Why can't the US adopt European-Style Social Systems?

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

And, In fairness, is what we’re getting worth what we’re paying?

If I were the Big Cheese, I’d halve the military budget overnight. I’m sure multitudes here disagree.

Specifically, what would you cut?

Our overseas military presence. Enormously. Depending on how you want to count it, since the word “base” is less used, we have as many as 600 military “installations” world-wide.

Roughly a quarter of what planet earth spends on national defense is just American spending.

And I’d be out of the middle east in exactly 2.4 seconds. That place has been a warring dung-hole since Muhammad started preaching his sword-wielding gospel.
We ain’t gonna fix it.

And ICBMs? We wouldn’t have any. They’re yesterdays tech. The only countries that we’d ever use them on are countries that can shoot them down fairly reliably. Nuclear subs and destroyers are sufficient to affect our nuclear capability and the missiles are so small that they’re near impossible to intercept. The payloads are small enough to avoid many civilian casualties while still eliminating the military target.
And we wouldn’t have to maintain all those silos and aging rockets.

In short, “What wouldn’t you cut?” would be an answer with a shorter list. The navy. Might actually grow that one a tad.

 

[HarryStotle]

The government is responsible for keeping the country going… And keeping the population healthy and educated is a part of that job.

Actually, it is the people who are responsible for keeping the country going. When you turn that responsibility over to the government, the government will keep the country going until it can’t any more and then the culling will start.

Turn the power to determine the life and death of its citizens over to government “health care” services and the government will soon decide whether you are fit to be kept alive, or worth the cost. The level of “fitness” required to remain an asset and not a liability to the government will begin to rise precipitously very soon. It already has in some EU countries and Canada.

Euthanasia is just the camel’s nose under the tent flap, just like 40 years ago, abortion only in the case of the medical necessity of saving the life of the mother was the top of a slippery slope to today’s demonic demands that taxpayers ought to fund abortions for all women up until birth. Within 20 years, it will become a parent’s right to kill their own children even after birth, at least for some children who cannot properly be cared for. Mercy killing in some EU countries is pretty much there, already.

Your assurances today will mean absolutely nothing in a few years.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Actually, the number of overseas American military “installations” is a lot less than 600.

We used to have a lot when we had a fleet of 2,000 Strategic Air Command bombers. They are long gone. SAC is gone as well.

What we do have are rented spaces on some foreign military bases.

Large American overseas military facilities probably number no more than a dozen.

[Name them if you think there are 600.]

If you look at the size of the “installations”, the vast majority are rental storage units for seats that get temporarily removed from transport planes.

The big installations are there to support navy ships.

On September 12, 2001, the United States began to increase its presence in the middle east to combat the people who demolished the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. If we pull out now, then we lose. There will be no stopping “those people”.

 

[Vonsalza]

Actually, the number of overseas American military “installations” is a lot less than 600.

If you define “installation” as a discreet location physically occupied by US military personnel, then no. It’s not a lot less than 600. It’s about 600. Or so google is telling me right now; this morning.

On September 12, 2001, the United States began to increase its presence in the middle east to combat the people who demolished the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. If we pull out now, then we lose. There will be no stopping “those people”.

If you’re talking about the plane hijackers, the only way you can stop those particular folks is by sealing cockpits. We’ve done that - no massive invasions necessary.

If you’re talking about combating those who wish for the downfall of America, those folks exist in every nation on the planet - including America. We have far, far more countries we need to invade if this asinine view truly justifies the invasion of a foreign country.

Regardless, these tactics do not work. A conventional military response does little-to-nothing to stop nearly anonymous terrorism. It does, however, provide would-be terrorists with more targets that are easier to get to since we’ve stupidly deployed to their back yard without knowing exactly who they are.

We need to leave.

 

[philipl]

The vietnam of our time? Between both Iraq and Afghanistan there has been about 7K dead. Vietnam had about 58K die on the US side.

 

[ThePCWife]

The poor have great health care access, though. A handful not getting gold-plated access is a very different issue than no access.

All your anecdotes show is what I’ve already stated, that the USA is very large and there’s tons of regional variation. And concierge care can cover specialists cheaply, but I didn’t want to get into the weeds, but it certainly can be very affordable even then.

If you think outside the USA people who need lots of health care get it for no taxes and no money upfront, you are sadly mistaken, particularly when it comes to mental health care. Also, you can try walking or flying over there and seeing how things go for you as an undocumented immigrant. Spoiler: they will go far worse than is the case in America.

We have a great safety net, but we’re also covering tens of millions more people and employing millions more at family-supporting wages while being endlessly lambasted. Please learn some math so you can understand just how much is already being done in America that other countries simply don’t have the sheer numbers to worry about. It’s quite a lot, and I am happy to grant Catholics their props for providing a lot of it. Catholic health professionals made it possible for me to be a mother at all, I would never have had that chance in “cheaper” countries compared to the United States. I might not have even had access to doctor appointments at all, despite it being “free at the point of service”.

 

[DarkLight]

The poor have great health care access, though. A handful not getting gold-plated access is a very different issue than no access.

What are you defining as “access”? A lot of times, the concern is that access to health care means access to just enough healthcare to keep you alive. All other things aside, it doesn’t even make financial sense, because it’s almost always cheaper to prevent emergencies than to treat them.

Sure, we’d need to scale things differently. But I really don’t think that’s what’s keeping it from happening - it’s the American idea of cheaters. There’s a much more widespread idea in the states that there’s people trying to game the system for free goods, and a suspicion especially of things that can’t be shown. (I think that one affects mental health care a lot.) So people don’t want to support the poor because they have the idea that the poor are, by and large, people who are too lazy to help themselves.

 

[MonteRCMS]

What are you defining as “access”? A lot of times, the concern is that access to health care means access to just enough healthcare to keep you alive. All other things aside, it doesn’t even make financial sense, because it’s almost always cheaper to prevent emergencies than to treat them.

Sure, we’d need to scale things differently. But I really don’t think that’s what’s keeping it from happening - it’s the American idea of cheaters. There’s a much more widespread idea in the states that there’s people trying to game the system for free goods, and a suspicion especially of things that can’t be shown. (I think that one affects mental health care a lot.) So people don’t want to support the poor because they have the idea that the poor are, by and large, people who are too lazy to help themselves.

DarkLight,

You just lost the argument.

You want what YOU want and no compromises.

You, DarkLight, want nothing less than what YOU demand.

 

[DarkLight]

DarkLight,

You just lost the argument.

You want what YOU want and no compromises.

You, DarkLight, want nothing less than what YOU demand.

That I “want” something doesn’t make it an unreasonable demand.

What I want(ed), in this case, was simply to be able to access mental health care prior to it getting to where I was suicidal, and to have care that was focused on getting me stable enough to work and take care of myself rather than simply not actively wanting to die.

Is that supposed to be some sort of luxury?

 

[RCIAGraduate]

Just wanted to remind everyone to remain civil and not to make things to personally. I want debate and discourse but not necessarily an all out rhetorical rumble.

Edit: I want to ask for pardon and forgiveness for anyone scandalized by this, as much as I love political and social discourse, this types of chats lead to a measure of discord.Please, I want discussion, focus on ideas and policies and be careful of tone.

 

[pocaracas]

As an anecdotal example, I can present the story of my dad, in Portugal.
He went to the hospital’s emergency services and paid the mandatory 20€ to be seen.

They did whatever they thought was adequate and quickly determined that he had to be admitted. The doctor couldn’t tell what was wrong with him, but the most likely scenario, at the time, was cancer somewhere in his gut. As a long time smoker, that would be understandable…
However, after running all the required tests, a week later we are told that it is not cancer. The doc still doesn’t know what’s wrong with him. Another week went by and the colonoscopy and endoscopy exams, along with his response to the food he was eating and all the blood tests pointed to Crohn’s disease. Much better than cancer, but not by a lot.
It’s a simple matter of going in, cutting the affected area of the gut, stitching it all back together and presto.
All was going well, when a week after that operation (while he was still interned) something went wrong… it seems the gut didn’t stay stitched together and sepsis followed… Transferred to the ICU, spent a week or two mostly unconscious, while they also spotted a certain cardiac arrhythmia, earning him a pacemaker and a few procedures to clean up all the mess that a unconnected gut did inside, while giving him a bunch of antibiotics… and a tube down his throat for breathing and another for “eating”…
He says he was ready to die, by then… but with some kind words from the doc and the enthusiasm from the nursing staff, as well as, I hope, his sons’ daily visits, he found the strength to keep going and eventually all that sepsis was taken care of and his gut was stitched neatly to his belly and he had to use a stoma (a bag that collected the excrement)… and, after having spent 3 and a half months in the hospital, he could go home… well… my home, as he still required some care, but with a healthy diet and some fisio, eventually, he became independent and then they stitched his gut back together and is now almost like normal… his diet is still limited, as it happens with Crohn’s patients… but aside from that, he’s good.
And it cost him only those initial 20€, plus some medication for his heart and other small things that he’ll have to live with for the rest of his life.

I wonder how that would have been in the US…?

 

[Vonsalza]

I wonder how that would have been in the US…?

For the average American?

Financial ruination.

 

[o_mlly]

I wonder how that would have been in the US…?

In the US, less likely to have been infected.

Apparently and unfortunately, your experience is not unique in Portugal.

OECD Reviews of Health Care Quality: Portugal 2015

Raising Standards

www.oecd.org

More focus on clinical processes, pathways and standards of care is needed, particularly in hospitals, where health care associated infections appear more common than elsewhere (with a reported prevalence of 10.7% of in-patients in 2011/12, compared to 6.0% EU average).

 

[pocaracas]

In the US, less likely to have been infected.

Thanks for the info.
But, in his case, it was his very declined state of general health that probably prevented his gut from remaining stitched back together… and you can imagine what a bunch of intestinal excrement would do to your insides, with all the natural bacteria that live there, if that stuff got out of your intestines, right?

 

[o_mlly]

Thanks for the info.
But, in his case …

I hope your father is well.

 

[Theo520]

There are advantages of a system not driven by profit and economies of scale - just saying !!

I don’t follow you here. The UK system is still driven by budgets and numbers, just like a ‘for profit’ system. The UK system still seeks economies of scale because it can reduce their delivery costs.

I think there will be some differences though.

• the US system is likely to lead to more nonessential tests an treatments while the UK system is more likely to curtail treatments that are expensive against their available budget. They both have benefits and drawbacks for the individual.
• The US system is more likely to lead to innovation. Much of the rest of the world feeds off US medical innovation. The cost though is born by US consumers

 

[ErraticFaith]

Because Americans aren’t that stupid.

If anyone wants to ‘adopt’ the sate of Europe, they need their head examined.