Why can't the souls in purgatory pray for themselves?

[atassina]

What is the philosophical or theological basis for our teaching that the souls in purgatory are unable to pray for themselves?

 

[silicasandra]

What is the philosophical or theological basis for our teaching that the souls in purgatory are unable to pray for themselves?

Is that a teaching? (This is a genuine question. I have never thought about whether they could or not and have never heard anything about this subject.)

It is certainly good to pray for the souls in purgatory, but it’s also good to pray for those here on earth even though they can pray for themselves too. Just based on your question, I’m inclined to think that just because we’re asked to pray for the souls in purgatory does not mean they cannot pray for themselves. Wouldn’t prayer be an excellent method of purification?

But like I said, I have no idea. This is an interesting topic.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am unable to answer this definitively, but I imagine it is because:

1. Their souls have already been judged, and thus their eternal destiny (heaven) is guaranteed
2. They are already suffering purgation, in a sense doing penance for themselves

 

[1_with_God]

…but they can pray for us. When they are freed from purgatory they know all who prayed for them. Pray daily for the church suffering.

 

[prodigalson2011]

Funny you ask that. Our priest gave a homily on this topic recently, and as I understand it, it is because they are fully devoted to praying for us; the reason being that purgatory both purges our imperfections AND perfects our love. And as Scripture teaches, love is not self seeking and endures all things. So in other words, their love prevents them from praying for themselves, compelling them instead to pray for those whose salvation hangs in the balance, even at the cost of their own prolonged suffering.

Hope that helps.

 

[R_C]

From the book My Catholic Faith by bishop LaRavoire Morrow:

All the souls in purgatory will go to heaven some day; they will stay in purgatory only as long as they have not atoned for all their sins.

The poor souls cannot help themselves, for their time for meriting was ended at their death. They cannot therefore merit anything to satisfy for their sins.

This is why we who can still merit by our good works should give some of them as suffrage for the poor souls, so that they may soon be delivered from their prison. We have the special obligation of helping with our prayers and sacrifices the Souls of our dead relatives, friends, and benefactors.

Although they cannot merit anything for themselves, the poor souls intercede for us with their prayers to God.

Thus if we help them they repay us by their intercession. No one who has a devotion to the holy souls in purgatory has ever asked for their intercession in vain.

I read that St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori wrote somewhere:

They are unable to pray or merit anything for themselves, yet, when they pray for others, they are heard by God.

I read that this is also based on 2 Maccabees 12:39-46.

By the way, tomorrow is the last day to gain a plenary indulgence applicable only to the Souls in Purgatory: Coemeterii visitatio. I pray that many will take advantage of this opportunity, our brothers in the Church Penitent really need our prayer…and we need theirs There is also the possibility to gain plenary indulgence throughout the Year of Faith (11 Oct 2012 to 24 Nov 2013) which can also be offered for the Poor Souls! This is a unique share in the treasures of the Church that we are given, and it’s our duty to humbly partake of them for the sake of souls and for our own good before the Year ends and that special Chest is closed.

 

[silicasandra]

prodigalson2011:

Funny you ask that. Our priest gave a homily on this topic recently, and as I understand it, it is because they are fully devoted to praying for us; the reason being that purgatory both purges our imperfections AND perfects our love. And as Scripture teaches, love is not self seeking and endures all things. So in other words, their love prevents them from praying for themselves, compelling them instead to pray for those whose salvation hangs in the balance, even at the cost of their own prolonged suffering.

Hope that helps.

Wow, thanks for this explanation.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[R_C]

I think it’s also worthy to remind that the souls in Purgatory experience excruciating pains no inferior to those experienced by the souls in Hell. This is taught, among many others, by St. Thomas Aquinas (that that the fire in purgatory is as intense as the fire in hell, and that the least pain there is greater than the greatest on earth).

See, for instance, an excerpt on this topic from a book of Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange,OP. It is a worthy reading in order to understand just how much the Poor Souls of the Church Penitent are in need of our prayers. By our intercession, we can bring their sufferings to an end.

 

[Samuel63]

Our time for earning merit for our salvation and the salvation of others is while living here on earth. When our earthly life ends, we can no longer earn merit. Our fate is fixed for eternity at our particular judgment, just after we die.

We can earn merit and pass this to the holy souls in purgatory. This is a great spiritual work of mercy. God will have mercy on us moreso if we extend ourselves to help the holy souls.

 

[bitznbitez]

Funny you ask that. Our priest gave a homily on this topic recently, and as I understand it, it is because they are fully devoted to praying for us; the reason being that purgatory both purges our imperfections AND perfects our love. And as Scripture teaches, love is not self seeking and endures all things. So in other words, their love prevents them from praying for themselves, compelling them instead to pray for those whose salvation hangs in the balance, even at the cost of their own prolonged suffering.

Hope that helps.

I had recently decided they must not pray for themselves because true love is not self seeking and it only seeks the good of others. Thus they seek our good, perhaps the good of others suffering with them, but never their own. And when they are fully perfected in this regard they are done.

I wondered if I was being silly.

 

[moon1234]

I have also heard that the pain of purgatory is knowing you will get to go to heaven and what awaits you, but not being able to experience it. The longing for heaven is a significant part of the pain.

Unless we have been to purgatory, we don’t know what it will be like for us. I am guessing purgatory will be different for each person.

There are so many ways to gain plenary indulgences here on earth. PLEASE use these options to get your loved ones to heaven. How much better will you be when you hopefully get to purgatory to have all of your family, whom you helped to get to heaven, to interceed to God and beg him to let you in?

Maybe a little self serving, but I know if I am lucky enough to go to purgatory I want my family praying for me on earth and my family in heaven to be interceeding for me.

 

[R_C]

I have also heard that the pain of purgatory is knowing you will get to go to heaven and what awaits you, but not being able to experience it. The longing for heaven is a significant part of the pain.

Excellent exposition!

From the above-mentioned book:

Their chief pain is the deprivation of the Beatific Vision, the vision of God in the glory of heaven. This temporary deprivation is a most severe punishment, because the poor souls already have a full knowledge of what they are missing.

Unless we have been to purgatory, we don’t know what it will be like for us. I am guessing purgatory will be different for each person.

In a way, yes. However, through private revelations (ex. the one to St. Faustina Kowalska) the Lord has allowed some of His saints to know Purgatory and describe it, so we sort of know what is happening

There are so many ways to gain plenary indulgences here on earth. PLEASE use these options to get your loved ones to heaven.

However, as far as I know, there aren’t that many ways to gain plenary indulgences for the Poor Souls in Purgatory, so we need to take special care whenever these become available. But yes, for us on earth, there are indeed plenty.

 

[moon1234]

A plenary indulgence can ALWAYS be applied to the souls in purgatory. A plenary indulgence can NEVER be applied to the living, except for the person who is requesting it. Meaning you can not apply the plenary indulgence to anyone living except for yourself.

From the Handbook of Indulgences, Third Edition - 1986

Norms for Indulgences:

4.Both partial and plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead as suffrages

holyjoe.net/indulgences/

 

[R_C]

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought from here that there were few occasions to apply a plenary indulgence for the souls in Purgatory

 

[atassina]

A plenary indulgence can ALWAYS be applied to the souls in purgatory. A plenary indulgence can NEVER be applied to the living, except for the person who is requesting it. Meaning you can not apply the plenary indulgence to anyone living except for yourself.

From the Handbook of Indulgences, Third Edition - 1986

Norms for Indulgences:

holyjoe.net/indulgences/

Moon: thanks for your astute point. I had to think a little while why a plenary indulgence couldn’t be applied to a living person. The reason: if the other living person has an attachment to any sin, the full effect can’t take place.

Now help me with this: what is the reasoning process that allows a plenary indulgence to be applied to the person in purgatory? Aren’t the people in purgatory still attached to at least one sinful disorder?

 

[R_C]

Now help me with this: what is the reasoning process that allows a plenary indulgence to be applied to the person in purgatory? Aren’t the people in purgatory still attached to at least one sinful disorder?

No, poor souls, of course not! They are called “holy souls” for an excellent reason Having been saved from eternal damnation, they renounced all attachment to even the smallest venial sin, and they are undergoing the harshest of all purifications to be admitted to the presence of God However, since they cannot merit the indulgences through their works, they pray for us unceasingly and ask us (in many ways ) to pray for them, which is actually a duty we have.

P.s.: why is there a yummy slice of cake in your signature It reminded me I haven’t had lunch yet I thought I was seeing things

 

[moon1234]

The sin has already been forgiven. It is the atonement for sin that they must endure.

It is similar to breaking a neighbors window when playing baseball. You ask for forgiveness, and receive it, but you still need to pay to replace the window.

Those in purgatory no longer have the ability to pay. They must endure time in purgatory to pay for their sin. We can pay their debt through our offering of sufferages for them. One way is through plenary indulgences.

I know some priests now describe purgatory as a perfecting of love for God. This, I believe, is a new concept that emerged in recent times. The ancient tradition of the Church, as described by some of the fathers of the Church, explain that what we do not pay for in this life, must be paid for in the next before we are able to enter into the beatific vision.

Since we have even old testament references to offering sacrifice for the dead, AND we have had indulgences for almost as long as the Church has existed, then I would think the idea of purgatory as a place where we must pay “for the broken windows that we did not yet pay for while on earth” is a much better description of what purgatory really is.

In a way, if you are in purgatory you KNOW you will be going to heaven. The pain of waiting must be terrible. I guess in that way you could say that your love is being perfected in the payment of your debt. Just as a person sentenced to pay a debt back would sincerely appreciate the payment of that debt by a kind third party. It would in no way lessen the sorry for the debt, but rather hasten the repayment of it.

At least that is how I am able to understand it. I would like to get all of my family who may possibly be in purgatory to heaven while I am here on earth. I hope that my children and family will do the same for me if I am lucky enough to merit heaven.

As an aside, this is also why I have a BIG problem with the way many modern funeral services are turned into a canonization of the deceased. I want a requiem Mass where everyone present is reminded to pray for my soul and to guard their own lives. Dies Irae takes on a whole new meaning when you understand what purgatory really is.

 

[Zackeera]

The sin has already been forgiven. It is the atonement for sin that they must endure.

Here’s the good news in Romans 5:8-11 :

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

We can have peace in Jesus Christ! His blood is sufficient to clean us of all our sin - if we will only believe in Him and trust in Him alone for that.

 

[moon1234]

I am sorry, but that is a protestant viewpoint and does not reflect what the Church teaches.

 

[R_C]

The even better news is that you are not incorrect, just missing parts of the Sacred Scriptures and the Sacred Tradition It’s not that we know better, we just have preserved the tradition as it was meant to be taught

Have you taken into consideration 1 Cor. 3:11-15?

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble — each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Also, consider 2 Mac. 12:45.

Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

It is so fascinating, how our protestant brothers that go by sola scriptura have had no problem in stripping the Sacred Scriptures from this sacred book :sad_yes: Do you know what this book of the Bible teaches?

• Prayer for the dead and sacrificial offerings, both to free the dead from sin.
• Merits of the martyrs.
• Intercession of the saints.
• Resurrection of the dead.

Of course, those pages *had *to be carefully teared out of the Bible, if one had to distort the Sacred Tradition and yet still speak of following the Bible as a perfect guide.

So please, for the love of all that is good, don’t try to teach us First, try and read the whole Bible, and find out a little bit about our 20 centuries of Sacred Tradition (for a lifetime would not suffice to read a fraction of what has been written, in fulfillment of the words of the evangelist: “if they should be written, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.”).

And do pray every so often for the Poor Souls, you have no idea how much they need it. We know, not only because we have learned it from some dusty book, but because they themselves have been allowed rather often to come down and ask for those prayers directly.