Why can't the souls in purgatory pray for themselves?

[DavidFilmer]

From the Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520, Exsurge Domine against the errors of Martin Luther:

1. The souls in purgatory are not sure of their salvation, at least not all; nor is it proved by any arguments or by the Scriptures that they are beyond the state of meriting or of increasing in charity.

Does anyone know what “arguments or Scriptures” Leo is referring to?

 

[Vico]

Does anyone know what “arguments or Scriptures” Leo is referring to?

Some are:

1. Luke 16:19-31 describes a situation of irrevocable particular judgments of the rich man and Lazarus. We see that Abraham replies to the rich man: “Between us and you there is fixed a great chaos.”
2. Luke 23:43. “Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour.”
3. Matt. 25:13; Mark 13:33, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, He says: “Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour.”
4. John 9:4 “I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.”

 

[slh3016]

Umm, no. All sous in purgatory are “saved” (will go to heaven). THAT is official Church doctrine. Their salvation is already assured, and is not contingent on any of us on earth.

We can (and should) assist those in purgatory to mitigate their experience. But nobody is “stuck” in purgatory waiting for us to do something.

Good to know! I hated to question the RCIA director when she made that comment. Thanks!

 

[DavidFilmer]

Good to know! I hated to question the RCIA director when she made that comment. Thanks!

Well, then, I should have cited it properly. I actually wrote a computer program to translate the Vatican’s Catechism HTML to CAF (V-Bulletin) BBCode, so it is easy for me to faithfully and accurately cite the Catechism, including the preservation of original text annotations and footnotes:

CCC 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[sup]606[/sup] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[sup]607[/sup]

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[sup]608[/sup]

CCC 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”[sup]609[/sup] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[sup]610[/sup] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[sup]611[/sup]
__________606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

(FWIW, this is probably the most complex citation that I have posted outside of the CAF Sandbox, where I am developing and testing my program (which is still a work-in-progress). I’m pleased that I did not have to make any modifications. My program is now in high school, and is nearing graduation.)

 

[DavidFilmer]

Some are:

1. Luke 16:19-31 describes a situation of irrevocable particular judgments of the rich man and Lazarus. We see that Abraham replies to the rich man: “Between us and you there is fixed a great chaos.”

Is the rich man in purgatory or hell? I’m OK with the idea that he’s in purgatory, but I don’t think the distinction is clear from the text alone.

1. Luke 23:43. “Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour.”

I thought this referred to the Final Judgement. Does it somehow refer to purgatory (which is concerned with personal judgement)?

1. Matt. 25:13; Mark 13:33, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, He says: “Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour.”

Ibid.

1. John 9:4 “I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.”

OK, that’s good. But it’s slim. It can be interpreted in ways that have nothing to do with purgatory.

 

[steve_b]

Is the rich man in purgatory or hell? I’m OK with the idea that he’s in purgatory, but I don’t think the distinction is clear from the text alone.

The rich man is begging for relief, but none is coming. He wants hope, and none is offered nor coming. The place / state he is in, is torture and he wants out, but there is no crossing over into anything better. Where he is, is permanent. That’s hell

 

[Vico]

Is the rich man in purgatory or hell? I’m OK with the idea that he’s in purgatory, but I don’t think the distinction is clear from the text alone.

I thought this referred to the Final Judgement. Does it somehow refer to purgatory (which is concerned with personal judgement)?

Ibid.

OK, that’s good. But it’s slim. It can be interpreted in ways that have nothing to do with purgatory.

The particular judgement is dogma:

• Benedictus Deus of Benedict XII, (1336 A.D.)
• Union Decree of Eugene IV (1439 A.D.)

For Lazarus and Dives, retribution is immediate upon death.

The penitent thief, is immediate:
“This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)

About Judas, immediately went to his place:
Acts 1:24 And they offered this prayer, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew us which of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take his place in this work of apostleship, from which Judas has fallen away, and gone to the place which belonged to him.

St Paul speaks of our immediate reward, looked forward to:

2 Cor 5: 1 Once this earthly tent-dwelling of ours has come to an end, God, we are sure, has a solid building waiting for us, a dwelling not made with hands, that will last eternally in heaven.[1] 2 And indeed, it is for this that we sigh, longing for the shelter of that home which heaven will give us, 3 if death, when it comes, is to find us sheltered, not defenceless against the winds.

Also, St. Augustine commentary of Lazarus and Dives, from De anima et ejus origine, 11, no. 8.

For with respect to that which he (Victor] most correctly and very soundly holds, namely, that souls are judged when they depart from the body, before they come to that judgment which must be passed on them when reunited to the body and are tormented or glorified in that same flesh which they here inhabited — was that a matter of which you (Peter) were unaware? Who is so obstinate against the Gospel as not to perceive those things in the parable of that poor man carried after death to Abraham’s bosom and of the rich man whose torments are set before us?

 

[slh3016]

Well, then, I should have cited it properly. I actually wrote a computer program to translate the Vatican’s Catechism HTML to CAF (V-Bulletin) BBCode, so it is easy for me to faithfully and accurately cite the Catechism, including the preservation of original text annotations and footnotes:

(FWIW, this is probably the most complex citation that I have posted outside of the CAF Sandbox, where I am developing and testing my program (which is still a work-in-progress). I’m pleased that I did not have to make any modifications. My program is now in high school, and is nearing graduation.)

Wow, that’s impressive!

FWIW and to clarify, the RCIA director was not implying that purgatory wasn’t temporary. She was just saying, from what I understood, that souls are in purgatory until “sprung” by prayers of others or when Jesus returned and that some souls, who have no one to pray for them and since they can’t pray for themselves, will be there until the End and then will enter the Beatific Vision. I wasn’t sure if that was just a theory like limbo was at one point or if that was official teaching.

 

[slh3016]

No

since there is NO “Orthodox Church”, but individual ethnic independent and autonomous Orthodox “Churches”, each Church to their own, then there is NO ONE Church to speak for all Eastern Orthodoxy. No central authority means the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) for example, which dwarfs in size all the other Orthodox Churches combined, can and does believe differently than the others about life after death issues…

For example:

“toll house” theology is described in many different ways. And also denied with as much vigor within Orthodoxy. Who among THEM then, decides who is right and who is wrong? No ONE can do that.

• orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_pomaz.aspx
• stlukeorthodox.com/html/evangelist/2000/deathtoll.htm

Yes, I should’ve qualified my initial post with the disclaimer that I am intrigued by SOME of the various views of purgatory/final Theosis, etc. held by SOME Orthodox

Particulary, I found this passage on Orthodox Wiki that says:

“Some Church Fathers, such as St. Cyprian and St. Augustine of Hippo, seemed to believe in a purification after death. However, the character of this purification is never clarified, and especially (as St. Mark of Ephesus underlined at the Council of Florence) it seems there is no true distinction between heaven, hell and the so-called purgatory: all souls partake differently in the same mystical fire (which, according to St. Isaac of Syria, is God’s Love) but because of their spiritual change they are bound to different reactions: bliss for those who are in communion with him; purification for those in the process of being deified; and remorse for those who hated God during their earthly lives. Because of this confusion and inability of the human language to understand these realities, the Church refrains from theological speculation. Instead, she affirms the unbroken Tradition of prayers for the dead, the certainty of eternal life, the rejection of reincarnation, and the communion of the Saints (those living and those who have fallen asleep in the Lord) in the same Body of Christ which is the Church.”

As an aside, Purgatory (not the name but the process) is described very simply in scripture.

Again, I agree. However, for someone who has never heard or been taught about purgatory the concept is rather hard to grasp and many of the passages that do indeed seem to refer to it are not quite so obvious in meaning when read without a teaching magisterium’s authority on translation. That’s why so many Protestants are appalled by the Catholic Church’s position on it.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Is the rich man in purgatory or hell? I’m OK with the idea that he’s in purgatory, but I don’t think the distinction is clear from the text alone.

I thought this referred to the Final Judgement. Does it somehow refer to purgatory (which is concerned with personal judgement)?

Ibid.

OK, that’s good. But it’s slim. It can be interpreted in ways that have nothing to do with purgatory.

He’s in the top level of hell which is quite pleasant.
It’s only later we got anally tristate about these things. Countries don’t have fixed borders, it’s an illusion .

 

[Vico]

…

Another resource in response to your post is the Catechism:

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. 592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others. 593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. 597

593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.
​

 

[Blue_Horizon]

So, there I am on the Titanic with one of the early Christians from Japan named Miyuki and St. Felicity. Both Miyuki and Felicity are quite gracious and enjoying mugs of Italian roast coffee and I have my usual espresso. All of us are savoring chocolate cake with whipped cream. Try the cake I’ve posted. You supply the coffee.

The ladies are quite gracious and fascinating witness to our holy faith. I ask them, “Why can’t the souls in purgatory pray for themselves?” Miyuki said, “Just ask Fr. Xavier. He knows everything.” Felicity responded, “Well, I usually ask someone who knew one of the Apostles when I have a question.” I can do neither so I decided on the next best option, the CA forums.

Why can’t the souls in purgatory pray for themselves?

Part of the karma of sin is that we lose the ability to understand we are going the wrong way and even if we do at times, it’s too painful to turn around easily.
Thus we are lost if left to our own devices and must slowly learn to trust the hand and advice of others who see our true plight. This is the prayer that purifies, our own prayer for ourselves is too maimed and misguided.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Another resource in response to your post is the Catechism:

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. 592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others. 593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. 597

593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.
​

That’s pretty good. Here’s how my Kaptian Katholic Magik Katekism Kuoting proKram would cite it:

CCC 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.[sup]592[/sup] The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.[sup]593[/sup]

CCC 1022 Each man receives his
eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification[sup]594[/sup] or immediately,[sup]595[/sup] – or immediate and everlasting damnation.[sup]596[/sup]

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.[sup]597[/sup]

** II. HEAVEN **
__________592 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10.
593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.

As you can see, it is still a work-in-progress. I’ve only recently been using it outside the CAF Sandbox, but I always examine (and usually manually correct) the output when posting in regular Forums.

My program still has a hard time distinguishing chapter/paragraph headers. This is evidenced by the fact that your citation correctly included the text, “I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT” at the beginning of your quote, whereas my program actually identifies the NEXT paragraph (which is not included in the citation).

FWIW, you left out footnote #592.

 

[atassina]

A short 3 min video Can the souls in purgatory pray for us?
also covered, why they can’t pray for themselves

steve b,
Thanks for the video. Tim Staples simply expanded on the statement that we can only earn merit in this life. He stated that merit is earned in this life. I’m still looking of the answer to why this life only?

 

[atassina]

I wonder. if the souls in purgatory could alleviate the punishment due to them because of their sins, why would they do anything else besides becoming totally focused on themselves and the pains they are suffering due to their sins.

if that were the case, purgatory would seem to result in the souls therein ignoring everyone and everything other than themselves.

I have trouble reconciling such a state with the idea that love is an outpouring of oneself for the well-being of others. the purification process experienced in purgatory results in complete and perfect union with God who is the total outpouring of self.

the souls in purgatory do not have access to the sacraments. they do not have access to alms giving. they do not have access to works of charity other than praying for souls on earth and the souls with them in purgatory. their souls are already suffering penances for their sins and thus they cannot offer up their sufferings or at least diminish their sufferings by offering them up since the whole point of purgatory is to suffer for their sins and results in that suffering purifying the suffering soul.
I do not know the answer other than to rely on the teachings of the Church, but I offer my musings on the subject free.

eddie, it seems that you are saying they can’t repent or offer sorrow. are you advocating for suffering without a point other than to suffer?

 

[steve_b]

Particulary, I found this passage on Orthodox Wiki that says:

*“Some Church Fathers, such as St. Cyprian and St. Augustine of Hippo, seemed to believe in a purification after death. However, the character of this purification is never clarified, and especially (as St. Mark of Ephesus underlined at the Council of Florence) it seems there is no true distinction between heaven, hell and the so-called purgatory: all souls partake differently in the same mystical fire (which, according to St. Isaac of Syria, is God’s Love) but because of their spiritual change they are bound to different reactions: bliss for those who are in communion with him; purification for those in the process of being deified; and remorse for those who hated God during their earthly lives. Because of this confusion and inability of the human language to understand these realities, the Church refrains from theological speculation. Instead, she affirms the unbroken Tradition of prayers for the dead, the certainty of eternal life, the rejection of reincarnation, and the communion of the Saints (those living and those who have fallen asleep in the Lord) in the same Body of Christ which is the Church.”

This is just me, but here’s why I avoid anything that comes from a “wiki” source even “Orthodox wiki”.

When reading orthodoxwiki.org/Main_Page

The opening statement says *"Welcome to OrthodoxWiki, a free-content encyclopedia and information center for Orthodox Christianity that anyone can edit."

*See that “anyone can edit”?

Then it says

** What OrthodoxWiki is not ( my emphasis inred)**

• It is not a church body.
• It is not an official voice of Orthodoxy—among other things, this means that official documentation from particular Church officials does not constitute binding editorial policy for OrthodoxWiki. In other words, OrthodoxWiki regards itself as a beneficiary of the freedom of the press granted by the country of its server’s residence.
• It is not a substitute for your priest or bishop.
• It is not perfect—OrthodoxWiki is a work in progress. It’s also a communal effort, which means that not every member of the community would agree with every statement made in an article. We try hard to weed out anything that is flatly inaccurate or heretical. We press authors to provide sources and document diverging interpretations in a thorough and non-polemical manner. Nevertheless, it is certain that we don’t catch or correct everything. If you see that something is lacking, please step in and fix it! You may also simply note your disagreement on the article’s discussion page.
• It is not a battleground—you are free to state your opinions, but do not threaten, harass or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, we encourage everybody to approach matters in an intelligent manner and engage in polite discussion.
• It is not Wikipedia. We borrow heavily from Wikipedia’s structure, we use the same software as Wikipedia, we link to Wikipedia, and a number of our articles find their initial source in Wikipedia, but OrthodoxWiki is completely unaffiliated with Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation.

(With inspiration from Meta and Wikipedia.)

read that link **Wikipedia about what wikipedia is not.
**
then read Wikipedia’s * Disclaimers

Bottom line, if a resource claims upfront to not represent the subject they write about authoritatively, and admit drawing from Wikipedia for their sources, who openly says they don’t stand behind what they write or its accuracy, and both say anyone can edit any particular article, then I’m thinking I can’t really trust that as a source or resource. It’s just some un-named someone’s personal opinion.

Therefore, I personally avoid using anything with “wiki” anywhere in the name. But that’s just me.
s:

Again, I agree. However, for someone who has never heard or been taught about purgatory the concept is rather hard to grasp and many of the passages that do indeed seem to refer to it are not quite so obvious in meaning when read without a teaching magisterium’s authority on translation.

I agree.

 

[Vico]

They can.
Why do you think they cannot?

.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, p. 322,

“… the intercession of the saints has an impetratory value only, as the possibility of atonenlent and of merit is limited to the term of earthly life.”

Nihil Obstat: Jeremiah J. O’Sullivan, D.O. Censor Deputatus.
Imprimatur: ~ Cornelius, Ep. Corgagiensis et Ap. Adm. Rossensis.
7 October, 1954.

 

[atassina]

On this thread, I keep reading different versions of the same conclusion:

We can only merit in this life and cannot merit the graces from merit in purgatory by praying for ourselves.

Will somebody please explain why those in purgatory cannot pray for themselves and earn merit for themselves in purgatory.

 

[Vico]

On this thread, I keep reading different versions of the same conclusion:

We can only merit in this life and cannot merit the graces from merit in purgatory by praying for ourselves.

Will somebody please explain why those in purgatory cannot pray for themselves and earn merit for themselves in purgatory.

The agent who merits must fulfill two conditions: He must be in the state of pilgrimage (earthly life) and in the state of grace.

Jesus Christ said:
“John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.”

See also Ecclesiastes 11:3; Sirach 14:17.

 

[atassina]

Vico,
Thank you for explaining why we can only merit in this life. I now realize that this is a faith belief that we assent to because scripture tells us so. We cannot reason our way to this answer. Rather, we simply believe based on what the Holy Spirit tells us through scripture.

I am now convinced that I cannot pray for my purification in purgatory. God said it. I believe it.

I have no other gift to give but thanks, and thank, and thanks.