Why cant God just communicate with us directly?

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Thank you for quoting scripture … and seemingly applying it well. I will reread this a couple times but this is my initial impression.

I liked Socrates too (Monotheistic non-Jewish pre-Christian curmudgeon that he was).
But I’m a little confused your calling your religion “Socratic”.

I often thought that term applied to questioning everything with great scrutiny without yet being a cynic who can’t learn anything if the proposal or teachings weather that scrutiny.
Hadn’t thought of it as a religion … but a school of thought preceding Aristotelian logic.

That is to say an applied philosophy that uses deduction, induction and a sort of mathematics to get at the truth of things. Or closer to the truth by eliminating as many errors as can be detected.

Socrates had a belief in ONE God … and to our way of thinking, got the number right.
But I don’t remember him founding a religion or making exclusive claims like Jesus did.

So … is your “Socratic” an aspect of your Christianity or something else. Since you did quote scripture like someone who is rather familiar with it.

However … my curiosity is a deviation from the thread so … I’ll just remark that I thought
your answer was good and the scripture applied. 🙂
If we use the word “religion” loosely as a system of beliefs, then, at base, my natural belief system is Socratic because his approach was one of sincerely questioning without presumptuously dismissing what is not completely understood.
 
Why “should” God show me a miracle? I’m not saying he “should.” I’m saying he said he would come see me and he hasn’t. That causes me frustration and confusion. We try to alleviate the confusion and frustration of people we love and care about, even if it is just to say, “it will make sense later.” I don’t see/hear any consolation, so the premise that he loves me the way a “person” -even taken analogously -would.
See post #281.
 
However, I think that the point of this post was to ask why god stays hidden from us, and that particular argument doesn’t answer the question…

… The book I described appeared out of thin air to every person on earth.
Recall:

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.(John 14:22-27)
 
@ peter plato
Do you not see an inherent problem with believing that God is indeed a Person (or three) and then attempt to answer “for him” what he should or shouldn’t do? To assume that anyone else (besides God) can answer that question is to deny the very autonomy of God that comes with using the word “God” in any way approaching a traditional theistic sense.
I am not aware of anyone who tries to “read the mind” of God on their own initiative to fathom why God does what he does without resorting to some evidential data in support of a claim.
how about you?
My point is that truth and goodness are very basic to our being and does not require complex telescopes and sophisticated mathematical formulas to find it, but what is required is a fine-tuning of ourselves (authenticity and simplicity) to make these more apparent.
He is complaining that he cannot see the truth because it is not obvious enough. My thought is that he is not seeing how obvious it is because his focal point needs to be reset or that things appear blurry because his instrument (self) may not be adjusted properly. He just may have never considered this as a possibility.
I cannot make adjustments for him and (this is important) neither can God, when it comes to receptivity. I am suggesting that he try self-tuning as a strategy rather than go on insisting that the problem is an external one that requires a change in the signal volume or frequency coming from the “outer” source.
It seems to me that you are perfectly fine with suggesting reasons for why god does what he does. Aren’t you here speculating that the reason why God does not speak plainly to Sophion is that he needs to fine tune himself and learn to listen to the more quiet promptings of god? Aren’t you trying to answer that question for god? are you not trying to guess at god’s mind and motives as one of the clay?
Your claim seems to be that God should be the one to be completely transparent and immediately responsive to every human being or he couldn’t be God.
So God must conform to your way of doing things or he is not worthy of being God?
I was wrong, and too quick to speak. I see now that once one accepts god’s existence, and that he is tri-omni, seeming contradictions in his nature and motives (such as the PoDH), are resolved simply by the fact that god’s ways are so far above our own, and his logic is perfect. If god exists, and god is tri-omni, god must have good, sound reasons for remaining behind the scenes. This tells us that the logic is out there, but it doesn’t tell us what that logic is!

As I said in the previous post, I do not demand that god do anything for me. Being completely dependent on god, I am not entitled to my next breath. I do not presume to know better than God how the world works or how it should be run.

nevertheless, I believe that it is a spiritually healthy practice to try to deduce god’s motives where possible. There are many aspects of god’s nature that theologians freely speculate about, which are not necessarily held explicitly by scripture or church revelation. Some of these include the the more complicated facets of the trinity and the incarnation. If theologians are free to speculate about god’s nature, which is as high above us as his motives, shouldn’t we be able to speculate about god’s motives as well? It is a true joy to come across a characteristic of god by the process of pure reason, and I think god meant for us to excercise our rational powers in order to understand him more and more. This is exactly why I think that we can find, or at least attempt to approach the logic behind God’s hiddenness. In fact, this is the logic behind my explanation of God’s hiddenness, as seen in my first post.
Why would god prefer you to grope around blindly in the dark rather than have his will explicitly laid out for you? Perhaps because, in your particular case, god can shape you into the person he wants you to be more effectively from behind the scenes. There is something to be said about the spiritual growth of a person in actively searching for answers to spiritual questions. Perhaps the journey can make certain people spiritually stronger.
(as opposed to being spoonfed facts about god’s nature and motives through revelation and scripture.)
 
FYI:

IQ isn’t fixed at birth, can increase with education

“there is good evidence to support the notion that schooling does make you ‘smarter’ in some general relevant way as measured by IQ tests,”

usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/medical/health/medical/mentalhealth/story/2011-12-27/IQ-isnt-fixed-at-birth-and-can-increase-with-education/52237552/1

thats why educated people are often smarter than those who are not.
Posting a link to a newspaper article is a very poor example to support your thesis.
Education can give you access to more information but what you actually achieve with that education is what defines intelligence.
Proof?
If so much more could be achieved with more widespread education was true we would have had an explosion of Albert Einteins. The sad truth is that is not the case.
So I stand by my assertion.
You can be an uneducated man and still be very intelligent and conversely you can be a highly educated man and be a complete moron.
I have personaly met both kinds.
 
CAN EDUCATION INCREASE INTELLIGENCE

pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed003p1326

the answer is really yes & no, depends on how you define ‘intelligence’. its the yes part that matters. we are smarter than the uneducated people of long ago. 🙂
That is very conceated on your part.:rolleyes:
If the people of long ago where so dumb how come we still cannot explain how the hell they built the pyramids of Giza or the Moai of Easter Island or the Stonehenge monument.
🍿
 
how about you?

It seems to me that you are perfectly fine with suggesting reasons for why god does what he does. Aren’t you here speculating that the reason why God does not speak plainly to Sophion is that he needs to fine tune himself and learn to listen to the more quiet promptings of god? Aren’t you trying to answer that question for god? are you not trying to guess at god’s mind and motives as one of the clay?
I realize this may appear to be a trifling point, but there is a difference between speaking to explain the positive actions of another (putting words in their mouth, or speaking for them) and giving a plausible (as opposed to an implausible) account of why someone has not done what someone else has expected them to do.

If someone “does” either 1) a negative thing like speeding recklessly down the street or 2) a positive thing like donating a fortune to charity, it seems to me that the only one who can provide a proper accounting for their action is the person themselves.

However, when a second party is complaining of the actions of a first party and accusing the original actor of some neglect or malfeasance, it is not inappropriate to defend the first party in their absence by pointing out possible issues with the accusations being made.

I don’t believe I ever made a claim that God’s actual reason was…

I believe my wording was something like, “Did you consider…” Or “Is it possible that…” Or “Scripture says…” Or “Jesus said…”

Suggesting to someone that they may need to make adjustments to hear better is not the same as saying the other party is not talking to them because they are not listening. I never claimed God has stopped communicating because we are not listening, but that God is communicating and we seem to be having problems receiving.

If I gave, in my words, any impression to the contrary, my apologies. That was not my intention.
(as opposed to being spoonfed facts about god’s nature and motives through revelation and scripture.)
This comment is quite revealing. What you seem to be saying is that God spoon feeds through revelation and Scripture, but can communicate with some, ostensibly more mature, individuals by more direct means. I suggest you reconsider this claim. It might be revealing in terms of how you designate the worth of some to be above others.

Clue: God directly and objectively impressed upon Pharaoh his need for conversion of heart by a series of outward wonders and signs. No spoon feeding of Scripture, just bang “over the head” wonders that still didn’t work. Jesus had to spoon feed his Disciples for three years, along with miracles and wonders, but they still didn’t really get it until after Pentecost.
God the Father gave Jesus no “direct sign” except, perhaps, a dove at his Baptism by John, but Jesus fully revealed the Father to those around him, who mostly didn’t get it even when his message was accompanied by signs and miracles. Jesus simply “allowed himself” to be a channel for the Father, to do his will, under the assumption that the Father’s will was all that was required. He didn’t need any additional convincing or assurance, even when his life was held in the balance. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus didn’t say, “Show me a sign and I’ll do your will.” He said, “Your will be done!” That was it. Prayerful listening and trust.
 
That is very conceated on your part.:rolleyes:
If the people of long ago where so dumb how come we still cannot explain how the hell they built the pyramids of Giza or the Moai of Easter Island or the Stonehenge monument.
🍿
The precise term is “chronological snobbery” (as coined by CS Lewis or was it Chesterton?)

It was Lewis! :doh2:
 
First of all by not thinking that the message is merely a “piece” of information or knowledge, your possession of which will make everything right.

Second, the current position of your “focal points” will determine how they need to be adjusted. In some sense, that is dependent upon you or at least a knowledge of you that I, who do not know your current “you,” do not have adequate access to provide much that will be useful to you.

That’s the best that I can do for you. That does not mean there is no one close enough to you that could not help you out. That depends upon your willingness to seek some insight.

The extent to which you are not content with your own answers could be an indicator of your readiness. On the other hand, the fact that you seem so secure and confident in your own views might mean no matter what anyone else says, you won’t be open to it.
that doesnt really tell me anything. 🤷
mostly you just went on blame mode.

i dont think you have an idea what you are talking about. 😊
 
Posting a link to a newspaper article is a very poor example to support your thesis.
Education can give you access to more information but what you actually achieve with that education is what defines intelligence.
Proof?
If so much more could be achieved with more widespread education was true we would have had an explosion of Albert Einteins. The sad truth is that is not the case.
So I stand by my assertion.
You can be an uneducated man and still be very intelligent and conversely you can be a highly educated man and be a complete moron.
I have personaly met both kinds.
like i said its how you define intelligence. i think you see it as raw processing power. like the cpu type and speed of a computer. by that i agree no amount of education will change that. but the intelligence i am referring to is the operating system and apps. no matter how powerful your cpu is if its only running on DOS you wont be able to get much out of it. 😉
 
like i said its how you define intelligence. i think you see it as raw processing power. like the cpu type and speed of a computer. by that i agree no amount of education will change that. but the intelligence i am referring to is the operating system and apps. no matter how powerful your cpu is if its only running on DOS you wont be able to get much out of it. 😉
that isn’t intelligence, that is knowledge. Pigs are intelligent but they don’t know anything, therefore they don’t do anything - build computers, fly to the moon, etc.
 
that doesnt really tell me anything. 🤷
mostly you just went on blame mode.

i dont think you have an idea what you are talking about. 😊
So, you fit into the “the fact that you seem so secure and confident in your own views might mean no matter what anyone else says, you won’t be open to it” category. That’s what I figured, but a confirmation helps.
 
please tell us what message he communicated with you. 🙂
I feel His Love
Is what God communicates to me 🙂

His message of Love is communicated via feeling and I am deeply aware of His Presence and sometimes He ‘comes’ to me and other times I am myself just being with God.

It really is that simple and doesn’t need anything else and I think lots of people forget how simplistic it all is and we want something complicated and as per this thread, argue and debate and discuss when all one needs to do to listen to God communicating with us is stop a minute, mentally stop a minute and Just Be with God. He does Communicate with us and with me especially I simply feel His Love and communicates that with me whenever I am with God. There is no doubt I feel His Love because every time I am just being with God I feel that Love of God. Warm and complete.

I don’t want or need endless conversations with God. I simply desire His Love and I Feel His Love whenever I am just being with Him, being aware of His Presence. When I’ve wanted more, I have not got anywhere but when I’ve accepted His Love I Feel His Love everytime just warm and complete 🙂

Sopion Lots of posts in between since you posted the above question totally missing the point of the opening poster is my personal opinion 🤷

Ps
Thank you by the way because this has helped today:)
 
So, you fit into the “the fact that you seem so secure and confident in your own views might mean no matter what anyone else says, you won’t be open to it” category. That’s what I figured, but a confirmation helps.
confidence does not equate closed mindedness.

i was so confident and secure in being a christian before. look at me now. proof that i’m using my brain. proof that i am open. what about you? are you open?
 
See post #281.
And yet you returned again to an external example to make your case. ?]

The other problem with your model is that a whole bunch of other stuff in the Bible is rendered strange and unhelpful. The booming voice from the sky at Jesus’ baptism by John - was that Jesus, then and NOT a voice from outside him? On the cross, was Jesus shouting to himself about being forsaken? The angels consoling him in the garden, were they inside Jesus too? Did Saul knock himself off his own horse with a flash of light? Did the tongues of fire sprout from inside the Apostle’s heads?

Even within your internal model, however, there is an insurmountable difficulty in discernment. a.) Plenty of people have done plenty of bizarre/evil things because they thought the voice of god inside of them told them it was the right thing. b.) Why would I think voice x inside me was any more real or more right than voice y? The characters in my dreams seem pretty real, does that mean they ARE real? There has to be a connection to something beyond the dream or outside the person against which the conflicting voices can be compared - the things in the dream that don’t match with the real world when I wake up are judged imaginary.

Fundamental, however, is Christ giving us ‘father’ and ‘spouse’ as pardigms. If we can not use those to make sense out of our relationship with God, then we must question whether we can discern between competing explanations within the Bible itself and must, then, turn to something outside the Bible to compare them against just as in the case of our internal voices. The point of this thread is that there is a glaring absence of such things.
 
This comment is quite revealing. What you seem to be saying is that God spoon feeds through revelation and Scripture, but can communicate with some, ostensibly more mature, individuals by more direct means. I suggest you reconsider this claim. It might be revealing in terms of how you designate the worth of some to be above others.
Once again, you misunderstand me. That’s my fault though, because I once again misspoke.

I’m saying that all people, to a greater or lesser degree, can and should attempt to discover more about the mysteries of god’s nature and motives through reason alone, and that this process can often lead people to gain more spritual strength then if god appeared out of nowhere and answered all their questions.

I suppose that the answers about god that are best given to us in spoonfed form can be found in scripture and revelation. I’m just using this as a possible reason for why god does not put all the answers there.
 
And yet you returned again to an external example to make your case. ?]

The other problem with your model is that a whole bunch of other stuff in the Bible is rendered strange and unhelpful. The booming voice from the sky at Jesus’ baptism by John - was that Jesus, then and NOT a voice from outside him? On the cross, was Jesus shouting to himself about being forsaken? The angels consoling him in the garden, were they inside Jesus too? Did Saul knock himself off his own horse with a flash of light? Did the tongues of fire sprout from inside the Apostle’s heads?
The voice at Jesus’ baptism was not intended for Jesus, but for those around him. Why would it be inside his head? The traditional Christian view of God is that of Trinity or three Persons having the same nature. Does personhood or consciousness where God is concerned entail specific location? If God is immaterial that means he is not limited by space. Jesus “became” man which means he constrained his person to physical human nature while he lived on earth, but the Father was not so limited. Are all real phenomena (lights, tongues of fire) necessarily caused by or constrained to physical activity?
Even within your internal model, however, there is an insurmountable difficulty in discernment. a.) Plenty of people have done plenty of bizarre/evil things because they thought the voice of god inside of them told them it was the right thing. b.) Why would I think voice x inside me was any more real or more right than voice y? The characters in my dreams seem pretty real, does that mean they ARE real? There has to be a connection to something beyond the dream or outside the person against which the conflicting voices can be compared - the things in the dream that don’t match with the real world when I wake up are judged imaginary.

Fundamental, however, is Christ giving us ‘father’ and ‘spouse’ as pardigms. If we can not use those to make sense out of our relationship with God, then we must question whether we can discern between competing explanations within the Bible itself and must, then, turn to something outside the Bible to compare them against just as in the case of our internal voices. The point of this thread is that there is a glaring absence of such things.
It seems to me that there is an almost insurmountable problem that you have encountered.

If God is immaterial and comprised of three Persons, then it is impossible to subjectively experience or “know” him through objective means. He is not another thing or “being” in the world that you can see or hear or in any way experience through your senses as you can with other human beings. He is not another “being” but “Being itself.” You could experience things he might do, but that is not “knowing” him on a personal level, which is what we need to do: know, love and serve God. We can’t know him if we just experience what he does or how he “manifests” himself. Those are not “him” in the sense of Person(s).

The only way that knowing God could be possible (and we couldn’t love him without knowing him) would be in some direct way. If God is “being itself” then we have direct contact with him through our being. We exist because we exist in him. If we are beings it is because we have our being “in him.” The ground of our being is being itself - the being of God. This is the only way that we can come to “know” him directly.

Yet when you are asking, “Why does God not communicate with us directly?” what that means is any form of “communication” will not be effective in letting us know God directly because God cannot be sufficiently known through any objective means. It has to be subject to subject, being to Being.

I am not talking about “in our imagination” or “in our thoughts” or “in some act of conceiving him,” I mean in the very act of being, the ground of who and what we are. We don’t try to imagine God or “think” him into being, we just “are” in Him, simply by being.

Your problem with “making sense” of this relationship is more of a incidental question. Why is there a need to do so? Perhaps we do not need to apply some secondary means to decipher the relationship as if that is more important than the relationship itself. The relationship itself may be the fount of sense, it could make its own sense.

The problem, it would seem to me is that of dealing with “the world,” a world which seems so contrary to this intrinsic relationship with God.

I think the Church provides a great answer to this problem. If the Church is the “Body of Christ” then the members of the Church are individuals who are in communion with Being, the Being of God in the depth of their own beings. We are not alone. Some may be in better communion with God than others, but the point is that the Church is there to help each of us be in better communion with God. The tradition and authority of the Church is the “objective” means by which we can “check” our progress so that we as individuals don’t do the bizarre/evil things that subjective voices suggest. Recall, however, that God is not in those imagined voices or even in our thoughts.

The existence of objective “guides” like the Church, Scripture, lives of the Saints, Tradition and Doctrines are all there to confirm and help us to deepen our relationship with God through the core of our being to Being itself. There is the direct communication you are asking for. The objective realities are there to assist and guide us, but they are not, fundamentally, the teleological end of our quest, just signposts to help us be one with God. It is more a matter of being in direct union rather than having direct communication! Communication is necessarily mediated whereas communion is not.
 
like i said its how you define intelligence. i think you see it as raw processing power. like the cpu type and speed of a computer. by that i agree no amount of education will change that. but the intelligence i am referring to is the operating system and apps. no matter how powerful your cpu is if its only running on DOS you wont be able to get much out of it. 😉
😃 Here read this article:

huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/humans-getting-dumber-stanford-study_n_2121823.html

:rolleyes:
 
If God is immaterial and comprised of three Persons, then it is impossible to subjectively experience or “know” him through objective means. He is not another thing or “being” in the world that you can see or hear or in any way experience through your senses as you can with other human beings. He is not another “being” but “Being itself.” You could experience things he might do, but that is not “knowing” him on a personal level, which is what we need to do: know, love and serve God. We can’t know him if we just experience what he does or how he “manifests” himself. Those are not “him” in the sense of Person(s).
This is essentially the same argument you were having with Sophion. What you say here is true, but you believe that direct communicationcan can get Neoplatonist to agree with you. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t be having this discussion. But God can manifest himself to neoplatonist and make the exact same argument you are making by communication, only much better. He isn’t. Perhaps god isn’t appearing to neoplatonist because no matter what god says, Neoplatonist won’t listen. But if that were the case, then certainly nothing that you can say will change his mind. If you believe that direct communication can influence Neoplatonist, the reason you give for why god doesn’t directly communicate with him just doesn’t work.
 
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