Why cant God just communicate with us directly?

[zro_x]

i cant imagine why anyone would find that oppressive and “unbearable”. much less that many would. we dont see anyone being terrified of all those cameras around everywhere we go.

Most are not immediately aware of the cameras. Even when they are, they know that the operators are not all-powerful. They have the hope of rebellion if things go awry. Rebels against god have no hope of success. Not only that, but the operators of the cameras do not judge every single thing you do, and produce consequences for them, as god does. Keeping hidden from the world at large may allow god to bring people closer to him that would otherwise rebel and despair.

if you are the only one hearing stuff, then of course. but if everybody hears the same message from the same voice from the same person. it becomes normal. the opposite would become true…if you dont hear anything you should see a doctor!

right. That’s exactly the point I’m making. Locutions have to be on a global scale or not at all. And they can’t be on a global scale, at least not at this point, because of the rebellion it would cause among unrepentant sinners.

cultists & extremists can be very spiritual. so what you said is true if spirituality is more important than being on the correct path.

I think that, in a certain sense, it is. I think we will be judged on how close we are to god after our death. Devout Muslims, Jews, and Hindus are likely closer to god than nominal Catholics. Being on the right path is of course important in this life, but it is possible that a few extremist Muslims blowing up a few buildings is a whole lot less damage than what would be caused by a full scale unrepentant sinner rebellion.

why not both?

Because even God has to make trade-offs. We know this because God apparently thinks that the eternal bliss that free union with him creates is worth a few souls in hell. It must be logically impossible to achieve a greater sense of Joy than through free will, and god cannot do what is logically impossible. God gives us earthly happiness whenever it isn’t in the least a detriment to our spiritual lives.

riiiiiiiiiight…

I’d ask what makes you so skeptical about this, but that would probably be a subject for another thread.

 

[Peter_Plato]

1. The parable of the passive friend. Let’s talk about my friend from college, we’ll call him Jack. We hung out a lot, he was a great-hearted guy, we had some laughs and some tears, did some things we wouldn’t want to come up during a Senate campaign, and so on. Over the years, he has been consistently non-responsive when I invited people to parties, when I needed help moving, whatever. Now on your model, maybe he’s doing that so that I will trust him MORE, or somehow be offered the chance to develop a more pure form of friendship. For most of us, though, we would - at some point along the curve - begin to trust him LESS. Now, if we imagine that same parable, and take away the time we spent together in college sharing (mis-)adventures and so on, the problem with the PURE TRUST model stands in even sharper contrast.

Now I can even allow that maybe he is still a great guy in general. Maybe I hear of him helping other people move, maybe he does something good for his community, and so on. That doesn’t make ME feel loved or watched over or like I should cancel plans to run off and do something when he asks. (OK, the last part doesn’t hold completely, because if I heard a booming voice come out of a clear sky saying “Neoplatonist, go conquer Asia Minor” or “Go to Africa and feed the hungry” I’d be packed by the end of the day.)

No, something Clarence or Imogene wrote down in a book about a voice they heard doesn’t count as me being asked. Nor does seeing a picture of suffering kids in Africa, which could be there (wherever it is I see it) for any of a thousand reasons. (Unless, of course, it just appears in front of me in mid-air.)

This “parable” is interesting because it helps to point out an important difference between God and “other” beings (even of the human kind) that exist around us. Other beings are not capable of being “within” us as God is.

Jack is not capable of “being” or becoming you at a level more profound than you are to yourself. When Jack “disappears” from your life every indication is that he has gone away from you because “other” beings have spacial location separate from yours. God is not limited by space (or time) so when he appears to disappear he might actually be in a non-spacial “location” inside of you, so when you find yourself (let me know when that happens) you will also find God.

*“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” (John 17:20-27)
*

 

[zro_x]

@ peter plato:

why are you arguing with Sophion at all? Is it not because you hope to convince him that you are right? If you do, then he will change his mind because of plain words, not by some sort of mystical god-speech that we have to fine tune ourselves to hear. So Sophion doesn’t hear the devine music. You apperantly are convinced that words- your words even, rather than god’s, can change his mind. Can’t god present your argument in person to Sophion much more eloquently than you? The very fact that you hope to convince him through words is testament to the fact that you believe words, plain and simple, can change a person’s mind, and can even be more effective than the divine music.

 

[englishredrose]

Or should we be asking why some people cannot communicate with God directly rather than asking why cannot God just communicate with us directly? If you are talking about communication then that is all forms that being used and not just speech and I 100% believe that God Communicates with me because I regualarly, whenever I am aware of Gods’ Presence I feel God. Sometimes God draws me to Him too and I feel His Presence. He doesn’t necessarily use words to communicate with us and so we have to find ways that works for us to learn how to be with God and Communicate. If we are not listening then we wont hear no matter how tightly He hugs us. I say I feel God and that way He communicates with me But no doubt you will argue I am protestant when it comes to this question. But I argue I think we have to understand that communication is more than just speech or written word here and we have to learn how to listen to God for us to Hear that He is indeed Communicating with us.

 

[sophion]

Not everyone hears or appreciates good music.

but every normal person could hear something. even the deaf could feel its vibrations.

What you are saying is that God should change his tune so that you can hear or appreciate it better rather than entertaining the possibility that it is you who needs to put on better “listening” ears or “seeing” eyes to receive what already exists.

what tune?

When God says, “Woe to those who call evil, ‘Good,’ and good,‘Evil!’” He is not making a statement about his inability to create good, but of the problem with beings who are supposed to know good, but don’t. If you ask yourself, “What is the nature of good?” and you have no answer, that is problematic, don’t you agree?

how do you know its god who said that?

 

[sophion]

I 100% believe that God Communicates with me because I regualarly, whenever I am aware of Gods’ Presence I feel God.

please tell us what message he communicated with you.

 

[sophion]

And they can’t be on a global scale, at least not at this point, because of the rebellion it would cause among unrepentant sinners.

your rebellion assumption is completely unfounded. faith has been around for thousands of years where people believe that they are under constant surveillance. no problem at all.

even if there are rebellions, then let them rebel. that world still cant possibly match the mess we have right now. so whats the problem?

I think that, in a certain sense, it is. I think we will be judged on how close we are to god after our death. Devout Muslims, Jews, and Hindus are likely closer to god than nominal Catholics. Being on the right path is of course important in this life, but it is possible that a few extremist Muslims blowing up a few buildings is a whole lot less damage than what would be caused by a full scale unrepentant sinner rebellion.

ok if thats your opinion.

for me why not both? spiritually strong in the right path? look at the story of abraham- enjoyed the best of both worlds.

Because even God has to make trade-offs. We know this because God apparently thinks that the eternal bliss that free union with him creates is worth a few souls in hell. It must be logically impossible to achieve a greater sense of Joy than through free will, and god cannot do what is logically impossible. God gives us earthly happiness whenever it isn’t in the least a detriment to our spiritual lives.

in the story of job he had both. religious folks tries to have both as well.
one does not contradict the other.

I’d ask what makes you so skeptical about this, but that would probably be a subject for another thread.

the quote says costs did not matter. but look around you, no god can even spare the time to get personal with anyone.

 

[Peter_Plato]

@ peter plato:

why are you arguing with Sophion at all? Is it not because you hope to convince him that you are right? If you do, then he will change his mind because of plain words, not by some sort of mystical god-speech that we have to fine tune ourselves to hear. So Sophion doesn’t hear the devine music. You apperantly are convinced that words- your words even, rather than god’s, can change his mind. Can’t god present your argument in person to Sophion much more eloquently than you? The very fact that you hope to convince him through words is testament to the fact that you believe words, plain and simple, can change a person’s mind, and can even be more effective than the divine music.

If I thought Sophion was a a rock, I wouldn’t be using words. If he didn’t make a statement about his problem discerning God, I would have had no reason to make any response.

Do you believe God does not use instrumental means to “speak” to others, that lyrics cannot be included as part of the music?

By “mystical god-speech” you make it sound as if I am promoting some esoteric brand of Gnosticism. That is not my point. My point is that truth and goodness are very basic to our being and does not require complex telescopes and sophisticated mathematical formulas to find it, but what is required is a fine-tuning of ourselves (authenticity and simplicity) to make these more apparent.

He is complaining that he cannot see the truth because it is not obvious enough. My thought is that he is not seeing how obvious it is because his focal point needs to be reset or that things appear blurry because his instrument (self) may not be adjusted properly. He just may have never considered this as a possibility.

I cannot make adjustments for him and (this is important) neither can God, when it comes to receptivity. I am suggesting that he try self-tuning as a strategy rather than go on insisting that the problem is an external one that requires a change in the signal volume or frequency coming from the “outer” source.

Sorry for sounding “shrill” to your ears.

 

[Lochias]

the quote says costs did not matter. but look around you, no god can even spare the time to get personal with anyone.

Beg to differ. He’s very personable with me…He just does it on His terms, which is His right, and is the best way. I would not be the person I am, with the strength to be able to take things that even two years ago would have reduced me to nothing, if He hadn’t groomed me to hear His voice in all the ways He’s allowed it to.

And I had to submit to that grooming, to the process of learning how to hear Him…it didn’t just happen like a P.A. announcement. God loves me far, far too much to be so trite.

 

[sophion]

Beg to differ. He’s very personable with me…He just does it on His terms, which is His right, and is the best way. I would not be the person I am, with the strength to be able to take things that even two years ago would have reduced me to nothing, if He hadn’t groomed me to hear His voice in all the ways He’s allowed it to.

And I had to submit to that grooming, to the process of learning how to hear Him…it didn’t just happen like a P.A. announcement. God loves me far, far too much to be so trite.

and how is god personable with you? please elaborate. thanks.

 

[sophion]

He is complaining that he cannot see the truth because it is not obvious enough. My thought is that he is not seeing how obvious it is because his focal point needs to be reset or that things appear blurry because his instrument (self) may not be adjusted properly. He just may have never considered this as a possibility.

ok so how do i adjust my ‘focal points’?

 

[Lochias]

and how is god personable with you? please elaborate. thanks.

In many ways: Versus of Scripture that pertain to my struggles in life, the kindness and guidance of the priests in the Church, and in deeper and more personal ways that I won’t get into much detail here. Those didn’t happen right off the bat, however.

Edit: And, especially in the Sacraments, particularly the Eucharist and Confession.

 

[Lochias]

ok so how do i adjust my ‘focal points’?

Make the effort of doing things like going to Mass, the Sacraments, Adoration, and all the other places God is present. You’ve got to step into God’s House before He’ll sit down for an in-depth conversation…that’s only right and proper.

 

[sophion]

Make the effort of doing things like going to Mass, the Sacraments, Adoration, and all the other places God is present. You’ve got to step into God’s House before He’ll sit down for an in-depth conversation…that’s only right and proper.

done that. anything else?

 

[EmilyCatholic]

Hi, I haven’t read all the replies so sorry if this has already been said. I think your question is a very good and perfectly logical one. I think your best bet is to google the Catechism and go to the first section, and look up the “God’s Revelation to Man”. It will answer your question (hopefully!). All the best

 

[Lochias]

done that. anything else?

Do it more, every day, and have faith that God is guiding you and is with you even when you feel absolutely nothing. Jesus never lost faith even when he uttered those mysterious words on the Cross: “Why have You abandoned me?”

That is the example we were left with. We can do no less, if we truly want to try.

 

[sophion]

Do it more, every day, and have faith that God is guiding you and is with you even when you feel absolutely nothing. Jesus never lost faith even when he uttered those mysterious words on the Cross: “Why have You abandoned me?”

That is the example we were left with. We can do no less, if we truly want to try.

i did so for many years. oh well.

In many ways: Versus of Scripture that pertain to my struggles in life, the kindness and guidance of the priests in the Church, and in deeper and more personal ways that I won’t get into much detail here. Those didn’t happen right off the bat, however.

Edit: And, especially in the Sacraments, particularly the Eucharist and Confession.

Being personable with a book doesnt mean the book is personable with you. Same thing with that eucharist waffer.

I can understand how priests can be personable with you. But they are not God. I was asking about God.

 

[pig]

done that. anything else?

The widows mite?

 

[Peter_Plato]

ok so how do i adjust my ‘focal points’?

First of all by not thinking that the message is merely a “piece” of information or knowledge, your possession of which will make everything right.

Second, the current position of your “focal points” will determine how they need to be adjusted. In some sense, that is dependent upon you or at least a knowledge of you that I, who do not know your current “you,” do not have adequate access to provide much that will be useful to you.

That’s the best that I can do for you. That does not mean there is no one close enough to you that could not help you out. That depends upon your willingness to seek some insight.

The extent to which you are not content with your own answers could be an indicator of your readiness. On the other hand, the fact that you seem so secure and confident in your own views might mean no matter what anyone else says, you won’t be open to it.

 

[Lochias]

i did so for many years. oh well.

What exactly did you do, how often?

Being personable with a book doesnt mean the book is personable with you. Same thing with that eucharist waffer.

I’m not talking about personable with a book, but with God’s literal word…as for the Eucharist, I can only assume that you weren’t predisposed to listen. I used to be that way. It took a lot of shaking up in my life to make me realize where my priorities needed to lie.

I can understand how priests can be personable with you. But they are not God. I was asking about God.

The Church is the institution that Jesus left in order to guide us and help us. The priests act in persona Christi when they are helping you, guiding you and celebrating Mass for you.

For you to dismiss them, the Eucharist, and the Bible so easily reveals a distinct lack of belief in God on your part…if you don’t believe that God can act through flawed humanity, out of love and compassion, then what possible hope do you have that He’ll ever work through you, or for you?