Why Can't Women Become Priests?

[lrs]

You mean you haven’t read this!? -

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

It’s a wise Catholic that doesn’t presume to know better.

Dear FCEGM,
I have never read that, but just did.
It just seemed natural and common sense to me. Purity in truth and Wisdom.
…By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honor and gratitude for those women who-faithful to the Gospel-have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins and mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church’s faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel."…

Now where you and i will differ, I said this on a previous post:Biologically, Women have been annointed to give Birth and be nurturing mothers to Life’s Miracle of Creation… This to me, is a Holy and Sacred responsibility. I, for One, do not feel that women “should be priests” Let it be understood, however, that we have all been annointed with our own special gifts. Spiritually, we are all equal. There is no disputing that. Christ dwells in all of us equally and without favor. This is where faith enters the equation. Nurturing and giving Life. It all comes from God, Creation and Love, Love and Creation. When the Priest consecrates the Eucharist, we very much understand that this is eternal love and eternal creation. When we accept that we are made One through the Spirit by Holy Communion, we will be in gratitude of the gifts we have been given and will bow to others whose gifts weigh no different than ours.
It is very much not a matter of: women should not be priests because merely the virtue of their gender, but much more a thought of what are the gifts we have been given and how well do we beg for and obey the Will of God in our lives and use these gifts to serve others.

Is it Heresey to believe that a woman annointed for child birth is equally Holy and Sanctified as a Priest who consecrates the Eucharist.

If it is, I stand convicted. God will deal with me.

****My purpose is that I do not want anyone on this forum adhering to the fact that women are not naturally, by their God given birth right, Holy and Sanctified enough to be Priests. Not fair to call them disobedient feminists- not you in particular- but do you know how quickly ears will close and communication will cease, evangelization will stop, and judgment will abound, when people speak this way!! *********

Peace,
Lisa

 

[Mickey]

My purpose is that I do not want anyone on this forum adhering to the fact that women are not naturally, by their God given birth right, Holy and Sanctified enough to be Priests.

Again, it is not a matter of women not be holy and sanctified! Scripture and Tradition conveys to us the maleness of the priesthood–and we are obedient to this.

Not fair to call them disobedient feminists

If a woman seeks out a rogue bishop, who in turn oradains her–and she then claims to be a Catholic priest (which has happened as of late)–then she is a disobedient radical feminist who does not understand the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

 

[NotWorthy]

Is it Heresey to believe that a woman annointed for child birth is equally Holy and Sanctified as a Priest who consecrates the Eucharist.

If it is, I stand convicted. God will deal with me.

****My purpose is that I do not want anyone on this forum adhering to the fact that women are not naturally, by their God given birth right, Holy and Sanctified enough to be Priests. Not fair to call them disobedient feminists- not you in particular- but do you know how quickly ears will close and communication will cease, evangelization will stop, and judgment will abound, when people speak this way!! *********

Peace,
Lisa

I rather think it is heresy to believe that a priest is more holy and sanctified than a non-preist, male or female, simply because of their priesthood. (If I’m wrong, I’ll take my 40 lashes with a wet noodle).

The gifts of the priesthood are Charisms, or graces that benefit others. They don’t make the priest more holy. What makes a priest holy, as well as anyone else, is what is in their soul, and that is God’s Grace.

 

[lrs]

Mickey, the scope of who considers a women a disobedient radical feminists for even questioning why this Church does not allow women to be priests, far far exceeds the 1-2 rogue bishops ordination 2-3 women priests.

The question should not ilicit these “radical feminists” remarks, important not to be dismissive of those who question.

Blessings.
Lisa

 

[Mickey]

The question should not ilicit these “radical feminists” remarks, important not to be dismissive of those who question.

Oh, but I beg to differ, Lisa. Obviously, a healthy inquiry into our Catholic faith should not label someone as a radical feminist. But those who rebel against the 2000 year old teaching of the priesthood, are indeed, usually radical feminists. That is not an area that is open for disobedience and as much as you would like to sugar coat this, it is not something that will ever change–and if it does, I will convert to Holy Orthodoxy.

You are beating a dead horse. No one denies the holiness and sanctity of women.

 

[Hegesippus]

Mickey, the scope of who considers a women a disobedient radical feminists for even questioning why this Church does not allow women to be priests, far far exceeds the 1-2 rogue bishops ordination 2-3 women priests.

The question should not ilicit these “radical feminists” remarks, important not to be dismissive of those who question.

Blessings.
Lisa

I have a question for you Lisa. Do women that have hands laid on them and the words of the sacrmaent are said over these women ,who claim to be Catholic priestesses, by a valid bishop, is this woman than a Catholic priestess?

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, but I beg to differ, Lisa. Obviously, a healthy inquiry into our Catholic faith should not label someone as a radical feminist.

Then why are people in this very thread labelling Edwin as a “radical feminist,” even though all he is doing is asking about this?

If we should not label inquirers as “feminists” then let us (please?) cease to do so.

 

[lrs]

I think Edwin is a Episcopalian Priest-
Senior Member on this Forum-is Edwin male or female?

However, Hegessipus, women who are “are ordained” by a bishop are not priestess, and are not of any validity in the Catholic Church.
The Bishop who “ordains” this woman is not following the teachings of the Church.

Lisa

 

[Hegesippus]

I rather think it is heresy to believe that a priest is more holy and sanctified than a non-preist, male or female, simply because of their priesthood. (If I’m wrong, I’ll take my 40 lashes with a wet noodle).

The gifts of the priesthood are Charisms, or graces that benefit others. They don’t make the priest more holy. What makes a priest holy, as well as anyone else, is what is in their soul, and that is God’s Grace.

There is this one canon from the Council of Trent: CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

I do not believe though that makes holy orders a higher calling, but celbacy.
But it does not mean it makes one holier though either

 

[Hegesippus]

I think Edwin is a Episcopalian Priest-
Senior Member on this Forum-is Edwin male or female?

However, Hegessipus, women who are “are ordained” by a bishop are not priestess, and are not of any validity in the Catholic Church.
The Bishop who “ordains” this woman is not following the teachings of the Church.

Lisa

I am not asking about the Episcopalians. I was trying to understand your opinion about ordination. A women can not receive the sacrament, even if the pope were to “ordain”, that woman would not be a priest. Only a man can receive the sacrament of Holy Orders

 

[NotWorthy]

There is this one canon from the Council of Trent: CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

I do not believe though that makes holy orders a higher calling, but celbacy.
But it does not mean it makes one holier though either

It also doesn’t mean that if one is not a priest, one can’t be celibate. So my statement, or rather my thought, still stands. Just because you are a priest, does not make you holier than anyone else.

 

[jmcrae]

I think Edwin is a Episcopalian Priest-
Senior Member on this Forum-is Edwin male or female?

“Edwin” is typically a man’s name - it is of Welsh origin. The feminine form would be “Edwina.”

 

[lrs]

I once went to a seminar taught by famed author John Shea
John state that “Virgin” meaning of the Spirit, collided with Mother, meaning of the earth. The two merged as one by Full Grace. So be it, Virgin Mary Mother of God, Full of Grace.
So, for you to reference celibacy as Holy, alright I’ll accept that.

However, this celibacy does in no way supercede the state of Holiness of the coming together as Man and Woman, as ONE.

Blessings,
Lisa

 

[Mickey]

Then why are people in this very thread labelling Edwin as a “radical feminist,” even though all he is doing is asking about this?

First off my good friend–who has point blank labeled Edwin as a “radical feminist”? Secondly, Edwin is in favor of women’s ordination, but his church ordains women. So how could you label him as such? But if you are Catholic, and you favor women’s ordination, then personally, I would have to question the individual’s motives.

If we should not label inquirers as “feminists” then let us (please?) cease to do so.

I sure hope this is not an accusation–because if it is, then you have misunderstood me.

P.s–Honest inquiry does not include rebelling against the sacrament of Holy Orders the way it has been understood for 2000 years. (wink, wink)

 

[Mickey]

However, this celibacy does in no way supercede the state of Holiness of the coming together as Man and Woman, as ONE.

And don’t forget–in the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church it is possible for the man to be married before ordination.

 

[MariaG]

Example of honest inquiry into the question of why women can not be priests. Real situation.

A teenage girl asks the question of why no women priests. Received some fluffy answers. Still has questions because the question was never truly answered to begin with.

Explain to her that the understanding of the Church is that the Priest stands for Christ the groom, for His Church the Bride. And if a women were a priest it would constitute a lesbian relationship.

Understanding is now there as to why the church says no women priests. Still questions why that understanding can’t change, but accepts that the church says it can’t.

If this girl were to continue to espouse a desire to see/become a priest, because she believes the church is wrong, while she may not be a “radical feminist” she will definitely be in defiance of Church authority. And the road down to “radical feminism” is relatively short.

 

[Mickey]

Example of honest inquiry into the question of why women can not be priests. Real situation.

Excellent example. I stand corrected in all humility.

 

[FCEGM]

Dear FCEGM,
I have never read that, but just did.
It just seemed natural and common sense to me. Purity in truth and Wisdom.

It’s good to see that you have no problem now in assenting to the Church’s teaching regarding the male-only priesthood.

Now where you and i will differ, I said this on a previous post:Biologically, Women have been annointed to give Birth and be nurturing mothers to Life’s Miracle of Creation… This to me, is a Holy and Sacred responsibility. I, for One, do not feel that women “should be priests” Let it be understood, however, that we have all been annointed with our own special gifts. Spiritually, we are all equal. There is no disputing that. Christ dwells in all of us equally and without favor.

Actually, there is disputing that. Objectively Christ dwells in all in the state of grace; but the intensity of that indwelling will differ subjectively according to each person’s response to the Divine Indwelling. When He sees the response of the soul, He favors that one with further graces to build up the strength of divine charity in the soul. The Saints and Blesseds have responded with the fullness of their individual beings to the workings of grace, but even amongst them there are those who are of a greater stature, having imaged Christ more fully than another during their lives. Of course, as I wrote earlier, one may not be comfortable with the thought that another has more fully corresponded to God’s grace than oneself.

There is a whole hierarchy of sanctity among the Communion of the Saints; one humbly prays to allow the Lord to bring him to whatever may be his proper place in that great company (“Come higher”, He says to the most humble.) Cardinal Merry Del Valle wrote the beautiful “Litany of Humility”; one of the lines reads: “That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.”

It is very much not a matter of: women should not be priests because merely the virtue of their gender, but much more a thought of what are the gifts we have been given and how well do we beg for and obey the Will of God in our lives and use these gifts to serve others.

OTC, it is very much a matter of gender as to whom the Church permits to be ordained as a priest. Christ is High Priest-as-male, male-as-High Priest. His maleness is not incidental to Him (no person’s gender is simply incidental to who that person is). Suggesting that whether a priest is a man or a woman is a matter of personal gifts, implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference with regard to the Incarnation of God, and that implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference as such. But such is a superficial understanding of human nature, the Incarnation, and so the symbolism of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, for the Church considers it a very deep question as part of Divine Revelation.

To quote myself in an earlier post:

The Church is teaching that the difference between being a man or a woman goes to the heart of the Divinely-revealed Mystery of the Incarnation of God as a Man, or to put it in reverse, that the BASIC Mystery of the Incarnation is necessarily connected in fact with Our Lord choosing only men to be Apostles (as opposed to the ethnic difference of Jew/non-Jew) since the Twelve are to be icons or living images of THIS MAN JESUS in being His priests. That distinction is not important for Baptism or Confirmation, but it is for Holy Orders.

Further, not all men who have extraordinary gifts are called to the priesthood, just as not all men called to the priesthood have extraordinary gifts.

Is it Heresey to believe that a woman annointed for child birth is equally Holy and Sanctified as a Priest who consecrates the Eucharist.

Since by virtue of his ordination a priest has experienced an ontological change in his being, he is now assimilated to Christ, the Eternal High Priest. (This is a De Fideteaching of the Church, btw.) By virtue of this assimilation, the priest in his person is of a greater sanctity as priest (which is why striking a priest is a mortal sin, because one is in essence striking Christ, the High Priest); regarding his personal sanctity, that may be higher or lower than another given person’s, male or female.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

My purpose is that I do not want anyone on this forum adhering to the fact that women are not naturally, by their God given birth right, Holy and Sanctified enough to be Priests. Not fair to call them disobedient feminists- not you in particular- but do you know how quickly ears will close and communication will cease, evangelization will stop, and judgment will abound, when people speak this way!!

Well, as I said above, a woman’s holiness and sanctity is not the issue regarding her suitability to be called to the priesthood. Some who call for priestesses in the Church are unfortunately often ignorant as to the Church’s reasons. These can be persuaded by presenting them with the Church’s teaching if they are of good and humble heart. But others who are well-aware of the Church’s reasons still vociferously fight against the Church, thinking that they know better than the Church. Such truly are disobedient and it is no service to them to couch one’s words in sweetness and light in hopes of penetrating a hardness of heart that will not be moved by the Truth of Christ teaching through His Church.

 

[Contarini]

“Edwin” is typically a man’s name - it is of Welsh origin. The feminine form would be “Edwina.”

Yes, I am male.
No, I am not a priest. I’m an Episcopalian layman with a lot of ties to the UMC as well (my wife is a Methodist deacon).
And actually the name “Edwin” is Anglo-Saxon. Edwin of Northumbria (7th-century, northern England, responsible for the Christianization of his kingdom) was locally venerated as a saint and is in some Catholic calendars (actually I think his feast day is sometime round about now).

Edwin