Why can't we change our decision to accept or reject God after we die?

[Binary]

I have full access to online materials.
I can access multiple dictionaries, multiple encyclopedias, the CCC, multiple encyclicals, etc.
I also am well versed in google-fu.

Does this mean I have all of this knowledge…or that I simply can get it when I want it?

Having access to God’s knowledge is not the same as having the knowledge for oneself.

With out imperfect intellect, we often forget things, and have great difficulty understanding others. We may even find it impossible. With a perfected intellect, at the very least, our forgetfulness should drop away.

Now, we’ve already established that, according to Brendan, heaven is a static state, being outside of time and all. We also know that we have “access to all of God’s knowledge,” since we are in perfect communion with him. What conclusions can we draw from these two things? Since we are unable to think, and because time never progresses, there can be no gradual accumulation of knowledge. Either God imbues us with all of his knowledge upon the “state change” of entering heaven, or it cannot truly be said that we can “access” any knowledge that is omitted at that time.

So if you’re going to defend this position, pick a point to concede and we’ll move on from there.

 

[ac_claire]

Our wills been perfected will be in perfect harmony with the will of God in heaven, our action will be one of perpetual adoration of God. There is nothing to think about or discover because everything is known through God.

Do not make the mistake of loving the journey more than the destination, words cannot begin to describe the joys of heaven and truly our human minds cannot adequately imagine it.

I think this is true. As far as I know, the only infallible, 100% reliable teaching that we have that gives us a glimpse of Heaven is from St. Paul’s epistle…and he basically says that our minds and senses aren’t capable of even conceiving of what Heaven is like.

There’s no way that any of us can know any specific details, since the very definition the Church gives us of Heaven includes the fact that our minds can’t conceive of what it’s actually like.

 

[Robertanthony]

Yes, that is the standard assertion by Christians, but does it really make sense? I mean, I’m guessing that probably no one goes to hell because they actively thought, “I hate God and his goodness! I want to go to hell and suffer forever!” I can’t imagine that any sane person, regardless of their attachment to the pleasures of sin, would choose eternal hell over eternal bliss if they were fully aware of the reality of both.

The fact of the matter is, probably no one on this side of the grave can really appreciate the gravity of their actions and their consequences. It’s only after people have died that we hear testimonials like “I realized how incredibly sinful and guilty I was! Oh, if I only had been a better person, but my damnation is the obvious consequence now!” Yes, once we actually stand before God our disposition becomes obvious, but why not make us more aware of that now? Why does the terrible torment of hell only become obvious once it’s too late to choose otherwise?

Maybe God could drop the “damned” person into hell for a day, and then ask him if that’s what he really wants?

I agree wholeheartedly with everything in your post but the very last element. Being in hell or in heaven (with beatific vision) for a day would nullify freewill IMO. You’d literally have no choice to reject God.

Now, we’ve already established that, according to Brendan, heaven is a static state, being outside of time and all. We also know that we have “access to all of God’s knowledge,” since we are in perfect communion with him. What conclusions can we draw from these two things? Since we are unable to think, and because time never progresses, there can be no gradual accumulation of knowledge. Either God imbues us with all of his knowledge upon the “state change” of entering heaven, or it cannot truly be said that we can “access” any knowledge that is omitted at that time.

So if you’re going to defend this position, pick a point to concede and we’ll move on from there.

Binary, must you be so binary? Why does it have to be either “God infuses us with everything and anything about him and the whole universe at once” or… “According to Brendan” ? Did he write an epistle that I’m unaware of? If the Beatific Vision is the answer to all of man’s most profound aspirations, why would it be so bad to forever do nothing but be in God’s presence and getting gradual knowledge of everything there is to know? Although I suspect that travelling at the speed of thought and other cool stuff will be our lot.

 

[vz71]

Since we are unable to think, and because time never progresses, there can be no gradual accumulation of knowledge.

I do not recall anyone claiming an inability to think in heaven.
Please provide the quote to substantiate this.

 

[Betterave]

Binary, must you be so binary?

 

[Betterave]

Wife: Where were you last night?
Husband: Out of the house.

There’s an example of when an assertion begs a question or, while it is a response to a question, does not answer it. What is the purpose of an intellect (especially a perfected one), if not to think? If you respond by saying that thinking isn’t needed because everything is already known, you haven’t really answered the question.

But I think Brendan really did answer the question; naturally others may not have understood it.

To be fair, we could interpret such a response to mean that the intellect has no purpose in the afterlife. That is such lunacy that I would dismiss it without further comment, but to spell out my objection for you, it is this: without the ability to reason and to choose, you are not a person. Ergo, this statement implies that there are no people in heaven. *Reducto ad absurdum. *

Indeed that’s lunacy, and not the correct interpretation. We are taught that the grain of wheat that falls to the ground is not all like the plant that grows up afterwards. The ability to reason and to choose that fall to the ground and die are not the same as the perfected intellect and will that rise up. It does not follow that we will no longer be persons. God is three persons, person par excellence, presumably, yet his ways are as far above ours as the sky is above the earth. I think you are being far too presumptuous in your declarations about the supposedly necessary conditions for being a person. (To be fair, I’m worried that Brendan’s position might be too presumptuous too - I would prefer to remain vague about it, as Paul did - see 1 Cor 15.)

 

[Binary]

But I think Brendan really did answer the question; naturally others may not have understood it.

Indeed that’s lunacy, and not the correct interpretation. We are taught that the grain of wheat that falls to the ground is not all like the plant that grows up afterwards. The ability to reason and to choose that fall to the ground and die are not the same as the perfected intellect and will that rise up. It does not follow that we will no longer be persons. God is three persons, person par excellence, presumably, yet his ways are as far above ours as the sky is above the earth. I think you are being far too presumptuous in your declarations about the supposedly necessary conditions for being a person. (To be fair, I’m worried that Brendan’s position might be too presumptuous too - I would prefer to remain vague about it, as Paul did - see 1 Cor 15.)

Brendan’s position was mine until very recently. I described the problems it raised that cause me to despair in this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7844271

 

[ac_claire]

But we will have bodies, physical ones. That is Catholic teaching. Look at Jesus after the resurrection. He talked and thought and interacted with people, he even ate a fish, just like we do. To me that indicates that we won’t be static, unchanging statues.

As others have said, it’s not Catholic teaching that we will have our physical bodies in Heaven. Obviously if you think of it as you’ll have the same senses that you have now and will just sit there and stare at God for eternity, Heaven sounds pretty boring. But the Church doesn’t say that, St. Paul doesn’t say that. NOBODY has said that we will be statues. All they say is we can’t conceive with our senses what Heaven will be like.

I don’t want to come in and say this argument is meaningless, because that’s rude. But in the nicest way possible, I think this argument is beside the point because you’re arguing semantics about things that we can’t even comprehend and nobody on earth knows the exact truth about.

 

[ddarko]

As others have said, it’s not Catholic teaching that we will have our physical bodies in Heaven.

I am not sure what you mean here but if you mean to say that we have no body after our resurrection, then it is not correct. The Catholic teaching IS THAT we have a bodily resurrection. Christ had a bodily resurrection. Thomas put his finger in to Christ’s wounds. Christ ate with the disciples. So I think it is fair to say that our resurrection, like Christ, will be a bodily resurrection. Man after all is not merely a spiritual being.

As for the question on whether we have uniqueness, thought in heaven, I think we have to view this in terms of analogies.

One analogy would be that heaven is like a home. A man reaching heaven would be like a small child uniting to his/her parents. The child has found a resting place where he/she is with the person she desires to be with the most and feels safe. It does not mean the Child now just stays there motionless staring at the parents. Now he/she moves around getting to know the other siblings in the family. As long as he/she is at home (heaven), the child feels the closest to his/her parents (God) and feel their presence.

It’s just an analogy but I think it shows how we can have

1. God’s immediate presence in heaven
2. Still have our free-wills and get to know others

I too disagree with the God as a hive-mind and humans just being in stasis after resurrection idea that some here have proposed and present the following as reasons to think why its false.

1. Jesus Christ who was in perfect union with God the father, still was his own person. He did the fathers will but by his free choice. He intercedes for us at the right hand of the father by his own free choice to comply with the will of the father – therefore we certainly have free will in heaven
2. Jesus Christ became man to save humanity while being in the presence of God the father – If being in the presence of God means we don’t do anything else, then Christ would have not done such a thing. So would none of the angels do anything because they enjoy the beatific vision. But even Angels, who are actually spiritual beings, perform actions like offer prayers and at times deliver messages to man.

Therefore, I think the idea that the beatific vision leads to us being in stasis, just enjoying all knowledge and without thought is very much irreconcilable with what we DO KNOW through revelation.

God Bless

 

[Luke_K]

As others have said, it’s not Catholic teaching that we will have our physical bodies in Heaven.

That’s just not true. The resurrection of our bodies is a dogma of our faith. From the Catechism:

997 What is “rising”? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus’ Resurrection.

998 Who will rise? All the dead will rise, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."552

999 How? Christ is raised with his own body: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself”;553 but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, “all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear,” but Christ “will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body,” into a “spiritual body”:554
…
1017 “We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess” (Council of Lyons II: DS 854). We sow a corruptible body in the tomb, but he raises up an incorruptible body, a “spiritual body” (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-44).

There is some confusion here in what a “spiritual body” means, but nevertheless we will be reunited with some kind of glorified body.

 

[ddarko]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything in your post but the very last element. Being in hell or in heaven (with beatific vision) for a day would nullify freewill IMO. You’d literally have no choice to reject God.

I don’t think that is correct according to Catholic teaching. In heaven, one has free will. It is just that those in heaven will always freely chose NOT TO sin because they are in the presence of all that they desire.

God Bless

 

[Robertanthony]

I don’t think that is correct according to Catholic teaching. In heaven, one has free will. It is just that those in heaven will always freely chose NOT TO sin because they are in the presence of all that they desire.

God Bless

I think in heaven free-will is limited to the good, sin is no longer an option, so it’s not absolute free-will. But what I meant to say is that if someone spent a day either in hell or heaven, that would make such a strong and durable impression on them that it could be argued whether rejecting God was still a possibility afterwards. God bless you.

 

[Betterave]

I think in heaven free-will is limited to the good, sin is no longer an option, so it’s not absolute free-will. But what I meant to say is that if someone spent a day either in hell or heaven, that would make such a strong and durable impression on them that it could be argued whether rejecting God was still a possibility afterwards. God bless you.

Catholic teaching is actually that our willing is marred, made less free, by disordered (evil) desires/ tendencies; willing that is unaffected by concupiscence is more free than willing where concupiscence makes sin a real option. Adam’s choice to sin was a corruption of his freedom (and, as a result, of ours), certainly not a demonstration of its absoluteness. True freedom is found in adherence to the truth (“the truth will set you free”), in the perfected harmony of will and intellect.

 

[Betterave]

Brendan’s position was mine until very recently. I described the problems it raised that cause me to despair in this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7844271

Interesting. I would certainly reject your position in that thread, but I doubt that Brendan’s position is the same as that one. I’ll leave it to him to comment if he likes.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

Brendan’s position was mine until very recently. I described the problems it raised that cause me to despair in this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7844271

You are mistaken, what you write in that thread is not my position.

1. We do not lose our uniqueness. God created us unique, we are unique due to His will and our uniqueness is good. The angels in heaven are unique and also the souls of the saints in heaven maintain their uniqueness, so also will we remain our unique identity.
2. The Saints do communicate with each other and even communicate with us here on earth. This communication is pleasing to God who is the one who gave us the ability to communicate and desires us to be in communion with one another as well as Him.

We are not completely erased in heaven rather we become for the first time truly ourselves as God created us to be.

 

[tonyrey]

Our wills been perfected will be in perfect harmony with the will of God in heaven, our action will be one of perpetual adoration of God.** There is nothing to think about or discover **because everything is known through God.

This statement seems inconsistent with:

Do not make the mistake of loving the journey more than the destination, words cannot begin to describe the joys of heaven and truly our human minds cannot adequately imagine it.

 

[Binary]

You are mistaken, what you write in that thread is not my position.

1. We do not lose our uniqueness. God created us unique, we are unique due to His will and our uniqueness is good. The angels in heaven are unique and also the souls of the saints in heaven maintain their uniqueness, so also will we remain our unique identity.
2. The Saints do communicate with each other and even communicate with us here on earth. This communication is pleasing to God who is the one who gave us the ability to communicate and desires us to be in communion with one another as well as Him.

We are not completely erased in heaven rather we become for the first time truly ourselves as God created us to be.

I think that what I have written is a natural extension of what you’ve already claimed. If there is nothing to think about or discover, there is nothing to do and hence, no need to communicate with anyone.

 

[Binary]

Interesting. I would certainly reject your position in that thread, but I doubt that Brendan’s position is the same as that one. I’ll leave it to him to comment if he likes.

My initial or revised position? If the latter, I’d appreciate you telling me why. I don’t want to stray from orthodoxy.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Luke
**
Surely after experiencing hell for even a brief moment,no one would choose to stay there if they still had the choice. So why is our disposition towards God finalized at death? **

The game is over.

 

[ddarko]

I think in heaven free-will is limited to the good, sin is no longer an option, so it’s not absolute free-will. But what I meant to say is that if someone spent a day either in hell or heaven, that would make such a strong and durable impression on them that it could be argued whether rejecting God was still a possibility afterwards. God bless you.

I think it is still absolute free will. It just happens that no person in heaven will freely ever choose sin.

I think in terms of analogy, it is sort of like saying, no mentally sane person (a person in heaven), would commit suicide (a sin). This does not mean that mentally sane person’s are without free will. They just choose not to sin. Similarly in heaven, lack of choosing sin, does not mean they do not have the freedom to sin.

God Bless