Christian/Freemason as the former Archbishop of Canterbury himself found Freemasonry to be incompatible with Christianity.

 

[MattofTexas]

MattofTexas if you look at your state’s, Grand Lodge of Texas, A.F. and A.M., *Monitor of the Lodge: Monitorial Instructions in the Three Degrees of Symbolic Masonry *(Grand Lodge of Texas, 1982), pp. xiii-xiv, you will also find the following authoritative quote (and Masonic Monitors are the Masonic rule and ritual books so to speak which each Mason should have) explaining what the ceremonies and teachings of the Masonic Grand Lodge of Texas represent:

“These [Masonic teachings were] practiced from remote ages, in the ancient temples of many nations. Such ceremonies and their correlated teachings have sometimes been referred to as the Mysteries of Masonry, with the same signification employed when one speaks of the ‘Mysteries of the Magi’, the ‘Mysteries of Osiris,’ the ‘Grecian Mysteries of Eleusis,’ and other kindred rites, practiced in the temples of initiation throughout the ancient world…
The presence in the modern Masonic system, of many of the emblems, symbols and allegories of the ancient Temples of Initiation, as well as certain rites performed therein, has persuaded the most learned among Masonic scholars to conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in some aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries of the Temple of Solomon, and of the the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, as well as the basic doctrines of the Essenes, Gnostics and other mystic Orders”

I mean it’s one thing to say in front of people we’re not a religion and write so but to then explicitly claim provenance for Masonic Ceremonies in the pagan mystery cults of old in Masonic Monitors which are to be hidden from the profane non-Masons is rather duplicitous. I actually went into greater detail on the whole Masonic Hiram Abiff ritual on the other thread mentioned in this thread but am too tired to go over it again.

Nobody is claiming Masons are bad people, least me. I claim here and on the other thread that: Masonic ritual is completely incompatible with Christianity as are the Masonic oaths to mutilation made on the Bible and the oaths sworn on the Bible to protect a fellow Mason (Royal Arch) whether he be right or wrong, among other amoral obligations. It’s in the ritual.

Most Masons don’t put their minds to these questions obviously but if you read the ritual and learn of the Secret, Omnific Name for God given to Royal Arch Masons in the York Rite, you learn mystery cults play a major role and not just in York Rite but Scottish rite and Blue Lodge. If I have time, I can even go through some of the ritual in the Scottish rite tomorrow where people like Zoroaster are venerated in the higher degrees but no mention is made of Jesus Christ.

As for the Shriners, there is even talk now of the Shriners becoming a separate body from Scottish Rite or York Rite Masonry. The Shriners realized they shouldn’t be calling their buildings “Temples” as they did as Freemasons. In certain states, Grand Lodges are having arguments now with the Shrine.

And, no, I don’t believe any of those insane Iluminati/conspiracy theories about Masonry or devil worship, (though the Grand Orient in France has been involved in some high-profile shenanigans) and Masons are bleeding members and lodges now. The religious objections are strong enough, though the Secret Royal Arch Masonic Name for God Jahbalon is not Jesus Christ most definitely and it’s a word that has greatly troubled not just Catholics but the Anglican Church and other Protestant churches for using as one of the syllables for God’s secret name the heathen god “Baal” who fought God in the Old Testament.

You can say Masons don’t discuss religion but when the Ritual gives a mystical lecture to you in the Temple on God’s secret long-lost name, try as you might, that’s religion. This is no longer just a Catholic/Freemason conflict, it’s Christian/Freemason as the former Archbishop of Canterbury himself found Freemasonry to be incompatible with Christianity.

While I think:

The presence in the modern Masonic system, of many of the emblems, symbols and allegories of the ancient Temples of Initiation, as well as certain rites performed therein, has persuaded the most learned among Masonic scholars to conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in some aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries of the Temple of Solomon, and of the the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, as well as the basic doctrines of the Essenes, Gnostics and other mystic Orders

is historically unlikely and by no means undisputed (even by other Masons, at least publicly)…the idea that they see themselves as the heirs to various pagan religions as well as Judaism and Gnosticism is indeed troubling.

 

[KyivAndrew]

the idea that they see themselves as the heirs to various pagan religions as well as Judaism and Gnosticism is indeed troubling.

As are the Masonic oaths which a Masonic initiate is not even allowed to read beforehand but repeats like an automaton after his Worshipful Master of the Lodge word-for-word.

For the 3rd Degree Master Mason oath in the Masonic Temple, you as a candidate are forced to kneel blind-folded on naked knees at the Masonic Altar bare-chested, legs and arms bare, with a cable tow rope tied three times around your waist. (in the previous degrees you will be blindfolded and have a dagger pointed at your naked chest and noose around your neck). You repeat whatever you are told, on the Volume of Sacred Law, the Bible no less in most cases, with a square and compass on top of it.

In the Third Degree, the Master Mason, the candidate is forced to promise:
“Further, that I will keep a worthy brother Master Mason’s secrets inviolable, when communicated to and received by me as such, murder and treason excepted.” (Again, you’re saying this blindfolded without even knowing what you’re obliging yourself to on the Bible).

In the higher Royal Arch Ceremony of the York Rite, the secrecy exceptions for murder and treason are removed, and the oath is:
“I furthermore promise and swear, that I will keep all the secrets of a Companion Royal Arch Mason (when communicated so me as such, or I knowing them to be such), without exceptions.
I furthermore promise and swear, that I will assist a Companion Royal Arch Mason when I see him engaged in any difficulty, and will espouse his cause so far as to extricate him from the same,WHETHER HE BE RIGHT OR WRONG”

Now these are not exhortations obviously to the highest moral behaviour. The whole Hiram Abiff ritual in the Blue Lodge degrees revolves around Hiram Abiff being raised after being murdered for having kept the secret Master Mason’s word a secret and not divulging it. Secrecy is the virtue being taught in the ritual, which obviously is why Gnosticism (secret esoteric knowledge) fits in so well into Freemasonry.

Now most Masons may not put too much thought into the ritual and ceremony but the fact is Masonic dues may go Masonic Research Lodges whose members attempt at some effort to find gnostic and occult foundations for Freemasonry. And if a Mason actually wishes to think honestly about the ritual, he should realize how it is incompatible with Christianity. If you’re a Mason belonging to some Scottish Rite Valley in the Southern Jurisdiction, you will know that Albert Pike’s Morals and Dogma (which contains all the talk about gnosticism, the occult, and the values of such) has been updated for the 21st century and can be purchased at the Scottish Rite Bookstore online. Albert Pike stills provides the moral precepts for the Scottish Rite ritual. Indeed, I think he is the only Confederate Officer who has a statue in Washington, D.C. (why? because of his contribution to Freemasonry).

As for Christian/Masonic conflict, well, in Blue Lodge the Masonic initiate uses the Holy Bible to promise not to have carnal relations with a brother Mason’s wife, mother, sisters, or daughters. Period. No more.
How is this not an insult to the use of the Bible? The Bible forbids all adultery but instead of promising to remain faithful to your wife the Mason merely promises not to fool around with another brother’s female relations - on the Bible which forbids adultery.

You shouldn’t bring the Bible into any Masonic Temple. It’s sacrilege. Some have pointed out that the Egyptian Book of the Dead Osiris stories would provide a better Volume of Sacred Law for the Masonic Ritual and oaths. After all there is no room for Jesus Christ in the Lodge.

 

[benjohnson]

I’m not supposed to divulge the ‘secrets’ of Masonry, but the last few comments have been mostly spot-on in that there is a bunch of odd stuff in the Masonic and ancillary rituals. As for the ‘oaths’ there’s nothing too embarrassing in them save for the weird penalties.

More as a defense to those Catholics who are Masons, at least in my lodge, the ritual is presented in a way that you completely understand that it is not ‘real’ - that it portrays a fictitious a time and place that never existed.

In my opinion, that some Masons take the odder parts of the these plays (what Masons call ritual) seriously is their failing. Thankfully I haven’t met such a person, as the urge to shake some sense into them would be strong.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The very foundation of “freemasonary” is anti-catholic and anti-pope and magesterium. It began to persecute Catholics for political gain and power over the peoples in Europe.

It has a different face in the U.S.than other parts of the world which have been infected by “Freemasonry”.

Mexico “Freemasonary” laws are still in effect and still anti-catholic. For example Catholic clerics and religious sisters are not allowed to wear their habbits in public.

To become a Mason is to self excommunicate oneself from the Catholic Church. Freemasons in the U.S allow their members to practice their own religious belief’s. What is distinct in character of Freemasons is that they take good care of their own, something that is anti-catholic and anti-christian.

In short give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar and give to God what belongs to God. That is a short answer to why Catholics cannot become “FreeMasons”. The Kingdom of God is not of the world. Freemasons came into existance to rid of the Catholic Church and form to the ways of the Ceasars whom they put in power.

Peace be with you

 

[KyivAndrew]

In my opinion, that some Masons take the odder parts of the these plays (what Masons call ritual) seriously is their failing.

But Ben, Masonic ritual is much more than a play as the major Masonic authors of today explicitly state and write. I mean one need only think of Masonic Funeral Services which involve Masonic prayers and benedictions - the language of religion not drama. Last time I looked nobody breaks out into a rendition of the theme song from Cats or The Phantom of the Opera at someone’s funeral procession. It’s more than a play this whole ritual thing; you need only think seriously about it. If you think the guys who think of Masonry as more than a play need some sense kicked into them, you might as well start with the Heads of all Masonic Lodges/Chapters/ and Valleys. For many of them the Light of Masonry provide the Landmarks for their life. The Five Points of Fellowship. The promise to keep whatever a brother tells him secret, secret, even if it be wrong.

Look, the Supreme Council, 33rd degree of the Scottish Rite publishes Liturgies in the USA. You think the word “Liturgy” is just some slip of the tongue? No, it’s meant to be religious. Or what happens when a new Lodge is created? (I know it doesn’t happen as much anymore) But what is the ceremony called when a new Lodge is created? The term used is explicitly religious: Consecration. The Master and Grand Chaplain are there. The Masonic Mansion is to be tiled on Holy Ground. From the ritual: “the ground we are about to tread is holy.
Q: What rendered it holy?
A : The name of God impressed on it; who has
declared ‘Where my name is there I am’ and
therefore must be holy."

This goes way beyond drama and one has to be willfully blind I respectfully submit to not admit as much. You don’t think I know Freemasons and what the Lodge means to them or how it has changed their religious beliefs, and not necessarily in good ways. Arguably, they are mostly one or two generations older than me, but I see how religiously they took the whole thing. The Catholic Church back in the nineties I believe in its study group asserted that Masonry no longer gets the secondary-school educated honors students, but all the more reason one sees guys eat up all the pseudo-history they learn at the Lodge, or at their Chapters, or during the Scottish Rite weekend Reunions and ceremonies. The funniest and saddest was when one Mason (who sang in the church choir) explained to me in all seriousness how he could be dropped anywhere in the world and by Masonic gestures and signs be able to communicate with other ancient peoples. (that’s something Wilmshurst propagated and his books are still sold at Masonic stores).

There is a major stress on Masonry’s esotericism and symbolism. What other society tries to bring in Zoroastrianism, Osiris myths, the Kabbalah, etc. all together in a mishmash to teach life lessons? Look at the papers published at Heredom for Masonic education, and these are modern essays.

You have Altars, Temples, Masonic Bibles: this is all more than Grade 11 drama class. You are even instructed on how exactly to place the square and compass upon the Bible or Volume of Sacred Law.

I know of no other drama fraternity that has all these elements of religion, and which religion stresses that its members are to support one another even if it be morally wrong as explained in the Royal Arch Ritual which also has a “High Priest” in its proceedings.

 

[MattofTexas]

But Ben, Masonic ritual is much more than a play as the major Masonic authors of today explicitly state and write. I mean one need only think of Masonic Funeral Services which involve Masonic prayers and benedictions - the language of religion not drama. Last time I looked nobody breaks out into a rendition of the theme song from Cats or The Phantom of the Opera at someone’s funeral procession. It’s more than a play this whole ritual thing; you need only think seriously about it. If you think the guys who think of Masonry as more than a play need some sense kicked into them, you might as well start with the Heads of all Masonic Lodges/Chapters/ and Valleys. For many of them the Light of Masonry provide the Landmarks for their life. The Five Points of Fellowship. The promise to keep whatever a brother tells him secret, secret, even if it be wrong.

Look, the Supreme Council, 33rd degree of the Scottish Rite publishes Liturgies in the USA. You think the word “Liturgy” is just some slip of the tongue? No, it’s meant to be religious. Or what happens when a new Lodge is created? (I know it doesn’t happen as much anymore) But what is the ceremony called when a new Lodge is created? The term used is explicitly religious: Consecration. The Master and Grand Chaplain are there. The Masonic Mansion is to be tiled on Holy Ground. From the ritual: “the ground we are about to tread is holy.
Q: What rendered it holy?
A : The name of God impressed on it; who has
declared ‘Where my name is there I am’ and
therefore must be holy."

This goes way beyond drama and one has to be willfully blind I respectfully submit to not admit as much. You don’t think I know Freemasons and what the Lodge means to them or how it has changed their religious beliefs, and not necessarily in good ways. Arguably, they are mostly one or two generations older than me, but I see how religiously they took the whole thing. The Catholic Church back in the nineties I believe in its study group asserted that Masonry no longer gets the secondary-school educated honors students, but all the more reason one sees guys eat up all the pseudo-history they learn at the Lodge, or at their Chapters, or during the Scottish Rite weekend Reunions and ceremonies. The funniest and saddest was when one Mason (who sang in the church choir) explained to me in all seriousness how he could be dropped anywhere in the world and by Masonic gestures and signs be able to communicate with other ancient peoples. (that’s something Wilmshurst propagated and his books are still sold at Masonic stores).

There is a major stress on Masonry’s esotericism and symbolism. What other society tries to bring in Zoroastrianism, Osiris myths, the Kabbalah, etc. all together in a mishmash to teach life lessons? Look at the papers published at Heredom for Masonic education, and these are modern essays.

You have Altars, Temples, Masonic Bibles: this is all more than Grade 11 drama class. You are even instructed on how exactly to place the square and compass upon the Bible or Volume of Sacred Law.

I know of no other drama fraternity that has all these elements of religion, and which religion stresses that its members are to support one another even if it be morally wrong as explained in the Royal Arch Ritual which also has a “High Priest” in its proceedings.

I fully intend to write the exclusive use musical selections from Broadway at my funeral into my will. But in all seriousness, I think you make a good point. While these things may be drama, they certainly give the appearance of ritual or religious drama. Of course the various things Masons say and do may have symbolic meaning lost to outsiders like ourselves, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are appearing religious in nature (What about the communion held on the Thursday before Easter in the Scottish Rite, or Masonic baptism ), and the implications of some Masonic practices could be said to be religious in meaning (after all, even if Masons aren’t explicitly taught that all faiths are true, or at least equal, isn’t that what is implicitly taught by the use of any VSL on the alter and the refusal to talk about religion in the lodge?). So while I agree that for most American Masons the things of Masonry appear to give no conflict with their religion and have little meaning, if the fundamental nature of what Masonry is and does is in conflict with the Christian faith, we need to be aware of that.

 

[Lochias]

I fully intend to write the exclusive use musical selections from Broadway at my funeral into my will. But in all seriousness, I think you make a good point. While these things may be drama, they certainly give the appearance of ritual or religious drama. Of course the various things Masons say and do may have symbolic meaning lost to outsiders like ourselves, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are appearing religious in nature (What about the communion held on the Thursday before Easter in the Scottish Rite, or Masonic baptism ), and the implications of some Masonic practices could be said to be religious in meaning (after all, even if Masons aren’t explicitly taught that all faiths are true, or at least equal, isn’t that what is implicitly taught by the use of any VSL on the alter and the refusal to talk about religion in the lodge?). So while I agree that for most American Masons the things of Masonry appear to give no conflict with their religion and have little meaning, if the fundamental nature of what Masonry is and does is in conflict with the Christian faith, we need to be aware of that.

Yes, indeed. I figure, if I’m going to live my life as Christ would want me to, I can’t indulge in actions and organizations that diminish Him in any way, shape or form.

 

[benjohnson]

Doing a bit of research… I’m finding that there was a push to make Masonry more than just a fraternity or benevolence organisation in beginning the in the early 1800’s. I don’t think it ever become a religion, but about this time is when you started seeing the different rites with the extended degrees.

If it’s any consolation, here in Washington, there’s so few people who even remember the differing degrees that it’s a struggle to see them all.

Taken out of context, the mere mention of ‘high priest’ sounds like we’re up to something horrid - frankly, it would up being an old man in a silly hat telling me to be nice to widows and orphans, and to not divulge the silly handshake I was about to get.

I’ve been a proponent of letting everybody see the ritual - they are kinda neat in an old-fashioned sort of way. And if there’s anything amiss, we should be open to scrutiny. Frankly, with the advent of the internet, the rituals are open anyways though there’s a lot of super-crazy people out there promulgating their weird versions as what happens.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Taken out of context, the mere mention of ‘high priest’ sounds like we’re up to something horrid - frankly, it would up being an old man in a silly hat telling me to be nice to widows and orphans, and to not divulge the silly handshake I was about to get.

That’s a bit disingenuous. The term “High Priest” is taken from the Royal Arch Degree Ceremony. In the Holy Royal Arch you are not swearing simply to not divulge some “silly handshake”. Firstly, you are swearing by the Bible to extricate any fellow Royal Arch Mason from any difficulty even if he be in the wrong. That’s an immoral obligation made on the Bible. Secondly, the only widows and orphans mentioned are those of fellow Royal Arch Masons. Thirdly, though you are taught in Craft Masonry that God’s Name has been lost (in other words you are lied to in the first three Masonic Degrees), in the Holy Royal Arch you are taught that God’s Omnific Name has been found and was there all along:

As we three did agree,
In peace, love, and unity,
The Sacred Word to keep,
So we three do agree,
In peace, love, and unity,
The Sacred Word to search;
Until we three,
Or three such as we, shall agree
To close this Royal Arch.

The Sacred (boy-oh-boy) Word is Jahbalon. You learn that you cannot utter God’s Secret Masonic Name Jah-Bal-On, but only one syllable of it in the company of three Royal Arch Masons. Jah-Bal-On or Jah-Bul-On is a mongrel amalgamation of names for gods in Syriac, Chaldean, Egyptian the Mason is taught. Baal, the second syllable in the mongrel name, or the trisyllable word as some Masons call it, of course was the heathen god of the Old Testament that Jehovah had to fight.
**
On**? Well, just look at the Masonic Heirloom Bible for an explanation - the Bible used in Masonic Temples to this day for all the rituals and prayers and degrees. The Masonic Bible:

"Q. What is the significance of this name ON in Masonry?
A. This is a significant word in Royal Arch Masonry, and refers to the city of On in Egypt, and indirectly to the sun-god Ra, who represented to the Egyptians much the same conception of Deity as represented by the name Jehovah among the Hebrews. The city of On was the chief seat of the worship of the god Ra; Joseph’s wife, Asenath, was the daughter of Poti-Pherah, the chief priest in the Temple of Ra at On."

On, or Heliopolis was where the Egyptian Sun-God was worshiped and later Osiris, which gods have nothing to do with ethical monotheism, as does neither Baal.

At this stage you have to ask yourself as a Christian, is this all just a joke as you aver when you say the High Priest is just a guy with a funny hat, or are you committing blasphemy by bringing the Holy Bible into this ritual which Bible contains the Commandment not to use God’s Name in vain. (Indeed, some chapters have now tried to hide this mongrel name, not because they thought it wrong, but because the profane non-Masons started asking about it).

The Bible contains the words and deeds of Jesus Christ - the Resurrection, the Sermon on the Mount. It contains the letters of St. Paul who risked life and limb to spread the Christian faith. And here you are using this Holy Book in a ceremony as you say with maybe some guy in a “funny hat” to learn about the Egyptian Sun-God among others and swearing to overlook morality when it comes to a fellow Royal Arch Mason’s trouble.

We teach our kids about the faith using the Bible. Our parents may have gifted them to us at our First Communion so that we may live as Catholic Christians. And here you guys are using the same book for ceremonies with men in funny hats apparently and swearing not to reveal handshakes, you aver. No, it’s more than that for those who actually wish to think about it, and I realize many guys don’t wish to think about it but that doesn’t make it not dreadfully wrong.

Either you worship Jesus Christ and respect the Bible, or you use the latter for ceremonies with guys and “funny hats” to learn about God’s long, lost name which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

In posting this I thought is this not being harsh ? But then, I thought obviously not. The onus is not on Christianity or the Bible, it’s on the Masons who claim they absolutely need to use the Bible for their oaths and rituals with men in “funny hats” calling themselves High Priest.

 

[gamewell45]

Sure, I’ll try.

If Masons do not put any one religion’s diety or God above the other, but instead let “God” mean “pretty much anything”, how do you think that makes God feel? If a devout Catholic professes God as historically and objectively understood by the Catholic Church, how can that person ever actually call himself “devout” if he allows his blessed and loved creator’s name to mean “pretty much anything by anyone” for the sake of being in a clubhouse?

How is that showing actual devotion to God at all? Do you see the problem, and how the Church and the Masons are diametrically opposed? Do you see how quickly the Masons strip God of all His wonderful truth and meaning?

If I understand you correctly my response is that Mason’s do not strip God of all of His wonderful truth as when praying each Mason is praying to the God or Supreme Being of his choice and as such, the truth and meaning is maintained.

That being said, each religion has its own teachings and each member, if he finds it is in conflict with his spiritual beliefs, would need to decide whether or not Freemasonry is an organization that he can belong to.

 

[ffg]

If I understand you correctly my response is that Mason’s do not strip God of all of His wonderful truth as when praying each Mason is praying to the God or Supreme Being of his choice and as such, the truth and meaning is maintained.

That being said, each religion has its own teachings and each member, if he finds it is in conflict with his spiritual beliefs, would need to decide whether or not Freemasonry is an organization that he can belong to.

Absolutely agree with your second point, thus the title of the thread and discussion focus here in. Many times you’ll get an us against them sub-conversation with evidence pointing to the good and the bad of the organization.

Thus it is important to do as you say: understand one’s Church’s position. If done in a good spirit, logic would choose faith first.

With regard to your first point. I can worship my keyboard here, that does not bring truth or meaning. I can bring it to a lodge and worship it as well. Since we know Truth exists in simple terms like math and other observations, it’s not hard to conclude it exists in the divine realm.

Sitting to the side and watching someone worship their keyboard or any god other than God is indirectly supporting such worship as acceptable, and it goes against basic Christian principles (instructions) regarding spreading the Truth.

 

[ffg]

Doing a bit of research… I’m finding that there was a push to make Masonry more than just a fraternity or benevolence organisation in beginning the in the early 1800’s. I don’t think it ever become a religion, but about this time is when you started seeing the different rites with the extended degrees.
QUOTE]

Hi Ben!

I have a question about this part.

Since I think most of us can conclude that religion on earth is generally used for the purpose of hope in something great after death on earth.

Why do the Mason’s have “Masonic Funerals” if not a religion?

Thanks!

 

[gamewell45]

benjohnson;10681630:

Doing a bit of research… I’m finding that there was a push to make Masonry more than just a fraternity or benevolence organisation in beginning the in the early 1800’s. I don’t think it ever become a religion, but about this time is when you started seeing the different rites with the extended degrees.
QUOTE]

Hi Ben!

I have a question about this part.

Since I think most of us can conclude that religion on earth is generally used for the purpose of hope in something great after death on earth.

Why do the Mason’s have “Masonic Funerals” if not a religion?

Thanks!

A Masonic Funeral Service is much like a funeral service put on by a local volunteer fire or police department; it is a gathering and remembrance of the deceased. Prayers are given for the deceased and family members and nothing more Freemasonry is not a religion nor a substitute for religion. If one is looking for religion it would be best that they go to their house of worship and find it there…

 

[ffg]

Interesting website with a lot of information … Interesting letters

themasonictrowel.com/leadership/road_master/hiram_book/sections/section9.htm

Hi Gamewell,

I think you are confusing funeral with honors. We just buried my Grandma. There was a Catholic funeral and full military honors.

Are you saying that the Mason’s don’t do funerals?

A religion in general isn’t dertermined as such by it’s members anyway. It either is or isn’t.

I will get some links and such later. I have not time!