Why can't the US adopt European-Style Social Systems?

  • Thread starter Thread starter RCIAGraduate
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m very fond of how they chose to ignore the graph detailing government spending/growth vs economic growth
 
I didn’t ignore anything. I just know that correlation does not imply causation. And everyone else should to.
 
Last edited:
It still shows that small government doesn’t inhibit growth.
 
Last edited:
Sure, if you’re in to oversimplifying. But seriously. There isn’t nearly enough data to show that. Otherwise I could say the most dramatic rise of growth is due to the increase size of government in the 30s. The line rises the sharpest, by far there. But again, two graphs does not contain the vast amount of data that it would take to adequately describe what was going on there.
 
Nobody in America is denied access to health care. People with no insurance are routinely airlifted and amublanced to health care every single day. Health care insurance is not the only way to get health care in America and absolutely never has been. The WHO rankings are not based on health care quality alone, which the USA completely excels in, especially for rare diseases and conditions. People from other countries routinely come to America for things they simply cannot get for love or money in their own countries. Sometimes they are reimbursed or it’s paid for by their governments, sometimes not.

And I have to just sadly laugh at the idea from another commenter that mental health services are superior in European countries outside the United States. In many countries, being too weird just means you get nothing. America gives a lot to people (citizens and non-citizens) on the health care front and for its trouble is told that it should do so for half-price when the nations it’s compared to do not provide the same breadth and depth of health care services, both mental and physical at half the cost. It’s easy to spend less by simply doing less. That’s the “European way”.
 
And I do have to add how weirdly funny it is to see people on a Catholic site lambasting American health care for its cost, when is heavily Catholic-run and non-profit.
 
Usually the denial I’ve seen is for non-emergency care. Unfortunately this can mean a lot more emergencies, especially with chronic conditions that tend to create emergencies if not regularly treated. That’s actually one financial argument for better support - it’s cheaper to give someone regular medication and appointments, than to continually provide emergency care.
 
I’ve never seen denials at urgent care clinics for non-emergency care. Since we’re relying on anecdotes here. Oh yes, those exist and are usually open 10-12 hours a day and are affordably priced. There’s also non-emergency concierge clinics, also affordably priced despite the myths around such care.

American health care is genuinely pretty good and works well, nothing’s perfect and the main objection to American health care is that it’s expensive because they perform more care and not perfect. Well, in other countries the care is not perfect and somewhat cheaper because they perform less care. Not a big difference in the end.
 
There is a notion in Political philosophy regarding the role of the public sector.

The role of the Public sector is to provide the services that the private sector cannot afford to provide.
 
ThePCWife said:
I’ve never seen denials at urgent care clinics for non-emergency care. Since we’re relying on anecdotes here. Oh yes, those exist and are usually open 10-12 hours a day and are affordably priced. There’s also non-emergency concierge clinics, also affordably priced despite the myths around such care.
Click to expand...
Those are still pretty well within “emergency” category. The problem comes, say, like when I was dealing with my mental health and I needed to get a prescription every month and be seen every 90 days or so to adjust medications. Really I was supposed to be seeing a therapist weekly too, I managed without that part but other people need it. You’re not going to be able to do any of that relying on an urgent care clinic.

Also, I don’t know where you are, but if you’re referring to concierge clinics as “affordably priced” I think your definition of affordable is different than mine.
 
While I haven’t seen a denial at an urgent carere clinic I have been to them and they certainly want to know how they will be paid if they are not paid immediately.

I would also like to point out that health costs are different in different parts of the country. Where I used to live, a physical for one of my children cost $100. Now where I live, it’s over $300. Unfortunately, I am not making over 3 times the amount I was making at the old place 😦
 
Again, if you think other countries will give you that kind of mental health care for nothing up front, you are badly mistaken about how mental health care delivery works in other countries. It’s at least possible in America, I know many people who have been able to get sliding-scale regular mental health care on both fronts (regular meds and regular therapy) without a waiting list even. They did have to pay like ten dollars a session or similar (sliding-scale, after all).

You clearly are just fixed on your specific, relatively rare health care needs not being completely free at the point of delivery, and disregard that you wouldn’t get that for the most part anywhere but the USA.

My own relatively rare, specific health care needs were only provided for in America. In any other country being compared to America, “nothing” is the standard treatment. Yes, I had to gasp pay money to health care providers, but compared to “free” because “nothing” was the “cheaper health care!”, I think it was worth the money.

As for concierge care, yes, I do think 100-200/month for unlimited doctor visits and cheap prescriptions is affordable. For the vast majority of Americans it would be 5% of total income or less.

I don’t know why people lamenting the costs of American health care are so against middle class incomes being earned for working in health care. Why is it so important that those people, from the phlebotomists to the LPNs to the medical billers, be either put out of work or reduced to making part-time wages? Since I never hear about how all the lower-credential but decentish income health care jobs are supposed to be replaced if we reduce our health care down to European levels?
 
pocaracas said:
All while channeling so much of their budget to the military, as if anyone was going to attack them anytime soon… clearly not, so they have to attack others - Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan… just naming a few…
Click to expand...
The Korean war began when North Korea invaded South Korea in an attempt to unify the entire country under a communist dictatorship. If America had not intervened, Kim Jong Un would have control over all of Korea today.

The US was drawn into Vietnam because France was too weak to hold on to its former colony and the West could not afford to lose Asia to the Communist bloc during the Cold War. The US didn’t go looking for war in Vietnam; it became the responsibility of the US to resist the spread of aggressive communism because after 2 world wars other countries were either too weak or too unwilling to protect themselves. We inherited the Vietnam mess from Europe. That was a European problem that they passed off to us.

We attacked Afghanistan because the Taliban government was harboring Al Qaeda—which was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans while attacking our financial and political centers. Any other country would have done the same if they were strong enough.

I will give you that Iraq was a stupid and unnecessary war. You can’t get 'em all right.

It’s easy for Europeans to complain about the US and how aggressive it is all the while benefiting from our protection through NATO. It’s also easy for Europe to afford generous social services when they don’t have to spend large sums on their own military precisely because the US commits to protect them.
 
Last edited:
ltwin said:
It’s easy for Europeans to complain about the US and how aggressive it is all the while benefiting from our protection through NATO. It’s also easy for Europe to afford generous social services when they don’t have to spend large sums on their own military precisely because the US commits to protect them.
Click to expand...
There’s very little doubt; if not for the US there would be no Baltic States. There probably wouldn’t be a Poland.

Heck, I’d wager that sans the US, Russia might have even abutted France.
 
Vonsalza said:
40.png
ltwin:
It’s easy for Europeans to complain about the US and how aggressive it is all the while benefiting from our protection through NATO. It’s also easy for Europe to afford generous social services when they don’t have to spend large sums on their own military precisely because the US commits to protect them.
Click to expand...
There’s very little doubt; if not for the US there would be no Baltic States. There probably wouldn’t be a Poland.

Heck, I’d wager that sans the US, Russia might have even abutted France.
Click to expand...
And, In fairness, is what we’re getting worth what we’re paying?

If I were the Big Cheese, I’d halve the military budget overnight. I’m sure multitudes here disagree.
 
Last edited:
I’d probably want to just see a better return on investment. Time to add some new frontiers to the American dominion 😃
 
ThePCWife said:
As for concierge care, yes, I do think 100-200/month for unlimited doctor visits and cheap prescriptions is affordable. For the vast majority of Americans it would be 5% of total income or less.
Click to expand...
Here’s the issue - we’re worried specifically about the poor. Most of the people I dealt with, myself included, were already relying on some form of welfare or charity because their income wasn’t high enough to cover food and housing and transportation by itself. Adding in an extra $100 a month was completely out of the question. Most places I’ve lived, sliding scale healthcare went down at the lowest to about $50/month for therapy - $10 would be completely unheard of.

You’ll also note that said concierge care really doesn’t cover anyone who needs access to a specialist on any sort of regular basis, which applies to a lot of people with chronic health care. I use mental health care because it’s what I’m most familiar with, although my situation is pretty typical of anyone who had a serious mental health issue (the costs I’m naming are considered industry standard treatment).

The problem a lot of us have is the system works quite well for people who either don’t need a lot of healthcare, or who have the time and resources to build up a large safety net. Most people don’t get that sick that regularly, so they manage ok.
 
Vonsalza said:
And, In fairness, is what we’re getting worth what we’re paying?

If I were the Big Cheese, I’d halve the military budget overnight. I’m sure multitudes here disagree.
Click to expand...
Specifically, what would you cut?
 
I know this wasn’t directed at me, but:

Roll the Air Force back into the army as the army air corps

Streamline procurement process to cut waste

Settle on a uniform for each branch and not allow them to change it 5 times in a decade (the army is bad about this)

There’s plenty of waste in the military. Treating it as a sacred cow that can’t be touched is poor policy. Same with Medicare and social security. There’s better ways to accomplish a task.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top