Why can't the souls in purgatory pray for themselves?

[Blue_Horizon]

Vico,
Thank you for explaining why we can only merit in this life. I now realize that this is a faith belief that we assent to because scripture tells us so. We cannot reason our way to this answer. Rather, we simply believe based on what the Holy Spirit tells us through scripture.

I am now convinced that I cannot pray for my purification in purgatory. God said it. I believe it.

I have no other gift to give but thanks, and thank, and thanks.

It’s more likely the HS through the Magisterium I would think.

 

[steve_b]

On this thread, I keep reading different versions of the same conclusion:

We can only merit in this life and cannot merit the graces from merit in purgatory by praying for ourselves.

Will somebody please explain why those in purgatory cannot pray for themselves and earn merit for themselves in purgatory.

In the purification process, God is like Malachi 3:3

Purgatory is a process done to a person’s soul by God. Can silver or gold refine itself? No

 

[Gorgias]

In RCIA a few weeks ago, it was discussed that the souls in Purgatory cannot “get out of Purgatory” without the prayers of others and that they are “stuck” there until prayed out by souls in Heaven or by people still alive on earth. They cannot pray themselves out I was told.

**Is this official Church teaching? **

I’ve heard people say this, too, but I can’t recall ever reading any official Church document that makes this claim. I have heard that the souls in Purgatory cannot ‘pray themselves out’, but that’s a far cry from “they’re ‘stuck’ there until human prayers ‘redeem’ them”. That doesn’t make sense to me, since it would seem to be claiming that purification is an act merited by humans (on earth or in heaven). At best, it would be claiming that purification is an act of God, but only when humans offer sufficient prayers. That just doesn’t make sense.

I might suggest that you ask for clarification at an upcoming RCIA session – perhaps you can ask for a reference to a Church document (e.g., the catechism, a magisterial document) that asserts what you were told in RCIA?

 

[Vico]

I’ve heard people say this, too, but I can’t recall ever reading any official Church document that makes this claim. I have heard that the souls in Purgatory cannot ‘pray themselves out’, but that’s a far cry from “they’re ‘stuck’ there until human prayers ‘redeem’ them”. That doesn’t make sense to me, since it would seem to be claiming that purification is an act merited by humans (on earth or in heaven). At best, it would be claiming that purification is an act of God, but only when humans offer sufficient prayers. That just doesn’t make sense.

I might suggest that you ask for clarification at an upcoming RCIA session – perhaps you can ask for a reference to a Church document (e.g., the catechism, a magisterial document) that asserts what you were told in RCIA?

Augustine (City of God XXI.13, 16) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment. “But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment.”

Hanna, E. (1911). Purgatory. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

 

[Gorgias]

Augustine (City of God XXI.13, 16) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment. “But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment.”

Hanna, E. (1911). Purgatory. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

I’m not seeing how this quote addresses the question of whether souls are ‘stuck in Purgatory’ until someone “prays them out”…

 

[Vico]

I’m not seeing how this quote addresses the question of whether souls are ‘stuck in Purgatory’ until someone “prays them out”…

It does say that they are not stuck forever, which would include if nobody ever prayed for a person there. But we know that that is impossible, since the Church intercedes for all.

 

[Gorgias]

It does say that they are not stuck forever, which would include if nobody ever prayed for a person there. But we know that that is impossible, since the Church intercedes for all.

True. But, it doesn’t speak to the meat of slh3016’s question, which is whether they can be thought of ever as being ‘stuck’ at all, in the absence of prayers, so it doesn’t really help us out.

 

[Vico]

True. But, it doesn’t speak to the meat of slh3016’s question, which is whether they can be thought of ever as being ‘stuck’ at all, in the absence of prayers, so it doesn’t really help us out.

There is never an absence of prayers.

 

[Mintaka]

We are always reliant on the prayers of the whole Church and the grace of God, and we always only gain “merit” by Christ urging us to do works and the Holy Spirit working within us.

Part of Purgatory’s purging function would appear to be making the soul aware of this fact by making him nakedly dependent on others, and on the way he only has eternal life in Christ.

(Even on Earth, a lot of training programs basically start with the drill instructor giving you a reality check of this sort.)

This purging probably also has the effect of increasing the compassion and bonding of people in Purgatory for both the living and for the saints in bliss, making them eager to pray for others and happy when others pray for them. Since Heaven is all about life in Christ and being joined by love to the rest of His Body, you would want to be able to do this.

But there is never an absence of prayers. Every Mass includes prayers for the dead, and the saints and angels are always interceding for the souls in Purgatory, just like they are for us. Nobody is “stuck” in Purgatory.

And it is worth repeating that the various teachings about Purgatory have various levels of authority. If you want to know what is certain and what is speculation, you should be consulting a reference book like Ott’s book on dogma, not a random assortment of us Internet forumites.

This sort of thread is like asking a kid’s science board a technical question about protein formation for industrial use, and then being disappointed that an eight-year-old can’t tell you what brand of plastic tubing to use for it.

 

[slh3016]

I’ve heard people say this, too, but I can’t recall ever reading any official Church document that makes this claim. I have heard that the souls in Purgatory cannot ‘pray themselves out’, but that’s a far cry from “they’re ‘stuck’ there until human prayers ‘redeem’ them”. That doesn’t make sense to me, since it would seem to be claiming that purification is an act merited by humans (on earth or in heaven). At best, it would be claiming that purification is an act of God, but only when humans offer sufficient prayers. That just doesn’t make sense.

I agree. It doesn’t

I might suggest that you ask for clarification at an upcoming RCIA session – perhaps you can ask for a reference to a Church document (e.g., the catechism, a magisterial document) that asserts what you were told in RCIA?

As much as I really like our RCIA director and all the catechists, I often feel like I could be teaching the classes If we hadn’t already researched and read for months and months before entering, we would’ve left after the first class. The scope and sequence has been so out of order. For instance, we discussed contemplative prayer and angels long before we ever learned about the Sacraments We still haven’t heard anything about the Church fathers and WHY we should even believe that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church. Therefore, I’m not all that confident in everything I hear.

 

[slh3016]

There is never an absence of prayers.

But, do the amount of prayers, whether general or specific or even the absence of specific ones, affect the “time” (if that’s even a word that can be used in conjunction with purgatory) one spends in purgatory?

For instance, if a Protestant dies and is heaven-bound but has no one to pray for him/her because the concept of purgatory is alien to his/her loved ones, are they “in purgatory” until a sufficient amount of general prayers are said? Is there process longer or equivalent to the process a Catholic would have who died with the same imperfections on their soul?

I’m still a little confused I don’t even know if my questions make sense

 

[Vico]

But, do the amount of prayers, whether general or specific or even the absence of specific ones, affect the “time” (if that’s even a word that can be used in conjunction with purgatory) one spends in purgatory?

For instance, if a Protestant dies and is heaven-bound but has no one to pray for him/her because the concept of purgatory is alien to his/her loved ones, are they “in purgatory” until a sufficient amount of general prayers are said? Is there process longer or equivalent to the process a Catholic would have who died with the same imperfections on their soul?

I’m still a little confused I don’t even know if my questions make sense

Once cleansed those souls in Purgatory go immediately to heaven. They may be cleanses through intercession, which includes indulgences.

Council of Lyons II 1274

We believe that the true Church is holy, Catholic, apostolic, and one, in which is given one holy baptism and true remission of all sins. We believe also in the true resurrection of this flesh, which now we bear, and in eternal life. We believe also that the one author of the New and the Old Testament, of the Law, and of the Prophets and the Apostles is the omnipotent God and Lord. This is the true Catholic Faith, and this in the above mentioned articles the most holy Roman Church holds and teaches. But because of diverse errors introduced by some through ignorance and by others from evil, it (the Church) says and teaches that those who after baptism slip into sin must not be rebaptized, but by true penance attain forgiveness of their sins. Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for (sins) committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorical or purifying punishments, as Brother John * has explained to us. And to relieve punishments of this kind, the offerings of the living faithful are of advantage to these, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, alms, and other duties of piety, which have customarily been performed by the faithful for the other faithful according to the regulations of the Church. However, the souls of those who after having received holy baptism have incurred no stain of sin whatever, also those souls who, after contracting the stain of sin, either while remaining in their bodies or being divested of them, have been cleansed, as we have said above, are received immediately into heaven. The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments. The same most holy Roman Church firmly believes and firmly declares that nevertheless on the day of judgment “all” men will be brought together with their bodies “before the tribunal of Christ” “to render an account” of their own deeds [Rom. 14:10 ].

Indulgentarium Doctrina, 1967, Pope Paul VI

1. The remission of the temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven insofar as their guilt is concerned has been called specifically “indulgence.”[37]

Norm 2. An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due sin.

Norm 3. Partial as well as plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of suffrage.

newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm