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Why can't homosexuals see that their behavior is an abomination?
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gnosisofthomas
Guest
Because it isn’t.
You need to keep in mind that most homosexuals find heterosexual behavior to be pretty disgusting too.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Gnostic one,
Because implies that there is a reason for something…so to say
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Because it isn’t **leaves me to wonder how it is you come to this conclusion…Because? Why Because?
This is a Catholic Forum where we strive to model Christ, want others to seek God and in that regard believe that there is such a thing as morality…since this is a Catholic Forum and you state what Homosexuals find disgusting is relevant to what?
We believe in a God, believe in grace and believe that srtiving to be Holy because our God is Holy requires living morally, we of course do also believe in asking for help and you won’t believe this but no Christian I know of believes that any good they do is done because they are good…because God alone is good and that God provides us the means to act in a way that is pleasing, by grace and we believe that is a good thing…
I want you to have it, I want homosexuals to have it because I believe it is a good thing…because:thumbsup:
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gnosisofthomas
Guest
There’s nothing to indicate that it’s an abomination, it’s merely a human opinion based on the interpretation of a book written by another human in a language the OP probably doesn’t even speak. I understand why Catholics and many other Christians believe it is an abomination, but there is no proof to back up their opinion.
I realise this is a Catholic forum, but the OP asked “why” making the assertion that homosexual acts were disgusting. I answered the question – homosexuals find heterosexual sex just as disgusting as the OP apparently finds homosexual sex. He wanted to know why, and the answer is because the thought of straight sex makes them want to vomit.
And to call it sexual abuse – what is abusive about it? To be abusive, you need an abuser and a victim… When both parties consent to an action, there is no abuse. You may find what they do to be wrong, you may think they are suffering, or that they will suffer in the afterlife – but that’s your own perception, and you can’t speak for other people. I feel that people in “open relationships” are in an abusive situation, but that’s my own opinion and I can’t speak for anyone but myself.
I believe that too, I’m not sure why you would think I don’t. We have different ideas of what is moral and immoral. But then morals are largely subjected, and living up to other people’s moral standards is a set up for failure.
Again though, I understand why you believe what you believe… I just don’t find it convincing enough to agree with it. I still love my Catholic brothers and sisters though!
meltzerboy
New member
That statement is a stereotype about homosexuals. For the most part, they do not find heterosexual behavior to be disgusting.
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Seeker1961
Guest
Personally I find it kind of repulsive, but it’s not something I ever have to watch or participate in. Most of my friends in the community feel the same way. It’s fine for someone else, but we don’t want to have to hear about it or watch it because we find it kind of gross.
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gnosisofthomas
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Some might be more PC, some may be indifferent to it. But I’m gay, and I’m kind of grossed out by it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it if that’s what heterosexuals enjoy, but it makes me uncomfortable to think about.
I mean, realistically, if gay people found straight behavior appealing… they’d probably be straight, haha.
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Seeker1961
Guest
True. The reactions we have to the behavior is part of the orientation, I think. Straight people think gay sex is creepy and gross, gay people thing straight sex is creepy and gross.
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empantarhei
Guest
I cannot help but wonder why you reiterate that sentiment in exactly the same way…
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Nobody seems to be taking this fact into account, so I re-state it!
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empantarhei
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I actually took that into account; it’s quite a debate going on here. Was just wondering if there was anything to the fact that you stated it the same way each time… just curious
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I consider my sins an abomination, and I’m sure God does, too.
However, most people (not limited to me) who are aware of their sins, can name their sins, also have no interest in justifying their sins, let alone glamorizing them – calling them Good.
But many members of the Gay Lobby, some (not a majority, but some) of whom are Catholic, make a point of not only refusing to accept all sin as abomination, but removing that particular sinful behavior from among the many abominable sins, and instead classify the behavior as good and wonderful.
The behavior is not good and wonderful, nor is my sinful behavior good and wonderful. But the pressure to reclassify this particular sin as good and wonderful is enormous and persistent, and does indeed invade CAF.
The behavior that is abominable, as a category, is the reclassifying of sin as virtue, and evil as good. No matter what the objectively evil behavior is. I don’t find other people’s sins worse than mine. I do find the attempt to name sin as wonderful to be an abominable act. For example, I find it abominable that the world should "celebrate’ the fornication of heterosexual cohabiting couples (like many celebrity couples) – assuming that the world should congratulate them for choosing to indulge in that lifestyle as a deliberate choice. I’m tired of having that thrust in the face of the public as well. Such people mock traditional marriage publicly and seek approval for that. And by the way, such people do so while producing children for whom these parents are role models.
It’s abominable.
However, most people (not limited to me) who are aware of their sins, can name their sins, also have no interest in justifying their sins, let alone glamorizing them – calling them Good.
But many members of the Gay Lobby, some (not a majority, but some) of whom are Catholic, make a point of not only refusing to accept all sin as abomination, but removing that particular sinful behavior from among the many abominable sins, and instead classify the behavior as good and wonderful.
The behavior is not good and wonderful, nor is my sinful behavior good and wonderful. But the pressure to reclassify this particular sin as good and wonderful is enormous and persistent, and does indeed invade CAF.
The behavior that is abominable, as a category, is the reclassifying of sin as virtue, and evil as good. No matter what the objectively evil behavior is. I don’t find other people’s sins worse than mine. I do find the attempt to name sin as wonderful to be an abominable act. For example, I find it abominable that the world should "celebrate’ the fornication of heterosexual cohabiting couples (like many celebrity couples) – assuming that the world should congratulate them for choosing to indulge in that lifestyle as a deliberate choice. I’m tired of having that thrust in the face of the public as well. Such people mock traditional marriage publicly and seek approval for that. And by the way, such people do so while producing children for whom these parents are role models.
It’s abominable.
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CopticChristian
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Gnostic one,There’s nothing to indicate that it’s an abomination, it’s merely a human opinion based on the interpretation of a book written by another human in a language the OP probably doesn’t even speak. I understand why Catholics and many other Christians believe it is an abomination, but there is no proof to back up their opinion.
I realise this is a Catholic forum, but the OP asked “why” making the assertion that homosexual acts were disgusting. I answered the question – homosexuals find heterosexual sex just as disgusting as the OP apparently finds homosexual sex. He wanted to know why, and the answer is because the thought of straight sex makes them want to vomit.
And to call it sexual abuse – what is abusive about it? To be abusive, you need an abuser and a victim… When both parties consent to an action, there is no abuse. You may find what they do to be wrong, you may think they are suffering, or that they will suffer in the afterlife – but that’s your own perception, and you can’t speak for other people. ** I feel that people in “open relationships” are in an abusive situation, but that’s my own opinion and I can’t speak for anyone but myself.**
I believe that too, I’m not sure why you would think I don’t. We have different ideas of what is moral and immoral. But then morals are largely subjected, and living up to other people’s moral standards is a set up for failure.
Again though, I understand why you believe what you believe… I just don’t find it convincing enough to agree with it. I still love my Catholic brothers and sisters though!
I find your thought process interesting. I highlighted the most interesting thought. You say that your opinion is an opinion based on feeling, not fact and you say that you cannot speak for anyone else. I agree that you speak for yourself.
Understand that when I speak on behalf of the Deposit of Faith I speak for all Catholics obedient or disobedient. The deposit of Faith is the deposit of Faith.
You speak of a book, written by a human, in a language that cannot be understood. What book do you speak of? What human wrote it? What language is that you are referring to?
You responded to an opinion
with this…
Because it isn’t is a statement of fact and I asked you to clarify this statement of fact and you did not. All you did was offer me an alternate opinion that is as much not fact as the opinion you disagreed with. So again, clarify why the statement you disagree with is as you say, because it isn’t, is it fact or opinion that makes it not so?
What homosexuals find disgusting is opinion. You stated you cannot speak for anyone else and in your gnosis you contradict yourself. You do intend to speak for all homosexuals by saying that Homosexuals find something disgusting. Do you know all homosexual? Have you spoken to all homosexual? Have all homosexuals told you what you say here?
Abusive behavior does not need an abuser and a victim. Cutting is abusive, drug use is abusive, self poisoning with alcohol is abusive unless you proclaim that the abuser and victim are one in the same. Is this gnostic thought or just something you believe to be true?
You suggest that morals are subjective. Murder, Rape, Inciest can be rationalized as acceptable and subjectively acceptable. What standard do you use to have something as universally moral or immoral or do you not have such a notion?
You suggest that you lack conviction of belief and I agree with that. I ask you to clarify for me those issues I raised.
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gnosisofthomas
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Interestingly enough, the Deposit of Faith for all Catholics is also based on opinion, not fact.
I’m referring to a collection of books written by several authors, composed in Hebrew and Greek and compiled together into one tome, the whole of which was later translated in Latin. You call it the Bible.
Actually, I responded to the subject line with: “Because it isn’t.” The second line was in response to the body of text in the original post.
The definition of “abomination” commonly accepted in English is that which is exceptionally loathsome, hateful, wicked, or vile. A homosexual doesn’t find sexual relations with someone of the same sex to be any of those things – therefore an abomination is an entirely subjective term that only has meaning to the person who finds an act abominable. If it is only a subjective opinion and cannot be proven, then it is a fact that homosexual relations are not an abomination, unless you can somehow prove they are.
Now, if you want to talk about the Hebrew words translated as “abomination” – “shiqquwts” and “sheqets” – it gets a little more complicated. Both are derived from the same word, and do not always have the moral implications that “abomination” does. They’re also used to describe something that is unclean, but not necessarily sinful. Linguistically the concept is closer to “taboo”. Again though, taboos are subjective, and vary from culture to culture. One can’t say that there is anything intrinsically wrong with taboo actions. There may be practical reason behind certain taboos – incest can lead to genetic problems if any children are produced from the union; animals can’t give their consent to sexual intercourse with a human. But in the case of homosexuality, no one is being harmed.
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gnosisofthomas
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You obviously don’t understand what Gnosis is.
You’re right, I can’t speak for anyone else, and there may very well be homosexuals out there that don’t find it disgusting. That’s why I said “most homosexuals”. As a gay man who knows a lot of gay people (I live in a big city – gay people tend to flock here), I have never met a gay person who didn’t find heterosexual sex at least a little bit gross. I have met gay people who experimented with heterosexual sex at one time and found they didn’t enjoy it. I also know plenty of gay people who have never had any desire to experiment with it at all. For the most part, it’s taboo, it’s uncomfortable to think about, the idea of doing it feels dirty… like the thought of sleeping with a family member. But I realise sexual orientation isn’t black and white, there is a whole spectrum, and some people are more fluid in who they find appealing. The bottom line is, if it turned them on, they’d be straight… or possibly bisexual.
What does my religion have to do with this? I don’t need a religion to tell me right from wrong, God gave me a conscience for a reason. Who’s to say that the abuser and victim can’t be the same person? Cutting puts one’s life in danger and can lead to infections, drug and alcohol abuse also put your life at risk. Being promiscuous certainly has risks, whereas monogamy really doesn’t. And what about suicide? The killer and the victim are the same person. (Although there are often external reasons that push someone to suicide, such as being made to feel like your very existence is an abomination. So then you have another abuser!)
Can they be? Murder takes away a life that belongs to someone else; rape violates someone else’s body without consent; incest, even if it’s consensual, can produce a child with birth defects. Homosexuality harms no one.
I don’t believe in the absolute universality of morality and immorality. I’ve touched on that previously, and said morals are subjective. However, there are things we as human beings in the 21st century collectively agree are wrong, because they violate the human rights we’ve also collectively agreed on, such as murder and rape. But let’s face it, even that is subjective. Many people have no problem with capital punishment, the use of drones to kill innocent people, “corrective rape”, the routine genital mutilation of babies. People gloss over the fact that other people’s rights are being violated in these cases. But unless you can prove that a married gay couple making love to each other causes just as much harm as rape and murder, you don’t have a leg to stand on.
I didn’t say I lack conviction of belief. I said I wasn’t convinced by your beliefs. I have beliefs of my own.You suggest that you lack conviction of belief and I agree with that. I ask you to clarify for me those issues I raised.
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CopticChristian
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Gnostic one,
You have lots of words. You have lots of thoughts. May I ask you to begin with the common understanding as you have posted that you commenced your journey in the Church of Nazarene, Lutheran, Catholic and finally gnostic/Liberal Catholic. You were baptized in the trinitarian formula.
You state that the deposit of Faith for all Catholics is based on opinion and not facts.
You also state that…
When I asked for clarification you stated this…
So, I believe that you are saying that the deposit of faith for Catholics is based on opinion, and that the notion of Catholic understanding of abomination is based on the Bible, written in a language we don’t understand. Is this correct?
Please tell me what the original language was used for Gnostic writings.
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CopticChristian
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Gnostic one,
You speak for yourself and ad populum arguments bear no weight. Save me and others what it is you think and believe homosexuals think.
You say you have not need for religion to determine right and wrong and acknowledge that your God given conscience knows right from wrong. Explain this conscience. Is it static or dynamic?
Your thinking is disordered. You state that there are no absoulutes and absolutely define Murder, Rape and incest…and if you look at what I wrote…below…
I say nothing of homosexuality and you include that, saying homosexuality harms no one. Your mind was triggered to include this even though I did not mention it. This says volumes for the content of your mind. I know what you may be going through. You are troulbed by this so you routinely mention it as if it is implied.
You have a need to justify your behavior. No where in my posting do I mention anything about homosexuals in relationships. You have a need to bring this to my attention.
Do you want to discuss your difficulty with this problem you have? Or would you prefer not adding homosexual relations and the status of one man’s opinion as it regards this issue?
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John_of_Woking
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Yes to this. This is a great post
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CopticChristian
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Gnostic one,
Your mind is conflicted.
As we think and believe so we act…
You focus on the act and not how thinking and believing determine the act.
Acts are not indepdentent of thinking and believing and acts are not performed without a predetermined mindset.
I believe I am beginning to understand your disordered thinking…
You may want to reevaluate your apporach to discussion in consideration that acts are not independent of thinking and believing.
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Petergee
Guest
:clapping:
Great points which so many people, even here at CAF, forget, especially the last one.
If Western society as a whole, including most otherwise practising Catholics, had not given in and in effect tolerated wholesale fornication over the last 50 years, we would never have seen the current push for toleration and even celebration of even more abominable behaviour.
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