Why can't muslims understand?

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JimG:
It seems from the posts from Muslims that I have seen here, that Muslims tend toward both literalness and sola scriptura when it comes to the scritpures, much like many Protestants.

If it is not stated in the Quran or the hadiths, they do not accept it.

Another difference is that Catholic theology accepts the validity of human reason as a gift from God, and consequently accepts the insights of philosophy and metaphysics. I am thinking specifically of Aristotle and Aquinas, or more modern philosophers such as Mortimer Adler, F.J. Sheed, and Peter Kreeft. Muslims seem to be suspicious of anything which sounds like philosophy because they view it as adding something to the Quran, adding human thought to the divine.

It is for that reason that it is difficult to discuss, for example, the attributes of God, as a pre-requisite for discussion of the Trinity. For a Muslim, if an attribute is not stated in the Quran or the hadiths, it is not to be trusted.

I’ve never seen a true Muslim-Christian discussion on such things as the difference between spirit and matter, time and eternity, person and nature.

One final thing. I’ve noticed that some muslims who post on this forum seem to have a highly negative view of human nature—almost as though it is totally depraved and full of filth, in the same manner that some Protestant denominations view human nature as inherently evil and corrupted. If human nature is viewed that way, the hypostatic union—God the Son assuming a human nature—becomes inconceivable. Yet, even with such a view of human nature, muslims do not believe in original sin or the necessity of redemption.

I don’t know if any Muslims have ever read western philosophical thought, but it almost seems one would have to have some familiarity with it in order to have a rational discussion.
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Muslims don’t have a church body for guidance to have a standing outside of scripture, that can be taken for truth.

Not beleiving in original sin could very easily lead to the belif that human nature is filthy.
 
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BryPGuy89:
You could logically explain Shintoism to me, it could sound very practical if a learned man were to teach me, doesn’t mean i’m going to drop Christianity because of the other one sounding more logical after a good teaching in the subject.
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Goodness gracious. Where do you people come from. I am not saying that an explanation of the Trinity should be enough for a muslim to convert. I don’t know where you got that idea. You know what they say about assuming. LOL. What I am saying is that muslims should be able to try hard enough to understand what believe rather than purposely mischaracterize our beliefs which is dishonest.
 
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pro_universal:
I recommend a reading of St. Augustine’s De Trinitate

If it took a man like St. Augustine a book and a lifetime to try and explain the doctrine fully, the odds are that any simple explanation is wrong. Our faith is one that demands reason, and we should have no problem reflecting over and over and explaining as many times as necessary, in as many different ways and to as many challenges as necessary.

This is unfair to other faiths, and it makes our job of sharing the vision of the Trinity more difficult in my opinion. It’s easy for us to say “how sensible!” because it is already our faith. The trinity is by no means an easy to grasp or readily understandable concept for any outsider or even for Christians who try to work on it from a philosophical/logical perspective.
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Sounds to me like you are a fideist. Catholics are not. We believe that if something is not reasonable, it cannot be part of the Catholic faith. The trinity is not entirely comprehensible but that does not mean that it is not reasonable. Thus we can show that the part of the trinity that we do understand is reasonable. That part has been described over and over to muslims yet they still insist on misrepresenting what we believe. That is very dishonest. BTW. Why is it so important for you to become an apologist for the muslim religion and to ignore every dishonesty or injustice commited on their part.
 
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LatinCat:
Goodness gracious. Where do you people come from. I am not saying that an explanation of the Trinity should be enough for a muslim to convert. I don’t know where you got that idea. You know what they say about assuming. LOL. What I am saying is that muslims should be able to try hard enough to understand what believe rather than purposely mischaracterize our beliefs which is dishonest.
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I think I get what you are asking. My point still basically stands. If I make and I have, an effort to understand Shintoism I will naturally not comprehend it the same as one who follows the religion. The very ideaology that there are spirits of nature around us and not a powerful God, is perplexing and I unintentionally misconstrue some of the things I learn about it.
 
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BryPGuy89:
I think I get what you are asking. My point still basically stands. If I make and I have, an effort to understand Shintoism I will naturally not comprehend it the same as one who follows the religion. The very ideaology that there are spirits of nature around us and not a powerful God, is perplexing and I unintentionally misconstrue some of the things I learn about it.
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That is a cop out. When protestantism was explained to me, I digested what it meant and never misrepresent it. I think that an explanation of a dogma is something anyone can give, whether they believe in that dogma or not. The problem with muslims is that they purposely misrepresent. For example, they ask how Christ can pray to himself in the Garden, after we have specifically explained that Christ and the Father are separate people. This looks like intentional misrepresentation to me.
 
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LatinCat:
That is a cop out. When protestantism was explained to me, I digested what it meant and never misrepresent it. I think that an explanation of a dogma is something anyone can give, whether they believe in that dogma or not. The problem with muslims is that they purposely misrepresent. For example, they ask how Christ can pray to himself in the Garden, after we have specifically explained that Christ and the Father are separate people. This looks like intentional misrepresentation to me.
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I still don’t understand protestantism, after being forced to go for years. My overall point is that when something completely new is introduced, even if very clearly stated can still be unclear in the mind. I can be told everything about something and still not totally grasp all the info that is not familiar. A God that is acually three,but still one entity, well if never heard that really/clearly then it would be very confusing to fully grasp. Some probably do purposely mix it up to be difficult, but in majority i would say that it is uncomprehensive problems.
 
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LatinCat:
We believe that if something is not reasonable, it cannot be part of the Catholic faith. The trinity is not entirely comprehensible but that does not mean that it is not reasonable. Thus we can show that the part of the trinity that we do understand is reasonable. That part has been described over and over to muslims yet they still insist on misrepresenting what we believe. That is very dishonest. BTW. Why is it so important for you to become an apologist for the muslim religion and to ignore every dishonesty or injustice commited on their part.
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Okay, well, if you think that explaining the rational part of the trinity is easy, I do recommend reading St. Augustine. He clearly had a tough time with it, and considered it bookworthy to try and explain the doctrine adequately against its detractors.

The fact that something is reasonable does not mean that there is an easy one sentence explanation. That is what I’m saying, and because of that, we can’t expect everyone to just accept the very simple “3 persons, one God” line. If you start thinking about what is an “essence”, what is a “person”, whether a person has by definition its own “essence”, what it is to be a person without an “essence” that is entirely one’s own…it’s not so simple.

As for “ignoring atrocities”, I’m not ignoring anything. I simply refuse to blame a billion people for crimes committed by a few, just like I refuse to blame Christianity for what the Serbs did in Bosnia.
 
Perhaps it’s not that muslims can’t understand, but rather muslims don’t want to understand…
 
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Wildgraywolf:
Perhaps it’s not that muslims can’t understand, but rather muslims don’t want to understand…
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I have quite often (not always, but quite often) found this to be the case!
 
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LatinCat:
Why can’t muslims understand?

I am coming up against a problem in this forum over and over again. Perhaps it is because I am Catholic and I am used to having a rational basis for my faith. Catholics love logic and philosophy and, in fact everything that we believe must be reasonable or the Church rejects it. Now, the problem I am having is concerning muslims. It seems to me that when they engage us in discussion on these forums they abandon logic. We give a reasonable explanation of the Trinity, and rather than trying to discuss what we have said rationally, they simply resort to saying, “that doesn’t make sense”. We give them a reasonable explanation of the hypostatic union, and the sink to same pathetic statement: “that doesn’t make any sense”. I do not believe that muslims are stupid and that all individual muslims are irrational, but is their relgion irrational? Does it require them to abandon logic? Are they fideists?
The second problem that I am having in this forum, is that muslims mischaracterize Catholic beliefs. For example they behave as if Catholics believe that God is one person, and three people. That is silly. We would never subscribe to such nonsense. Rather we believe that with regard to persons, God is three, with regard to being God is one. They often ask silly questions like, “how could Jesus be praying to himself?” Well, that is a mischaracterization because, while we believe that Jesus and the Father are the same God, i.e. they share the same being and divinity, they are distinct persons. Another mischaracterization is that Christians worship Mary. Nonsense. Christians honor Mary, but muslims continue to bring this up. Are they purposely trying to mischaracterize our faith or are they purposely trying not to understand what we believe?
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And why christians can’t understand what Muslims say, and whers is the ligic and the reasonable explanation of the Trinity, since in Bible itself has refuted the so called Tinity.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said “Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.” The words “our God” indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn’t say “Your God”. He said “our God” which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”? Can’t GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I”?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said “Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit”?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said “Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD”?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn’t reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can’t do a single thing of his own initiative?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

To be cont.
 
Cont…

The “God” Title:

How come Christians take the “God’s Son” title literally with Jesus and they don’t take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called the Sons of God?
In John 3:16 Jesus was called God’s only Begotten Son.
In Exodus 4:22 “Thus saith Jehova, Isreal is my son, even my firstborn.” Isreal was called God’s First Son.
In Jeremiah 31:9 “I am a father to Isreal, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” Ephraim is God’s First Son and First Born.In Psalm 2:7 “… Jehova had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” David was called God’s Begotten Son.

Were Jesus’s Miracle’s Unique?
If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).

[Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).

Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha’s dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).
Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)”

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!
Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims’ Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: ‘God is Christ the son of Mary.’ But said Christ: ‘O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 “They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.”
And also in Noble Verse 4:171 “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, …”

The Point that I am trying to prove:

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God’s words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God. Muslims also believe that Jesus was never crucified, nor ever died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was sent to earth to die on the cross .

JUST TRY TO UNDERSTAND

Peace
 
Gurrato, we don’t believe that Jesus was God because he performed miracles - all of the people the Catholic Church calls saints have to have performed at least one scientifically verified miracle. I know the Trinity and the idea of a sinultaneously divine and human being isn’t easy to understand. Neither is quantum physics - doesn’t mean it it’s impossible or less likely to be true. Believe us when we say the doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t automatically preclude the belief in a hierarchy among the persons of that Trinity.

We believe that He was God incarnate for one simple reason: Jesus believed so himself! You’ve been given a very long list of quotes, literally dozens, showing the basis for this belief - or do you believe every single one of THOSE quotes is corrupt or wrong? And yet every single one of YOUR quotes about him are right?

Why, when JESUS is tempted by the Devil in Matthew 4:7, does he say ‘you shall not tempt THE LORD YOUR GOD’? unless he believes HE is GOD?

Look especially at Jesus claiming the power to declare people’s sins forgiven, which he does in Mark 2:5. This power is absolutely God’s alone, and those who saw this knew it, and said so in Mark 2:7. Not only that, Jesus claims to transmits this power to his followers - ‘whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven’ (John 20:23). Who else would dare do these things but a person who THOUGHT HE WAS GOD?

It is also interesting that Jesus is at many points in the New Testament referred to as ‘THE Christ, THE Son of God’ (Peter does this, and so does the High Priest at Jesus’ trial at Matthew 26:63). Clearly his relationship to God is a unique one among human beings - otherwise why is the SINGULAR used? Why not “A” son of God if Jesus and/or Peter and/or the High Priest only ever claimed that he was “A” prophet like the other prophets or “A” son of God like the other Sons of God in the Old Testament? He calls himself greater than Jonah and even greater than Moses. How much greater could a prophet get than Moses? Not very!

Now Jesus’ followers had a very genuine belief that he was God incarnate, which they preached and for which they were martyred. Surely those who knew him personally must have had this belief during his life - they wouldn’t suddenly start believing it after his death, that would be illogical. It’s a bit odd to think that so many of them would hold this belief so deeply if he did absolutely nothing to encourage them in it? Again, JESUS THOUGHT HE WAS GOD!!
 
Some Muslims are trying to understand but because the Concept of God in Islam is straightforward and so clear, Muslims find it impossible to absorb the doctrine of Trinity.
 
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Ahimsa:
If you really want to know why Muslims don’t understand, then you have to look at Catholicism from a Muslim standpoint. To wit:
  1. God is One: One person, One Being, just simply and plainly One. From the Muslim perspective, Christians add things to that simple declaration of Oneness (hypostatic union, Being, Person, Trinity, etc.), all of which are incorrect additions to God’s supreme Unity. If God is One, then He can’t share that Oneness with any other “persons”.
  2. Prayer is worship. From the Muslim perspective, to pray is to worship. To pray to any other spiritual being is to worship, to venerate, that being. And since Catholics do engage in prayers directed towards the Saints, the Muslim sees this as “worship” of the Saints.
The basic problem is that the two groups, Muslims and Catholics, don’t agree on the basic definitions (of God, of worship, etc.), so they often can’t communicate with each other as well as they could.
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Wait a minute. Don’t Moslems (or at least many of them) venerate and pray to various Moslem saints?

But I certainly don’t think that Moslems have a monopoly on refusing to understand or acknowledge what Catholic beliefs are, and deliberately misrepresenting them. In my experience, many protestants and atheists do this very frequently.
 
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manx:
Some Muslims are trying to understand but because the Concept of God in Islam is straightforward and so clear, Muslims find it impossible to absorb the doctrine of Trinity.
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Do Muslims understand time as being composed of past, present and future? Or is there simply only the present. There can be only one time, correct?
 
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Petergee:
Wait a minute. Don’t Moslems (or at least many of them) venerate and pray to various Moslem saints?
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Not the mainstream sunnis but there are deviated ones (e.g. sufi) who call on their saints.
 
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Petergee:
Wait a minute. Don’t Moslems (or at least many of them) venerate and pray to various Moslem saints?

But I certainly don’t think that Moslems have a monopoly on refusing to understand or acknowledge what Catholic beliefs are, and deliberately misrepresenting them. In my experience, many protestants and atheists do this very frequently.
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Excellent point.
 
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