Why can't we change our decision to accept or reject God after we die?

[InspiritCarol]

Carol, the parable could be interpreted to be about Purgatory rather than Hell. The rich man failed to help Lazarus but there is no evidence he was responsible for terrible atrocities. Would you condemn him for all eternity?

I would condemn no-one. Not even those who have done me great harm. I pray for them. They need help. But there is no case for purgatory here whatsoever. vs. 26 pretty definitively refutes this: 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
This can only mean Hell. There is no un-crossable chasm between Heaven and the state of purgatory. Purgatory is a state, not a “place” per-se. I believe the tract on this site explains it as such.
Your use of the term “terrible atrocities” tells me you’re thinking about this all wrong. Please look at Romans. Sin is such a relative thing, combining far too many elements for any of us to be judge, even of ourselves. For the Jew who has committed himself to absolutely following the Covenant of God through Moses, eating pork is a terrible atrocity, not burying the dead, is a terrible atrocity. However, for one who was never educated, who has never known any law except that of “nature” even the taking of another’s life may not necessarily be considered a “terrible atrocity”.

Your last two sentences seem difficult to reconcile.
I hope you do the same for me! We all have our blind spots. It’s a good thing God knows us better than we know ourselves.

I’m only saying I speak from an, albeit very contemplative perspective, it is also a very fallible one. I am sharing interpretation, not revelation. See? (It’s also a mini-prayer.)

 

[seagal]

I don’t believe it is finalized! No one is** ever** beyond the infinite love and mercy of God. If we ceased to have free will when we die we would no longer be persons…

You’re right that we are never beyond God’s love and mercy, we are also never beyond his justice, which is also perfect. How would we exercise our free will in the afterlife (not saying we couldn’t)? I can’t imagine anyone in God’s presence choosing to go against God’s will. Yes, I know Lucifer and his followers did, but if we still had that opportunity then what does eternity mean? Once in hell we can’t then choose to follow God’s will. We have that chance now.

 

[ddarko]

You’re right that we are never beyond God’s love and mercy, we are also never beyond his justice, which is also perfect. How would we exercise our free will in the afterlife (not saying we couldn’t)? I can’t imagine anyone in God’s presence choosing to go against God’s will. Yes, I know Lucifer and his followers did, but if we still had that opportunity then what does eternity mean? Once in hell we can’t then choose to follow God’s will. We have that chance now.

I think its important to note that Satan and his followers made the choice against God without the beatific vision. So did the angels who sided with God. It was only after the decision that those who chose God, receive the beatific vision.
**
Now, why do we not sin when we have the beatific vision? **

One may reply that it is because we see what we always desire with every fiber of our being. Man always sins when he believes he may find happiness through that sinful act. But in heaven, we see what we desire clearly, right in front of us. So there is no need to seek anything else through sin.

Now, why do we need to wait till heaven for the beatific vision?

Because we need to form ourselves according to God’s will on earth. We need to say yes to God’s will and in doing so, we become more inclined to what is good. In heaven God perfects the elect’ still remaining weaknesses and gives the elect the beatific vision.

To give an analogy, a person may have a disordered sexual appetite. For that person, marriage, though beautiful and good, feels like the most worst thing ever made. He/she cannot appreciate the goodness. But for a person, who orders himself according to good, it is beautiful and good.
**
Now, why could someone end-up in hell?**

Because they are so disordered that they find God repulsive. They cannot desire good, because they, by their free actions have made themselves totally opposed to God.

God has merely chosen to give them what they want. To change them to love God would be to infringe the free-will that God himself bestowed on them. So no matter how saddening the situation, he has to let them go.

Now, finally, the OP’s question; what if those in hell could have been good if given more time on earth (which I think is essentially equivalent to asking, can someone change their mind in hell)?

God in his foreknowledge and providence would have given everyone enough time to be saved if they truly will freely chose to be saved by accepting his grace. If someone does end up in hell, then no matter how much time he/she had, they would have still made the same choice.

Note: This is just one way of understanding the elements of Catholic teaching and only my personal understanding. So it may contain errors and is not the only way.

God Bless

 

[tonyrey]

You’re right that we are never beyond God’s love and mercy, we are also never beyond his justice, which is also perfect. How would we exercise our free will in the afterlife (not saying we couldn’t)? I can’t imagine anyone in God’s presence choosing to go against God’s will. Yes, I know Lucifer and his followers did, but if we still had that opportunity then what does eternity mean? Once in hell we can’t then choose to follow God’s will. We have that chance now.

It has often been pointed out that finite offences cannot deserve an infinite punishment. It is unjust that our **eternal **destiny should be based on what we decide now - or at any particular moment..

 

[seagal]

It has often been pointed out that finite offences cannot deserve an infinite punishment. It is unjust that our **eternal **destiny should be based on what we decide now - or at any particular moment..

I think if someone were to choose against God, that would not be a momentary decision but a lifelong choice whether they were aware of it or not.

 

[seagal]

I think its important to note that Satan and his followers made the choice against God without the beatific vision. So did the angels who sided with God. It was only after the decision that those who chose God, receive the beatific vision.

How do we know this?

Now, why could someone end-up in hell?

Because they are so disordered that they find God repulsive. They cannot desire good, because they, by their free actions have made themselves totally opposed to God.

God has merely chosen to give them what they want. To change them to love God would be to infringe the free-will that God himself bestowed on them. So no matter how saddening the situation, he has to let them go.

Now, finally, the OP’s question; what if those in hell could have been good if given more time on earth (which I think is essentially equivalent to asking, can someone change their mind in hell)?

God in his foreknowledge and providence would have given everyone enough time to be saved if they truly will freely chose to be saved by accepting his grace. If someone does end up in hell, then no matter how much time he/she had, they would have still made the same choice.

I agree.

 

[seagal]

Carol, the parable could be interpreted to be about Purgatory rather than Hell. The rich man failed to help Lazarus but there is no evidence he was responsible for terrible atrocities. Would you condemn him for all eternity?

This story is in Luke 16. Verse 22 clearly says that the rich man was in hell. Besides, if he was simply in Purgatory he wouldn’t be so concerned about his brothers suffering the same fate. In Purgatory, we know that we will eventually get to heaven after our (name removed by moderator)erfections have been purged. Also, the rich man going to hell for failing to help Lazarus is another illustration of Jesus’ teaching here (Take note of v. 44-45.)
[bibledrb]Matthew 25:31-46[/bibledrb]

 

[ddarko]

How do we know this?

We know this because no creature who has the beatific vision may sin. To say that a creature would sin while having the beatific vision is contrary to Catholic teaching. Even from a philosophical standpoint, I would think it contradicts the claim that God is all we desire.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

This story is in Luke 16. Verse 22 clearly says that the rich man was in hell. Besides, if he was simply in Purgatory he wouldn’t be so concerned about his brothers suffering the same fate. In Purgatory, we know that we will eventually get to heaven after our (name removed by moderator)erfections have been purged. Also, the rich man going to hell for failing to help Lazarus is another illustration of Jesus’ teaching here (Take note of v. 44-45.)
[bibledrb]Matthew 25:31-46[/bibledrb]

But I think you are missing a greater point here. Someone in hell would not show such genuine concern for those outside. In this case the rich man shows genuine concern for his brothers here and offers a prayer of pleading to send someone to warn them.

I think there is some work by Dr. Scott Hahn dealing with this subject that you might be interested in.

God Bless

 

[seagal]

But I think you are missing a greater point here. Someone in hell would not show such genuine concern for those outside. In this case the rich man shows genuine concern for his brothers here and offers a prayer of pleading to send someone to warn them.

I think there is some work by Dr. Scott Hahn dealing with this subject that you might be interested in.

God Bless

That’s a good point, but don’t you think it was simply a story-telling device? In any case, I share your viewpoint regarding hell, although I’m well aware that I don’t know everything about it .

 

[ddarko]

That’s a good point, but don’t you think it was simply a story-telling device?

It is certainly possible. But if we take it as a mere story-telling device, then it really doesn’t matter whether the rich man was in hell or purgatory anyway. Only the message on the importance of doing good works/works of charity could be taken away from the passage.

But if we are to consider the story is from a true incident, given the information, I think then purgatory seems the more plausible interpretation of the rich man’s whereabouts at that time.

God Bless

 

[Binary]

There would be nothing to think about and thinking would have no purpose.

In eternity there is only the moment, forever, that moment can be suffering in hell forever or the experience of the beatific vision in heaven forever.

Eternal torment or eternal bliss.

You’re speaking with an authority that I’m not convinced you have. The “heaven” you describe sounds utterly pointless and debasing of man. Why would we spend our whole lives growing and changing and becoming persons, only to be reduced to a one dimensional thing?

 

[vz71]

Since no one has experienced and described coming face to face to God there is no evidence that our eternal destiny is based on an instantaneous decision.

There is a witness, and we have the evidence of his testimony.
frtommylane.com/homilies/year_c/lent3.htm

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

You’re speaking with an authority that I’m not convinced you have. The “heaven” you describe sounds utterly pointless and debasing of man. Why would we spend our whole lives growing and changing and becoming persons, only to be reduced to a one dimensional thing?

Once you have reached perfection what more is there to change and grow into?

Heaven is the final destination of our life’s journey, it is a place of eternal rest.

What do you think the point of human existence is?

It is to be with God in Heaven, in heaven we will have fulfilled our purpose. We will be in prefect union with God which is about as opposite to been reduced to a one dimensional thing as I can imagine.

 

[tonyrey]

I think if someone were to choose against God, that would not be a momentary decision but a lifelong choice whether they were aware of it or not.

If they were unaware of their decision it would be unjust for them to be punished for their ignorance.

 

[tonyrey]

Once you have reached perfection what more is there to change and grow into?

All perfection is relative except divine perfection.Life in heaven is dynamic and creative not static and passive.

Heaven is the final destination of our life’s journey, it is a place of eternal rest.

It is a spiritual state of peace not inactivity.

What do you think the point of human existence is?

To develop our capacity for love, creativity and appreciation of beauty.

 

[tonyrey]

There is a witness, and we have the evidence of his testimony.
frtommylane.com/homilies/year_c/lent3.htm

Did he say our eternal destiny is based on an **instantaneous **decision?

 

[tonyrey]

You’re speaking with an authority that I’m not convinced you have. The “heaven” you describe sounds utterly pointless and debasing of man. Why would we spend our whole lives growing and changing and becoming persons, only to be reduced to a one dimensional thing?

Well put!

 

[TrueLight]

Actually there is an example of this in scripture:

The man IS in hell and is not asking to be taken out of the pain. This leads me to personally believe that the people who are in hell are there of their own free will and have freely chosen it for whatever reason.

You know I never thought of this point, but why would not this be purgatory? If the rich man does not even ask to be taken from that place, maybe he knows the punishment is for a time and he deserves it. Maybe he wants to spare his siblings this “trial by fire?”

Thoughts?

Edited to add: Ha ha. Looks like someone already brought up the purgatory interpretation. That’s what I get for not reading the whole thread.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

All perfection is relative except divine perfection.

A things perfection is relative only in relation to how it fulfills what it was created for. In heaven we will be perfect souls perfectly fulfilling our purpose.

Life in heaven is dynamic and creative not static and passive.

There is nothing to create in heaven, heaven knows no want, heaven is already perfect.

To develop our capacity for love, creativity and appreciation of beauty.

Those are merely earthly means to something greater, they are not our purpose.