Why can't muslims understand?

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Well, it’s a little like the pot calling the kettle black. You don’t want them to disagree with you but you want to tell them they are wrong? I can see that as a bit of a problem.
 
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manx:
Not the mainstream sunnis but there are deviated ones (e.g. sufi) who call on their saints.
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I undrstand the Shi-ites, who comprise large minorities of Moslems in several countries, the majority in Iraq and almost the whole population of Iran, also do this. I don’t know if they’d appreciate being called “deviated”. I understand that whilst Sunnis disagree with the Shi-ites, they regard them as fellow Moslems, not idolaters. If the Sunnis can understand that Shi-ites venerate saints and do not worship them, what’s stopping them from seeing that Christians do exactly the same thing?
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Liberalsaved:
You don’t want them to disagree with you but you want to tell them they are wrong?
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No. Now it seems you’re the one being obtuse. No one was disputing Moslems’ right to DISAGREE with Christian beliefs and to state that Christians are wrong. What people here are objecting to is those Moslems who don’t even want to know or understand WHAT Christian beliefs are, but deliberately MISREPRESENT those beliefs as something totally different from what they are.

eg No Christian has ever claimed there are three Gods. But some Muslims continue to present this as “what Christians believe” even after it has been patiently explained to them at length why this is not so.

As Mozier mentioned, the problem is that most Moslems take an extreme literalist-fundamentalist view of the words of the Koran, which is even more extreme than Christian fundamentalists’ attitude to the Bible. To most Moslems, everything in the Koran MUST be literally and absolutely true, even if all scientific and historical evidence, and their own reason and observation, tells them it must be false. The way most Moslems see it, to say “One verse of the Koran is not literally true” would mean they would cease to be a Moslem.
 
They understand perfectly.

It’s just that they totally absolutely utterly disagree.
 
Al Masetti and Shadowcry, either you are trying to make a rather weak joke, or you did not read my last post. I repeat, no one on this thread has disputed for a moment Moslems’ right to vehemently disagree with Christians. The problem is that most Moslems deliberately lie about, or claim not to understand, what Christian beliefs ARE.

I totallly utterly absolutely disagree with Communism, but I’m sure I could give an accurate statement of what the principal Communist beliefs are.
 
Are you sure? A Communist might tell you your beliefs about what he believes are false 👍
 
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Shadowcry:
Are you sure? A Communist might tell you your beliefs about what he believes are false 👍
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It is quite common for western universities to provide curriculum covering the comparable study of world religions & religious philosophy. Is there anything like this in the Muslim countries which have schools of higher learning?
 
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Petergee:
No. Now it seems you’re the one being obtuse. No one was disputing Moslems’ right to DISAGREE with Christian beliefs and to state that Christians are wrong. What people here are objecting to is those Moslems who don’t even want to know or understand WHAT Christian beliefs are, but deliberately MISREPRESENT those beliefs as something totally different from what they are.

eg No Christian has ever claimed there are three Gods. But some Muslims continue to present this as “what Christians believe” even after it has been patiently explained to them at length why this is not so.

As Mozier mentioned, the problem is that most Moslems take an extreme literalist-fundamentalist view of the words of the Koran, which is even more extreme than Christian fundamentalists’ attitude to the Bible. To most Moslems, everything in the Koran MUST be literally and absolutely true, even if all scientific and historical evidence, and their own reason and observation, tells them it must be false. The way most Moslems see it, to say “One verse of the Koran is not literally true” would mean they would cease to be a Moslem.
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Hmmmm. I interpreted it wrong. Though it seems to me a lot of religions have that push not to interpret anything and to accept everything at face value. If you are both accepting as fact everything in your respective books, is one side better because their book isn’t as extreme? An interesting question.

But yeah, I was stressed and I jumped. Bad move on my part.
 
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Liberalsaved:
Well, it’s a little like the pot calling the kettle black. You don’t want them to disagree with you but you want to tell them they are wrong? I can see that as a bit of a problem.
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I didn’t say they couldn’t disagree with me. I am saying that they should stop misrepresenting my beliefs. By the way, our disagreements are totally different. They disagree with th True faith, and I disagree with heresy.
 
Al Masetti:
They understand perfectly.

It’s just that they totally absolutely utterly disagree.
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Does that give them licence to misrepresent my faith?
 
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Shadowcry:
Are you sure? A Communist might tell you your beliefs about what he believes are false
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And if he told me in what ways his personal beliefs differ from, say, classic Marxist-Leninist Communist belief, I would quite happily accept that that is what he believes. I wouldn’t tell him “Oh no, I know what you believe far better than you do!” But that’s exactly what these Moslems are saying to Christians.

To put it another way, what if someone went around saying to Moslems, “I don’t care what you say, or that there is no evidence to support my idea, but I know that Moslems worship three gods, because it says so in an old book which I believe was dictated directly by God.” Moslems wouldn’t stand for that nonsense. And neither do we.
 
LatinCat said:
I am coming up against a problem in this forum over and over again. Perhaps it is because I am Catholic and I am used to having a rational basis for my faith. Catholics love logic and philosophy and, in fact everything that we believe must be reasonable or the Church rejects it. Now, the problem I am having is concerning muslims. It seems to me that when they engage us in discussion on these forums they abandon logic.

There is a large majority of Muslims who are illiterate. Do you think they understand logic? I don’t think even the educated Muslims understand logic. Read: “The Sword and the Prophet” by Serge Trefkovic (sp?). He reports that In a Muslim university in Cairo, which is considered to be the thelogical center of the Muslim World, one of the most tempestuous faculty arguments was whether a Muslim in Heaven could have a permanent erection. Also, In 1993, Saudi Arabia’s supreme religious authority declared that the world is flat, and that anyone who disagrees is an infidel to be punished. , :rolleyes: :bigyikes:
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Many have posted and i have read only a few posts. It is all about Trinity. I am a Muslim. Our belief is almost like that of fhe Jews about God. Our belief can never be like the christians. Our God (Allah) is almost like the jealous God of the Jews described in the Torah.

The christians are travelling on a few boats together (more than two boats). They are interested in having three gods in one. Or they have three gods too beside their belief of One God.

Why that One God is there? It is because of the pressure on them from the Jewish point of view and the pressure from the Muslims. Otherwise they would have run off with three gods only.

I want to know why are the christians so interested in teaching Trinity to the Muslims? Why don’t they teach Trinity to the Jews who are their seniors and predecessors. They have the bible OT tied up with their NT too. So why not teach Trinity to the Jews. Had they ever tried? What was the reuslt?

(More in next post about the Trinity and Jesus being a god)
 
You are talking about logic and sense. Please see the following and us eyour logic to explain the things:

Now about the words of John:
John said:
In the beginning was the word and the word was with god. And the word was god.

Is this not a meaningless sentence? In the beginning was the word or a word. It was with God. That word was with god. The word was god… ?? What is all that? That word was with god and that word was god? How come? And was there only one word with god, no more?

And who said that?? Did Jesus say it?? No. So good-bye to it. Such an important pillar on which is standing the big building of Trinity is not from Jesus (who is considered as a prophet and a god). He did not say it. But John had the capacity to say it. Why? Why only John? Why not Mathew and Luke and Mark too? They did not know about it.

Who told John? Did an angel visit John and tell him?? No.
Is John also a God that he could order such a thing? No.
Is John a prophet of God? No. He is only a follower of Jesus at the most.

The story is very long. Jesus never claimed that he was also a god and that he should be worshipped. Jesus was not worshipped even for one day. Rather he was worshipping the One true God. He was worshipping his god. So,if Jesu was also a god, then it means that a god had a god, another god.

It is sure that Jesus worshipped and prayed to his god. If Jesus was god then it means that god had a god, perhaps a bigger God.

Which ever way the christians go, they can never explain Trinity. They had believed previously that there are three in one and one in three. The Quran mentions it too that god is the third of the three. Most of the christians on the net have admitted that Trinity is inexplanable. Those who tried to explain Trinity said that it is very difficult to understand Trinity.

I say, why make the religion so difficult for the common people? Why not leave that subject and come to the same belief as the Jews and the Muslims!
 
planten said:
Why don’t they teach Trinity to the Jews who are theri seniors and predecessors. They have the bible OT tied up with their NT too. So why not teach Trinity to the Jews. Had they ever tried? What was the reuslt?

(More in next post about the Trinity and Jesus being a god)
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They try, planten, they try.

Of course, we have an advantage over Muslims - we don’t accept the ‘New Testament’ in any way, shape or form. 😉
 
Planen said,
They are interested in having three gods in one. Or they have three gods too beside their belief of One God.

This is just what the original poster was talking about.

If you paid attention to what we Trinitarians say, you would understand that we believe in one God in three Persons. We don’t have three gods in one and we don’t have three gods besides one God. We have only one God.

It would be more honest to say you don’t understand how Trinitarians can say that one God has three persons. That would be the truth, without misrepresenting what we believe.

Thank you,

Ruthie
 
planten said:
You are talking about logic and sense. Please see the following and us eyour logic to explain the things:

Now about the words of John:
John said:
In the beginning was the word and the word was with god. And the word was god.

Is this not a meaningless sentence? In the beginning was the word or a word. It was with God. That word was with god. The word was god… ?? What is all that? That word was with god and that word was god? How come? And was there only one word with god, no more?

And who said that?? Did Jesus say it?? No. So good-bye to it. Such an important pillar on which is standing the big building of Trinity is not from Jesus (who is considered as a prophet and a god). He did not say it. But John had the capacity to say it. Why? Why only John? Why not Mathew and Luke and Mark too? They did not know about it.

Who told John? Did an angel visit John and tell him?? No.
Is John also a God that he could order such a thing? No.
Is John a prophet of God? No. He is only a follower of Jesus at the most.

The story is very long. Jesus never claimed that he was also a god and that he should be worshipped. Jesus was not worshipped even for one day. Rather he was worshipping the One true God. He was worshipping his god. So,if Jesu was also a god, then it means that a god had a god, another god.

It is sure that Jesus worshipped and prayed to his god. If Jesus was god then it means that god had a god, perhaps a bigger God.

Which ever way the christians go, they can never explain Trinity. They had believed previously that there are three in one and one in three. The Quran mentions it too that god is the third of the three. Most of the christians on the net have admitted that Trinity is inexplanable. Those who tried to explain Trinity said that it is very difficult to understand Trinity.

I say, why make the religion so difficult for the common people? Why not leave that subject and come to the same belief as the Jews and the Muslims!
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Then why can you explain to me that God is eternal and uncreated, and Quran is eternal and uncreated. Two eternal and uncreated beings. There are 2 Gods in Muslim belief. I have asked you many times in many other threads, and no answer so far. Are you afraid that the answer of your 2 eternal and uncreated will fall into John 1:1 as you mentioned?
 
Ruthie said:
Planen said,
They are interested in having three gods in one. Or they have three gods too beside their belief of One God.

This is just what the original poster was talking about.

If you paid attention to what we Trinitarians say, you would understand that we believe in one God in three Persons. We don’t have three gods in one and we don’t have three gods besides one God. We have only one God.

It would be more honest to say you don’t understand how Trinitarians can say that one God has three persons. That would be the truth, without misrepresenting what we believe.

Thank you,

Ruthie
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You believe in One God in three persons. But those three persons are gods or not? They are your gods too. So those three persons (gods) are in One God? How come?
 
Kaninchen said:
They try, planten, they try.

Of course, we have an advantage over Muslims - we don’t accept the ‘New Testament’ in any way, shape or form. 😉
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Well, what about accepting Islam instead, since both are strictly monotheism?
 
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