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Arwen037
Guest
Maybe only members of the Catholic church (meaning the universal church) and the whole truth. But don’t try to say that only Roman Catholics have the whole truth because you won’t know that until you get to heaven.
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rschermer2
Guest
Actually I believe that Katholikos didn’t say Roman Catholic church. I believe the words that were used was Catholic church, of which the Roman Church is a part of and therefore by extension also contains the whole truth since it is part of the Universal Church. If you would like to know which church’s are in Union with the Roman Catholic Church and thus making up the Universal or Catholic Church check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations#Catholicism
God Bless,
RS
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
don’t try to say that only Roman Catholics have the whole truth because you won’t know that until you get to heaven./QUOTE]
I respectfully disagree for a number of reason:
In Christ,
- Jesus promised us all truth (John 16:13). He wouldn’t promise us something that was impossible to know.
- Jesus left his church as the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15). The church can’t uphold, protect or defend the truth without first knowing what it is.
- Jesus made truth the thing that sets us free (John 8:32). If the truth is unknowable then freedom is impossible. Jesus wouldn’t make freedom dependent upon something we can never know.
- Jesus said that we WILL know the truth (John 8:32).
Nancy
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motorman
Guest
Hi Arwen,
I have finally come back to this thread and caught up to where we are at right know. I would like to apologize if I seemed to have insulted you or you reliigion I honestly meant no disrespect! I am quilty however of getting off the topic of this thread with my first reponse to your inquiry!
Have a great day and God Bless!
h
I have finally come back to this thread and caught up to where we are at right know. I would like to apologize if I seemed to have insulted you or you reliigion I honestly meant no disrespect! I am quilty however of getting off the topic of this thread with my first reponse to your inquiry!
Have a great day and God Bless!
h
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MariaG
Guest
Arwen,
No one here has even hinted that you are not a true Christian because you are not Catholic. You seem to be overly sensitive in a forum that demands giving others the benefit of the doubt. “Tone” is very hard to read from someones words. As Sherlock pointed out, many of your posts seemed to be stating things that appeared as if you thought they were Catholic Teachings. We gave you the benefit of the doubt. Were you just being sarcastic? If not, you certainly are misrepresenting the views of people here on this forum and the official teaching of the Catholic Church to say things like
The “tone” of this letter is not sarcastic, nor even angry. I pray that you can respond in a like manner.
God Bless,
Maria
No one here has even hinted that you are not a true Christian because you are not Catholic. You seem to be overly sensitive in a forum that demands giving others the benefit of the doubt. “Tone” is very hard to read from someones words. As Sherlock pointed out, many of your posts seemed to be stating things that appeared as if you thought they were Catholic Teachings. We gave you the benefit of the doubt. Were you just being sarcastic? If not, you certainly are misrepresenting the views of people here on this forum and the official teaching of the Catholic Church to say things like
and
The only one here who has discussed what religion someone will be when they get to heaven is you. No one else here has even hinted that Protestant Christians will not be in heaven, no longer our separated brethren, but simply brethren.
The “tone” of this letter is not sarcastic, nor even angry. I pray that you can respond in a like manner.
God Bless,
Maria
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Eucharistaholic
Guest
Arwen037Maybe only members of the Catholic church (meaning the universal church) and the whole truth. But don’t try to say that only Roman Catholics have the whole truth because you won’t know that until you get to heaven.
Arwen,
You are right, partially. No human will know the whole truth until he/she reaches heaven. We should always be longing and striving to learn more of the truth while we are here. I believe that it why St Augustine said “our hearts our restless until they rest in thee”. I think there is an innate desire to know the truth, an innate desire to seek Jesus who is all truth. This desire then feeds a lifelong journey toward the truth, but not reaching it until the end (hopefully).
Earlier on in this thread, several people spoke about being in communion with the Church. We believe as Catholics that the Magesterium of the Church is defending the truth, guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe it is extremely healthy and shows humility to say “I don’t understand” what the truth is. A Catholic can still be in communion with the Church without understanding all of what the Church teaches.
The difference is if you come into the Church saying that you do not agree with what the Church teaches. If you don’t agree with it, then why would you want to take part in what we hold to be the pinnacle of our faith? And this is not just for the Catholic Church. If you don’t agree with something that the Lutheran Church teaches, then I’d say don’t belong to it either. Discerning for yourself what is the correct Church for you is your decision. Either way, hopefully it sets you onto the lifelong journey toward the truth.
Side note, my wife is Lutheran and our discussions on doctrine have only enhanced our marriage. I have respect for the Lutheran and Episcopal Churches for believing in some form of the Real Presence. From what I understand, however, both teach that the Real Presence is gone once the ceremony is over. So, after the service, you can pour the wine down the drain and throw the host away. In the Catholic Church, the wine and host are treated with all care as to not lose a drop or a crumb. Let me know if I am incorrect, as I like to learn.
Peace of the Lord be with you,
E-aholic
Arwen,
You are right, partially. No human will know the whole truth until he/she reaches heaven. We should always be longing and striving to learn more of the truth while we are here. I believe that it why St Augustine said “our hearts our restless until they rest in thee”. I think there is an innate desire to know the truth, an innate desire to seek Jesus who is all truth. This desire then feeds a lifelong journey toward the truth, but not reaching it until the end (hopefully).
Earlier on in this thread, several people spoke about being in communion with the Church. We believe as Catholics that the Magesterium of the Church is defending the truth, guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe it is extremely healthy and shows humility to say “I don’t understand” what the truth is. A Catholic can still be in communion with the Church without understanding all of what the Church teaches.
The difference is if you come into the Church saying that you do not agree with what the Church teaches. If you don’t agree with it, then why would you want to take part in what we hold to be the pinnacle of our faith? And this is not just for the Catholic Church. If you don’t agree with something that the Lutheran Church teaches, then I’d say don’t belong to it either. Discerning for yourself what is the correct Church for you is your decision. Either way, hopefully it sets you onto the lifelong journey toward the truth.
Side note, my wife is Lutheran and our discussions on doctrine have only enhanced our marriage. I have respect for the Lutheran and Episcopal Churches for believing in some form of the Real Presence. From what I understand, however, both teach that the Real Presence is gone once the ceremony is over. So, after the service, you can pour the wine down the drain and throw the host away. In the Catholic Church, the wine and host are treated with all care as to not lose a drop or a crumb. Let me know if I am incorrect, as I like to learn.
Peace of the Lord be with you,
E-aholic
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Arwen037
Guest
I did mention that earlier. We do believe that the presence continues after the mass. Whether or not that is what other Lutheran churches teach, that is what my chruch teaches.
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Sherlock
Guest
Arwen,
You wrote: “When did I say that was the church’s teaching? Oh wait, I didn’t. So why are you accusing me of that?”
Comments such as, "I have serious doubts that when I reach the gates of heaven St. Peter is going to say “Sorry, you can’t come in. I know you tried to live by Christ’s rules, you believe in him fully, and you asked his forgiveness for your sins. But the fact is, we only let Catholics in”, and others (I’ll repeat them if you wish) are what led to my reaction. The example given above seems to indicate that you think that is what Catholics believe or teach—that seems to be an entirely reasonable conclusion to draw. The Catholic Church does not teach that. Personally, I think you are merely acting defensively now that you are being asked to knock off the sarcasm. Sarcasm does not make for an effective argument.
You wrote: “But don’t try to say that only Roman Catholics have the whole truth because you won’t know that until you get to heaven.”
There is a difference between possessing the “whole truth” and possessing the “fullness of the truth”. The Catholic Church does not claim to possess the former (you are right, we won’t know the “whole truth” until we are in heaven); she does claim to possess the latter, that is, the fullness of the truth that has been revealed to us resides within the Catholic Church. This is not to say that the thousands of Protestant denominations do not contain any truth—they do, but it is partial. This is not surprising, as they are splinters off of Catholicism: splinters are less than the tree trunk they splinter off from. Truth was shed, not added to.
But again, there’s no need to be hostile and defensive. If people have said things that were clumsy or poorly put—hey, I’m sorry and will apologize on their behalf as a Catholic, but, ya know, that’s life. A Christian should give others the benefit of the doubt, and, as MariaG has pointed out, it is hard to tell “tone” from words alone. There have been others on this thread who have been very gracious, but they don’t seem to mollify you—your posts continue to be sarcastic.
You wrote: “When did I say that was the church’s teaching? Oh wait, I didn’t. So why are you accusing me of that?”
Comments such as, "I have serious doubts that when I reach the gates of heaven St. Peter is going to say “Sorry, you can’t come in. I know you tried to live by Christ’s rules, you believe in him fully, and you asked his forgiveness for your sins. But the fact is, we only let Catholics in”, and others (I’ll repeat them if you wish) are what led to my reaction. The example given above seems to indicate that you think that is what Catholics believe or teach—that seems to be an entirely reasonable conclusion to draw. The Catholic Church does not teach that. Personally, I think you are merely acting defensively now that you are being asked to knock off the sarcasm. Sarcasm does not make for an effective argument.
You wrote: “But don’t try to say that only Roman Catholics have the whole truth because you won’t know that until you get to heaven.”
There is a difference between possessing the “whole truth” and possessing the “fullness of the truth”. The Catholic Church does not claim to possess the former (you are right, we won’t know the “whole truth” until we are in heaven); she does claim to possess the latter, that is, the fullness of the truth that has been revealed to us resides within the Catholic Church. This is not to say that the thousands of Protestant denominations do not contain any truth—they do, but it is partial. This is not surprising, as they are splinters off of Catholicism: splinters are less than the tree trunk they splinter off from. Truth was shed, not added to.
But again, there’s no need to be hostile and defensive. If people have said things that were clumsy or poorly put—hey, I’m sorry and will apologize on their behalf as a Catholic, but, ya know, that’s life. A Christian should give others the benefit of the doubt, and, as MariaG has pointed out, it is hard to tell “tone” from words alone. There have been others on this thread who have been very gracious, but they don’t seem to mollify you—your posts continue to be sarcastic.
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Contarini
Guest
: From what I understand, however, both teach that the Real Presence is gone once the ceremony is over.:
You are wrong. Neither tradition has a universal teaching on this point, but in my experience Episcopalians would regard an irreverent disposal of the elements with horror, and most Episcopal churches I’ve seen reserve the Blessed Sacrament with a light burning in front of the tabernacle. I believe that among Lutherans opinions are divided on this question.
In Christ,
Edwin
You are wrong. Neither tradition has a universal teaching on this point, but in my experience Episcopalians would regard an irreverent disposal of the elements with horror, and most Episcopal churches I’ve seen reserve the Blessed Sacrament with a light burning in front of the tabernacle. I believe that among Lutherans opinions are divided on this question.
In Christ,
Edwin
K
Katholikos
Guest
Lest readers get confused by terminology,
There is no “Mass” In Lutheranism. Their ritual is called “The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper” or simply “the Lord’s Supper.”
The word “Mass” is derived from the Latin, Ite missa est – the dismissal – meaning roughly “go forth, it (the sacrifice) is finished.” The ceremony is also known to Catholics as the Divine Liturgy. Latin was never the liturgical language of Lutherans.
Some Lutheran churches believe the Real Presence remains, others do not. Take your choice. But does believing make it true, in either case?
Lutherans do not have a valid Eucharist.
Recommended reading: “There We Stood, Here We Stand, 11 Lutherans Rediscover their Catholic Roots” by Timothy Drake. Most of the 11 were Lutheran clergy.
JMJ Jay
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Contarini
Guest
:There is no “Mass” In Lutheranism.:
Sorry, but many Lutherans have traditionally used the term “Mass.” See the Augsburg Confession, or talk to any Swede.
Edwin
Sorry, but many Lutherans have traditionally used the term “Mass.” See the Augsburg Confession, or talk to any Swede.
Edwin
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Katholikos
Guest
Contarini said:
QUOTE
The Small Catechism by Martin Luther:
The Sacrament of the Altar
296. By what other names is the Sacrament of the Altar known?
The Sacrament of the Altar is known also as the Lord’s Supper, the Lord’s Table, Holy Communion, the Breaking of Bread, and the Eucharist.
END QUOTE
JMJ Jay
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Contarini
Guest
OK, if we’re swapping quotes, I see your Small Catechism and raise you an Augsburg Confession, Article 24:
“Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence.”
This is, of course, semantics. But the original claim was a semantic one.
In Christ,
Edwin
“Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence.”
This is, of course, semantics. But the original claim was a semantic one.
In Christ,
Edwin
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Arwen037
Guest
Hey Katholikos, Catholics don’t have a valid Eucharist.
Did me saying that change any of the facts? No. So why bother? To make a point. You can make whatever claims you like, but that doesn’t make it true. We do in fact have a valid Eucharist. I don’t think you are in any position to say otherwise. And if you think you are, please tell me, how many years have you been studying Lutheran theology?
Did me saying that change any of the facts? No. So why bother? To make a point. You can make whatever claims you like, but that doesn’t make it true. We do in fact have a valid Eucharist. I don’t think you are in any position to say otherwise. And if you think you are, please tell me, how many years have you been studying Lutheran theology?
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi Arwen037!
You’re absolutely right! It’s not the say so of an individual that makes Lutheran communion an invalid Eucharist. It’s the fact Lutherans don’t have a valid priesthood. The line back to the apostles was broken when they left the Church. Without it the words that are said over the bread and wine are ineffective.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Katholikos
Guest
Right on, Nancy! Way to go! :clapping:Hi Arwen037!
You’re absolutely right! It’s not the say so of an individual that makes Lutheran communion an invalid Eucharist. It’s the fact Lutherans don’t have a valid priesthood. The line back to the apostles was broken when they left the Church. Without it the words that are said over the bread and wine are ineffective.
In Christ,
Nancy
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PastorVW
Guest
As an Weslean/Evangelical pastor I have never been offended when attending a Catholic Mass. I have always understood that the motive is not to exclude or offend.
This is in spite of the fact that we do not require church membership or total doctrinal agreement to recieve Holy Communion, only genuine faith in Christ. In fact I am not permitted to refuse communion to any believer, including Catholics, unless I know that the person has unconfessed sin in their life.
Several times over the years, I have served communion to active Catholics. Obviously, under our theology I cannot exclude them without denying their salvation - but if I understand Catholic theology, attending my church is fine - but recieving communion is not, correct?
This is in spite of the fact that we do not require church membership or total doctrinal agreement to recieve Holy Communion, only genuine faith in Christ. In fact I am not permitted to refuse communion to any believer, including Catholics, unless I know that the person has unconfessed sin in their life.
Several times over the years, I have served communion to active Catholics. Obviously, under our theology I cannot exclude them without denying their salvation - but if I understand Catholic theology, attending my church is fine - but recieving communion is not, correct?
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MariaG
Guest
You are correct. So in fact, would not the Catholic have unconfessed sin by denying the teachings of the Church they belong to? So should you in fact, deny any known Catholic communion?
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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mercygate
Guest
Before I came into the Catholic Church, I was never offended either. I completely understood and respected that the Church saw herself as carefully guarding the most precious thing it had. I wasn’t being excluded; anybody can become Catholic. (I still can’t believe they actually they actually let me into the Church.)
J
Jade
Guest
Hello Friends!
(bites lip) I can not help but notice the hostility that has seemed to dominate or at least very strongly present itself throughout the last few posts.
Arwen, I sympathize with you. As a former Lutheran (ELCIC- Evengelical Lutheran Church in Canda) I too voiced the same question you have regarding recieveing communtion within the Catholic Church, and like you, have gotten the same answers. I am not here to give you an answer, as that has been done already, but I wanted to support you in your curiosity and having the courage to ask the question and to stick it out through the various responses.
I too have done a lot of study into the Catholic and Lutheran faith’s (primarially their differences). But what I would really like to stress (and I may get corrected by my Catholic brothers and sisters, as I am still confused a little about the catholic church being the one “true” church ( if anyone would like to teach me more about this, please do!) but I would like to say that:
Chirst loves everyone. He loves Protostants, Orthodox and Catholics! We are all ONE in His eyes. Yes, there are differences between all three ‘branches’ of Christianity, but we are all *Christian *still. Jesus loves not only those of His flock ( Now I think that could be read many ways ( His flock meaning only Cathoilcs or Protostants…) But I mean His flock as every Christian, but He loves those that are not of His flock either. While I acknowlege the importance of the differences b/w each of the ‘three branches’ of Christianity, we must not forget that we are still BROTHERS and SISTERS of CHRIST. We are brothers and sisters of Catholics, Protostants and Orthodox. Jesus prayed that “They all might be one” to His Father, and that has yet to happen, but it has to start with us. The disintigration of the walls we have been taught from childhood, that cause us to hurt our fellow family will only be crumbled if we ask God to change our hearts and when that happens, it will be a change from within ourselves. I firmly beleive that Unity will come with a change of heart.
Please forgive the length of this message (blush)
I have one more thing to say, if I could.
I read in one of the postings that it is the Lutheran belief that Christ leaves after communion…or something to that effect ( I’m sorry to the poster of that message, I mean no offence if I misunderstood your intent). It is my understanding ( I speak as a former Lutheran) that Christ is “in, with and around” the species of Bread and Wine, and when one partakes in communion at a Lutheran service, he will find that Christ enters into the person but the elements of Bread and Wine are just that, they remain bread and wine. In the Lutheran church I went to we beleived in consubstantication(sp?), hence my above reasoning. But that is not to say that Christ is not recieved at communion. He is just not recieved according to the Catholic belief. I think that Christ is in every denomination, just in different ways. After all He said that “Where two or more are gathered in My Name, there I am also” And Protostants are Christans too.
I’m sorry again for the lengthy post. Hopefully this helped a bit?
May Christ Jesus give you His Peace.
(bites lip) I can not help but notice the hostility that has seemed to dominate or at least very strongly present itself throughout the last few posts.
Arwen, I sympathize with you. As a former Lutheran (ELCIC- Evengelical Lutheran Church in Canda) I too voiced the same question you have regarding recieveing communtion within the Catholic Church, and like you, have gotten the same answers. I am not here to give you an answer, as that has been done already, but I wanted to support you in your curiosity and having the courage to ask the question and to stick it out through the various responses.
I too have done a lot of study into the Catholic and Lutheran faith’s (primarially their differences). But what I would really like to stress (and I may get corrected by my Catholic brothers and sisters, as I am still confused a little about the catholic church being the one “true” church ( if anyone would like to teach me more about this, please do!) but I would like to say that:
Chirst loves everyone. He loves Protostants, Orthodox and Catholics! We are all ONE in His eyes. Yes, there are differences between all three ‘branches’ of Christianity, but we are all *Christian *still. Jesus loves not only those of His flock ( Now I think that could be read many ways ( His flock meaning only Cathoilcs or Protostants…) But I mean His flock as every Christian, but He loves those that are not of His flock either. While I acknowlege the importance of the differences b/w each of the ‘three branches’ of Christianity, we must not forget that we are still BROTHERS and SISTERS of CHRIST. We are brothers and sisters of Catholics, Protostants and Orthodox. Jesus prayed that “They all might be one” to His Father, and that has yet to happen, but it has to start with us. The disintigration of the walls we have been taught from childhood, that cause us to hurt our fellow family will only be crumbled if we ask God to change our hearts and when that happens, it will be a change from within ourselves. I firmly beleive that Unity will come with a change of heart.
Please forgive the length of this message (blush)
I have one more thing to say, if I could.
I read in one of the postings that it is the Lutheran belief that Christ leaves after communion…or something to that effect ( I’m sorry to the poster of that message, I mean no offence if I misunderstood your intent). It is my understanding ( I speak as a former Lutheran) that Christ is “in, with and around” the species of Bread and Wine, and when one partakes in communion at a Lutheran service, he will find that Christ enters into the person but the elements of Bread and Wine are just that, they remain bread and wine. In the Lutheran church I went to we beleived in consubstantication(sp?), hence my above reasoning. But that is not to say that Christ is not recieved at communion. He is just not recieved according to the Catholic belief. I think that Christ is in every denomination, just in different ways. After all He said that “Where two or more are gathered in My Name, there I am also” And Protostants are Christans too.
I’m sorry again for the lengthy post. Hopefully this helped a bit?
May Christ Jesus give you His Peace.
- Status