Why can't homosexuals see that their behavior is an abomination?

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It’s sad to me that anyone would be compelled to post this as a topic for Catholic discussion. This kind of sentiment is rooted is us vs them thinking…it is divisive…it does nothing for unity and is not in the service of Love IMHO. They are us, and we are One.

Unless we get that…one could easily ask… Why can’t heterosexuals see that their behavior towards homosexuals is an abomination?
 
It’s sad to me that anyone would be compelled to post this as a topic for Catholic discussion. This kind of sentiment is rooted is us vs them thinking…it is divisive…it does nothing for unity and is not in the service of Love IMHO. They are us, and we are One.

Unless we get that…one could easily ask… Why can’t heterosexuals see that their behavior towards homosexuals is an abomination?
It’s a valid and honest question that I wanted to explore. I had no desire to belittle homosexuals in and of themselves. In fact, I’m a strong supporter of gay rights even though I do not condone homosexual behavior.
 
It’s a valid and honest question that I wanted to explore. I had no desire to belittle homosexuals in and of themselves. In fact, I’m a strong supporter of gay rights even though I do not condone homosexual behavior.
You consider “Hey homosexuals, your behavior is an abomination” not belittling? Seems neither valid nor honest to me…
 
I have to say, I almost always only hear the word “abomination” coming from the lips of firebrands of the Protestant persuasion and certainly from a very judgemental and aggressive standpoint.

I prefer not to use such aggressive language towards people who have SSA. It serves no purpose and only serves to entrench the feeling of victimhood (at the hands of the Church) into such people and further solidify their own arguments in their minds.

If I was told, say by an Orthodox Jew, that I was an “abomination” for wearing a coat of mixed fibres, I would, quite understandably, be very indignant and offended. It certainly wouldn’t endear him to me.
 
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my sheep."
 
I have to say, I almost always only hear the word “abomination” coming from the lips of firebrands of the Protestant persuasion and certainly from a very judgemental and aggressive standpoint.

I prefer not to use such aggressive language towards people who have SSA. It serves no purpose and only serves to entrench the feeling of victimhood (at the hands of the Church) into such people and further solidify their own arguments in their minds.

If I was told, say by an Orthodox Jew, that I was an “abomination” for wearing a coat of mixed fibres, I would, quite understandably, be very indignant and offended. It certainly wouldn’t endear him to me.
I believe one must say what they want to say. Again, I have a deep LOVE for the gay community, but more importantly, I now know that homosexual behavior is an abomination in the eyes of God! Instead of gay pride, bow your head in humility when it comes to the things that we know is a sin.
 
I believe one must say what they want to say. Again, I have a deep LOVE for the gay community, but more importantly, I now know that homosexual behavior is an abomination in the eyes of God! Instead of gay pride, bow your head in humility when it comes to the things that we know is a sin.
We are required to guard our words as well as our hearts and our minds, for we can do damage to others by what we say even if that is not our intent.

I contend that your strident and aggressive language subverts the intent that may be in your heart - i.e you will by being hectoring and unnecessarily preachy drive away the very people you wish to ‘save’.

Choose more diplomatic language rather than that which almost all would agree is very old-fashioned fire-and-brimstone Old-Testament stuff.
 
We are required to guard our words as well as our hearts and our minds, for we can do damage to others by what we say even if that is not our intent.

I contend that your strident and aggressive language subverts the intent that may be in your heart - i.e you will by being hectoring and unnecessarily preachy drive away the very people you wish to ‘save’.

Choose more diplomatic language rather than that which almost all would agree is very old-fashioned fire-and-brimstone Old-Testament stuff.
One may also save souls by speaking up when it comes to Truth.
 
It’s a valid and honest question that I wanted to explore. I had no desire to belittle homosexuals in and of themselves. In fact, I’m a strong supporter of gay rights even though I do not condone homosexual behavior.
Robert,

I do not doubt your sincerity. What you have found here is that asking “why” generates a whole lot of information that may or may not be useful. Never ask yourself, your brain, why about anything, it will drive you insane and you will get few answers. Your brain, my brain, does not resolve any problem with “why” questions. With that in mind, as you say you wanted to explore a question honestly may I suggest the following:

Use What and How…

Homosexuals have abominable behavior…this is the problem you see and the best I can offer you is to not judge it and to suggest it as a problem that relates to what you believe, for instance…

Homosexual behavior is not healthy and it is against Church teaching…a true and relative statement…that is the what…

then, you say you want them to realize this and someone says speaking the truth is helpful…Ok…
How can we be more effective in helping active Homosexuals see that their behavior is not healthy and it is against Church teaching…what can we as Catholics do to help that cause and be instruments to aid the salvation of their souls…
Now this would be something that would not cause a negative reaction from most, you can’t please everyone, however in light of asking How to address a What…you may find a better response…

It is your thread…do as you wish…
 
One may also save souls by speaking up when it comes to Truth.
Quite.

But remember that while someone may be doing something while being unaware that the thing they are doing is abominable and by being so told immediately realise or stop doing it, to tell someone that they are acting abominably when what it is they are doing is, to them, innate to their own being and sense of self then you will be striking deep and hard at their own self-identity. As such, most people will instinctively defend themselves against such an attack. What is required in such a situation is profoundly charitable language.

To tell someone that they are or that an aspect of their personality is an abomination is a deeply uncharitable thing to do to someone who you wish to come to a better knowledge of what it is God would prefer them to be.

Whether or not the activities are right or wrong, we are commanded by our faith to treat other people with care and compassion, not judgement. Judgement - in this case by unalloyed strident verdicts upon another human being’s personality and identity - is reserved to God and to God alone.

We are all called to love one another as we would ourselves properly be loved. Regardless of what is in your heart, I do not see the love expressed in your words.

Remember, above all else, that in encountering a homosexual person and in informing him or her of your views, you may be the only image of the Church that person experiences. If what you do or say repels them from the message of Our Lord because of the way you do or say it, then you will have done great harm to those who may need the grace of God the most.
 
You mean like when He said, “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” (Matt. 23:33).
obviously there is a time and place to be stern. and its kind of funny how he was most stern with the pharisees (people like you). Jesus was smart, he knew how to connect with people. if we want our proselytizing to be effective, you must put aside your anger and your pride and truly try to HELP the person. in the example you cited above, Jesus was responding to hecklers basically. those who were trying to trip him up and humilliate him. but in your case its totally different., these homosexuals never hurt anyone, on the contrary, they were persecuted by various religions (including christianity) for years. so its perfectly understandable that they would have misunderstandings about our faith. it is so counterproductive when self righetous people like you attack them and call them “abominations” knowing FULL WELL that it will cause a negative reaction from them.
Or when He said, “Get thee behind me, Satan” to Peter?.
again, time and place for sternness. also note that Jesus was talking to a man who was already comitted to him and had a deep faith in him.
Or when He said to the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin no more”?.
:clapping:
thank you for proving my point. this was a perfect example of his gentleness towards sinners. yet you tried to use this against me… lol you thought no one would notice.
Or when He said, “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do”? (John 8:44).
again reread that bible passage and look at the context.
so please educate yourself on the faith and how to evangelize, because people like you are not helping our cause, you are in fact hurting it.
 
The FIRST thing Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery was “neither do I condemn you”. THEN He said “go and sin no more.”

His forgiveness and His love gave her the power to change her life.

It has seemed to me for quite some time that church folk have been going at this evangelization/conversion idea backwards. Instead of leading people TOWARDS the love of Christ first, so that His love can give them the will and the power to change, they want to start by condemning the actions. People are not going to change their lives without a compelling reason, and it seems to me that the condemnation of the church folk is not enough of a compelling reason for a good many people.

As I’ve said MANY times here, what worked for me was not the wagging finger or the lectures, what worked for me was the example of other Christians who showed me something I wanted. They had a peace in their lives, and a type of joy that they attributed to knowing Jesus. Some of them had compelling stories of their own lives before conversion and how much better their life was after conversion. The people I met told me of a God who loved me and wanted me to be close to Him-not one who viewed me as an “abomination”. After meeting that God, changing my life was something I wanted, not something I was doing because other people told me I was an “abomination”. And I know…everyone says that they aren’t calling the person an abomination,only the actions-but that’s never how it comes across.

I was blessed that I found those people and that they helped me to find my way. What makes me sad is that so many in the gay community will never, ever meet Jesus the way I did, because the only words they hear from people who could help them are negative and angry. This is why language is so important if the real goal is to lead people away from sin and bring them to Jesus.

However, if actually helping people to find Jesus isn’t the goal, then I guess none of that matters.
 
The FIRST thing Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery was “neither do I condemn you”. THEN He said “go and sin no more.”

His forgiveness and His love gave her the power to change her life.

It has seemed to me for quite some time that church folk have been going at this evangelization/conversion idea backwards. Instead of leading people TOWARDS the love of Christ first, so that His love can give them the will and the power to change, they want to start by condemning the actions. People are not going to change their lives without a compelling reason, and it seems to me that the condemnation of the church folk is not enough of a compelling reason for a good many people.

As I’ve said MANY times here, what worked for me was not the wagging finger or the lectures, what worked for me was the example of other Christians who showed me something I wanted. They had a peace in their lives, and a type of joy that they attributed to knowing Jesus. Some of them had compelling stories of their own lives before conversion and how much better their life was after conversion. The people I met told me of a God who loved me and wanted me to be close to Him-not one who viewed me as an “abomination”. After meeting that God, changing my life was something I wanted, not something I was doing because other people told me I was an “abomination”. And I know…everyone says that they aren’t calling the person an abomination,only the actions-but that’s never how it comes across.

I was blessed that I found those people and that they helped me to find my way. What makes me sad is that so many in the gay community will never, ever meet Jesus the way I did, because the only words they hear from people who could help them are negative and angry. This is why language is so important if the real goal is to lead people away from sin and bring them to Jesus.

However, if actually helping people to find Jesus isn’t the goal, then I guess none of that matters.
👍
very well said, in an apparition to st dominic Jesus said that its best to get people to pray before telling them about the law. in the apparition Jesus said:
"'But many priests want to preach thunderously against the worst kinds of sin at the very outset, failing to realize that before a sick person is given bitter medicine he needs to be prepared by being put in the right frame of mind to really benefit by it. "

blessed virgin Mary said:
‘This is why, before doing anything else, priests should try to kindle a love of prayer in people’s hearts and especially a love of my Angelic Psalter. If only they would all start saying it and would really persevere, God, in His mercy, could hardly refuse to give them His grace. So I want you to preach my Rosary.’

i think many people here on CAF should really meditate on this message.
 
I couldn’t agree with the last two posts more. It’s actually moving me close to tears that there are some genuinely lovely caring people out there who really GET it…
 
Grace & Peace!
But remember that while someone may be doing something while being unaware that the thing they are doing is abominable and by being so told immediately realise or stop doing it, to tell someone that they are acting abominably when what it is they are doing is, to them, innate to their own being and sense of self then you will be striking deep and hard at their own self-identity. As such, most people will instinctively defend themselves against such an attack. What is required in such a situation is profoundly charitable language.
Not only that, but there are plenty of people who are same-sex attracted but who do not or will not engage in homosexual sexual activity who are often quite casually–but very regularly–lumped into the “abomination” category (partly because the abomination rhetoric is decidedly un-nuanced). As a result, these folks can often begin to understand their attractions as abominable since something about what they are or how they desire must be the abomination of which they’re being accused (otherwise, why would they be accused of it?). The result is that they become unable to distinguish between something that is disordered and something that is an abomination. Not being able to make this distinction, these people may get the impression that virtue is impossible for them or that otherwise well-meaning religious folks believe that virtue is impossible for them. The end is either shame and despair on the one hand or a souring towards religion on the other, neither of which are helpful, edifying, necessary or salutary.

When I first understood that I was attracted to other guys, I did not correlate that attraction to any particular desire for anything that I or anyone else would have understood to be an un-natural sex act. By their very definition, un-natural acts are not intuitive to anyone–it does not naturally occur to anyone that they should try them out. My attraction was of course physical and contained within it a desire for physical intimacy, but what I imagined that intimacy to be certainly did not look like sodomy. It had more to do with an intimacy of mutual presence–of seeing and being seen completely. I can begin to articulate these things now, but then it would have been impossible to make even this beginning.

I mention all of this because the rhetoric of abomination to which I was subsequently exposed produced some rather unsavory fruits: 1) I came to understand myself as wicked in such a way that it was impossible for me to actually be virtuous–virtue was only ever something I could play at, never something I could actually attain, but it was nonetheless still incumbent upon me to try to attain it; 2) I came to understand the intimacy I desired as evil and subsequently came to fear and avoid all physical contact with others (even now, I’m incredibly conscious of when I touch others or others touch me in any social context); 3) I learned to identify my attraction to male beauty as little more than a desire for a repertoire of sexual acts of which I had hitherto been unaware–hitherto unaware, indeed, that such acts were even capable of being desired, let alone imagined.

I’ve since come to reject these fruits as poisonous, but coming to that rejection it took some time and was not without struggle, mishaps and mistakes. Indeed, I was only able to start a process of healing once I had done the following, by God’s good grace: A) I began to be honest with myself about what and how I actually desired as opposed to simply believing as true what others assumed about my attractions and desires, however well-meaning those others may be or have been; B) I began to explore alternatives to a rhetoric of abomination and shame–i.e., I played “What if…”: What if my attractions are not actually wicked? What if they can actually be productive of something good? If I assume that they can, indeed, be productive of some good, in what ways would I be enabled, empowered and responsible to live in order to foster that good? This new life I’m beginning to imagine…does it look more authentically human than the life of self-hatred and shame I’m currently living?

All of which is to say the following (and I suppose in response, too, to Coptic’s bolded question above): if you want people to change their lives, then you will need to imagine with them the new life you would like them to live, and you will need to imagine it with them in such a way that it is instantly recognizable and desirable as something imminently and authentically good, true and beautiful–i.e., that it is better in real and discernibly present ways than what they have now. This requires, in part, being able to see them as already being the sort of wonderful people you want them to be as opposed to assuming that they are the horrible folks you suspect them to be. I’m not sure if the rhetoric of abomination can do all that.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Homosexual behavior is a truly disgusting form of sexual abuse, but homosexuals can’t see it or experience it. Why? It must be the deception of Satan!
Perhaps this has already been covered, but I don’t understand what you mean by “abuse”. Not everyone derives their morality from what the Church teaches, or what certain interpretations of the Bible teach. I haven’t read all 13 pages of this thread yet…
 
Wow, “unloving”, now, is it? I think I’m through trying to talk sense to you.
It’s not anything. You claimed yourself that the fact you were being “unloving” was the reason posters responded to you in the way they did. My response is a consequent to this statement.
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Petergee:
as you well know, they and you objected to the statements by me, the OP and others because they were supposedly expressed in “unloving” terms.
 
Perhaps this has already been covered, but I don’t understand what you mean by “abuse”. Not everyone derives their morality from what the Church teaches, or what certain interpretations of the Bible teach. I haven’t read all 13 pages of this thread yet…
By ‘abuse’ I’m referring to any sexual behavior that is not in accordance with God. We are still undergoing a sexual revolution in secular society that is very pro-sex and fails to see that not all sex is normal or good.
 
Robert,

I do not doubt your sincerity. What you have found here is that asking “why” generates a whole lot of information that may or may not be useful. Never ask yourself, your brain, why about anything, it will drive you insane and you will get few answers. Your brain, my brain, does not resolve any problem with “why” questions. With that in mind, as you say you wanted to explore a question honestly may I suggest the following:

Use What and How…

Homosexuals have abominable behavior…this is the problem you see and the best I can offer you is to not judge it and to suggest it as a problem that relates to what you believe, for instance…

Homosexual behavior is not healthy and it is against Church teaching…a true and relative statement…that is the what…

then, you say you want them to realize this and someone says speaking the truth is helpful…Ok…

Now this would be something that would not cause a negative reaction from most, you can’t please everyone, however in light of asking How to address a What…you may find a better response…

It is your thread…do as you wish…
I hear what you’re saying, but my experiences on meditating on this topic left me feeling that it was truly an abomination in the eyes of God, therefore the explicit descriptors. Never would I say that homosexuals themselves are evil, or anything like that. The fact that my explicit languish offends some is regrettable, but it’s truly getting at the crux of the matter. We are not posting on a secular website, but a genuine Catholic website that seeks truth from a Catholic perspective. Watering things down so as not to offend anyone in the secular world can be a disservice to Catholicism. The same would be true for masturbation, which I have personally struggled with. Masturbation is an abomination in God’s eyes too.
 
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