Why can't women simply say "I'm not interested." to men?

[underacloud]

Yes–theoretically, this should be a game that both can win.

Speaking of weirdness, I find it really bizarre when the single guys huddle together, offering each other the inside scoop on women and competing against other men. If it’s this deadly winner-takes-all competition, why are your competitors being so helpful? That makes no sense.

The reason being that in some men’s twisted minds, any time a man somewhere gets a woman to have casual sex with him, it’s a win for all men. It’s a gradual whittling away at the collective chastity, or simply reluctance, of women and makes casual sex increasingly available to all men (they hope).

Again, it’s the whole us-vs-them mentality.

Moreover, it’s all a game. This is implicit in many of the questions and suggestions single men make in these posts, about playing the bad boy, or working out how to read women, etc. They are all plots to win at a game. This is not how good marriages are made though.

 

[Xantippe]

some women are flakes and string men along and can’t be mature. I’ve been blocked on dating sites merely for writing them a message. now that hurts. women might make up a story, etc. BUT, men don’t take rejection well, and often can’t handle a black and white answer, so a woman is taught to “string them along” until they get the hint. also, some women like to be eternally “wanted” and don’t want to settle. Men do, too.

I’ve seen that particular behavior mentioned as happening with guys, too–people who want to text and text and somehow can’t pull it together to meet in person. (I saw that complaint today or yesterday–on reflection, I wonder if the elusive texter wasn’t a 13-year-old boy.)

Something to bear in mind is that anybody who is dating a lot will wind with a list of grievances with regard to stuff the opposite sex does, without reflecting on the fact that since they aren’t attempting to date their own sex, they’re not going to wind up with the same dossier of bad behavior for their own sex.

 

[MacQ]

Dude, your post was unnecessary and you’re just slinging mud at this point.

By the way, dating advice websites and gurus DO tell men NOT to seek advice about dating from women. Because women say conflicting things due to the complexity of their feelings. For example, women will say they don’t want a bad boy, but fall for bad boys all the time. Why? It’s the conflicting feelings they experience when the right bad boy approaches them.

The issue is not understanding women in general. Rather, it’s understanding how to be more than friends with women–stuff that men spend their lives learning.

So yes, although what women say is insightful, I’d rather get advice from men about this topic. Men’s advice governs here.

Dude yourself.
You’re on here constantly asking for dating advice.
When you get advice (like get a job, clean up, be a nice person, get into activities where you get to know women casually before you ask them to fork over)…you reject it because you know best.
Then you get petulant and angry and spew your silly notions about “bad boys”…and finally it comes out that you really resent women for not just giving you what you think you deserve.You’re not asking for relationship advice. You’re asking how to get laid with casual hookups. That’s why you don’t like the advice you’re getting. And it’s also why you’re not succeeding.

Frankly, I hope women have enough sense to stay away from you until you have some sort of change or therapy. It is clear from this and other threads that you have no intention of investing in a relationship…no intention of giving on your part or respect…you just want someone to lay down for you. You can pay someone to do that, which is the kind of relationship you currently deserve.

 

[Sarcelle]

Dude yourself.
You’re on here constantly asking for dating advice.
When you get advice (like get a job, clean up, be a nice person, get into activities where you get to know women casually before you ask them to fork over)…you reject it because you know best.
Then you get petulant and angry and spew your silly notions about “bad boys”…and finally it comes out that you really resent women for not just giving you what you think you deserve.You’re not asking for relationship advice. You’re asking how to get laid with casual hookups. That’s why you don’t like the advice you’re getting. And it’s also why you’re not succeeding.

Frankly, I hope women have enough sense to stay away from you until you have some sort of change or therapy. It is clear from this and other threads that you have no intention of investing in a relationship…no intention of giving on your part or respect…you just want someone to lay down for you. You can pay someone to do that, which is the kind of relationship you currently deserve.

I noticed that too.

Why of all places would guys looking for a cheap lay try to get dating advice from a Catholic forum? There are many places in the manosphere that would give them the support and approval they need.

Even if they are not looking for a cheap lay, another thing I find troubling is the way they regard members of the opposite sex as.the adversary?

 

[MacQ]

I noticed that too.

Why of all places would guys looking for a cheap lay try to get dating advice from a Catholic forum? There are many places in the manosphere that would give them the support and approval they need.

Even if they are not looking for a cheap lay, another thing I find troubling is the way they regard members of the opposite sex as.the adversary?

Indeed.
It’s a pattern. Repetitive–he and a couple of others start numerous threads like this, and the pattern I described is always the same. Which is how I came to my conclusions.
Maybe this is how they get their kicks.

 

[MacQ]

It’s a numbers game brah, don’t get too down.

.

What does that mean?
Numbers? A game?
No wonder you don’t get it.
What are you looking for really?

 

[Xantippe]

Dude yourself.
You’re on here constantly asking for dating advice.
When you get advice (like get a job, clean up, be a nice person, get into activities where you get to know women casually before you ask them to fork over)…you reject it because you know best.

**To do Calilobo justice, he’s done at least some of those things and is feeling very antsy about being a 30-something without having had a serious relationship. It’s a fairly classic case of feeling that you’ve been a “nice guy” all these years and it didn’t work, so it’s time for a different strategy. Am I right, Calilobo?

I think it totally is true though that he’ll have to figure out what he wants: lots of casual sex (unlikely if it hasn’t been happening already) or a wife. There’s a fork in the road there and a different strategy for each goal. Example: a nice car might genuinely impress a casual acquaintance, while a serious romantic prospect might well count it as a negative if she suspected that it was beyond your means.

**

Then you get petulant and angry and spew your silly notions about “bad boys”…and finally it comes out that you really resent women for not just giving you what you think you deserve.You’re not asking for relationship advice. You’re asking how to get laid with casual hookups. That’s why you don’t like the advice you’re getting. And it’s also why you’re not succeeding.

**I think Calilobo has been attempting both strategies because he’s actually interested in both, but it’s not really something you can try simultaneously with the same people. There’s a lot of deception and play-acting in the standard manosphere advice and that stuff is going to collapse like a cheap tent in the course of an actual relationship. We can’t lie and play-act our way into a solid long-term relationship of any kind.

I read CL as being less angry and more just desperate and willing to try ANYTHING.
**

Frankly, I hope women have enough sense to stay away from you until you have some sort of change or therapy. It is clear from this and other threads that you have no intention of investing in a relationship…no intention of giving on your part or respect…you just want someone to lay down for you. You can pay someone to do that, which is the kind of relationship you currently deserve.

 

[MacQ]

To do Calilobo justice, he’s done at least some of those things and is feeling very antsy about being a 30-something without having had a serious relationship. It’s a fairly classic case of feeling that you’ve been a “nice guy” all these years and it didn’t work, so it’s time for a different strategy. Am I right, Calilobo?

I think it totally is true though that he’ll have to figure out what he wants: lots of casual sex (unlikely if it hasn’t been happening already) or a wife. There’s a fork in the road there and a different strategy for each goal. Example: a nice car might genuinely impress a casual acquaintance, while a serious romantic prospect might well count it as a negative if she suspected that it was beyond your means.

I think Calilobo has been attempting both strategies because he’s actually interested in both, but it’s not really something you can try simultaneously with the same people. There’s a lot of deception and play-acting in the standard manosphere advice and that stuff is going to collapse like a cheap tent in the course of an actual relationship. We can’t lie and play-act our way into a solid long-term relationship of any kind.

I read CL as being less angry and more just desperate and willing to try ANYTHING.

Perhaps you’re right and I have misjudged him. I read him as thinking that other guys get immediate sex out of women and he should too if he only had the key approach.

You are definitely right that he’s got to decide one way or the other whether he wants a relationship with a woman or just a series of hookups.
Since he seems to reject all the advice that aims toward a relationship, and seems to be seeking out advice about how to get a woman in bed right away, I tend to think he’s tending toward the latter. Which doesn’t inspire much compassion in me.

 

[sw85]

Definitely don’t use the “get to know the real me” line with anybody ever going forward–it makes it sound like you’ve got bodies in the crawlspace of your house.

Agreed. And it is much too forward.

By the way, dating advice websites and gurus DO tell men NOT to seek advice about dating from women. Because women say conflicting things due to the complexity of their feelings. For example, women will say they don’t want a bad boy, but fall for bad boys all the time. Why? It’s the conflicting feelings they experience when the right bad boy approaches them.

This isn’t (necessarily) conflicting. I don’t want to go to the dentist, but I do. Why? Because the dentist gives me what no one else can give me, namely, professional dental care.

If a woman says she doesn’t want bad boys, and then dates bad boys, the odds are good she is getting something from bad boys that she isn’t getting from other boys – something she would be happy to get from other boys, if they were able to offer it. N.B.: That is NOT hypocrisy, it is NOT confusion, it is NOT dishonesty: it is desperation.

So what is that thing women get from bad boys they don’t get from “nice” guys?

Hint: bad boys don’t say things like “I want you to get to know the real me.”

You know what’s pretty universally attractive? **Confidence **and treating women like normal human beings that you want to get to know.

Ding ding ding ding ding.

The best advice is not to be “nice” or “mean” or “bad”, or whatever, to women. The best advice is to be whatever it is you actually are to women, and to be it boldly and without apology – and not to approach them like a beggar unworthy to stand in their presence. Understand that not all of them will like it/you, and that’s too bad, but not everyone in the world wants to buy what you’re selling, and you’re not entitled to have that.

Bad boys get girls because they are confident, and because so few non-“bad boys” are. If you do not love yourself, why should any woman love you?

 

[Xantippe]

If a woman says she doesn’t want bad boys, and then dates bad boys, the odds are good she is getting something from bad boys that she isn’t getting from other boys – something she would be happy to get from other boys, if they were able to offer it. N.B.: That is NOT hypocrisy, it is NOT confusion, it is NOT dishonesty: it is desperation.

So what is that thing women get from bad boys they don’t get from “nice” guys?

Hint: bad boys don’t say things like “I want you to get to know the real me.”

**Very good. And they don’t say, “I don’t know. What do you want to do?”

A higher energy level, more decisiveness, and actually ASKING may be what’s doing the work, not the badness of the bad boys.

I was looking at a Psychology Today piece on why women don’t ask men out and I made a discovery looking at the chart they gave of number of times men ask women out versus women asking men out. Very interestingly, different men have vastly different levels of activity in asking women out. As I recall, the range was everywhere from 0 a year to 20 a year. Granted, some of the low numbers may be men who got yeses and were able to stop asking for a while, but it does suggest that a lot of men could do better just by doing more.
**

Ding ding ding ding ding.

The best advice is not to be “nice” or “mean” or “bad”, or whatever, to women. The best advice is to be whatever it is you actually are to women, and to be it boldly and without apology – and not to approach them like a beggar unworthy to stand in their presence. Understand that not all of them will like it/you, and that’s too bad, but not everyone in the world wants to buy what you’re selling, and you’re not entitled to have that.

Bad boys get girls because they are confident, and because so few non-“bad boys” are. If you do not love yourself, why should any woman love you?

Yes.

 

[DarkLight]

Of course it also depends on the individual’s definition of “bad boys”. I know some people who would be scandalized at the bad boys I spent my undergrad hanging out with. They were perfectly upstanding gentlemen, they just had long hair and metal band t-shirts and tattoos.

 

[Xantippe]

Of course it also depends on the individual’s definition of “bad boys”. I know some people who would be scandalized at the bad boys I spent my undergrad hanging out with. They were perfectly upstanding gentlemen, they just had long hair and metal band t-shirts and tattoos.

Yeah. There’s an old joke that goes like this:

Question: How can you recognize an extroverted mathematician?
Answer: He stares at other people’s shoes.

Hence, “bad boy cellist” or “bad boy epistemologist” are fairly distinct from “bad boy Chechen mafia enforcer.” In fact, with the latter, I hesitate to use the term “bad boy,” because “Chechen mafia enforcer” sounds less menacing once you add a juvenile term like “bad boy” to it.

 

[Estevao]

What does that mean?
Numbers? A game?
No wonder you don’t get it.
What are you looking for really?

Ok so this is Estevao’s Official Statement™ on the post-sexual revolution dating culture for men. I will quote it for future use, education and edification. Maybe I will make a thread about this at some future date as well.

Like most men, I’m looking for a wife to love, cherish, honor. How it used to work is you’d go to the church and find a woman who was down for that, and you’d get married around the age of 20-22 and have a nice large loving family, and maybe get some vocations to help out the church. However, the dating scene has changed.

This graphic (hereafter referred to as The Graphic®) explains the dating scene in most cases post Betty Friedan’s influential and insidious book “The Feminine Mystique”, when communists/marxists such as Friedan finally succeeded in unleashing their brand of feminism to destroy the family and make people wards of the state (that’s a whole other topic).

The Graphic®

nice guy → turns into → jerk → screws over
↑…↓
screws over ←jerkette ←turns into ←nice girl

Now, post sexual revolution, you have to play the dating game described in the above quote, because for the moulders of the dating game, it’s more “fun” and “exciting”, unlike how it was before during the era of the “feminine mystique” of nuclear families and early marriage. Notice how the nice guy and the nice girl are at the opposite ends of the cycle and, as you can see, nice guy and nice guy never bump into each other (remember, The Graphic® holds for the majority of interactions, there are exceptions, such as traditional groups like trad catholics, amish, and other religious, non-secular groups. Or sometimes the stars align…)

Thus, you can keep trying to find that nice girl if you want, but it’s risky and not likely to happen. Now assuming you don’t want to spend a good portion of your life in grinding celibacy, you have to change tactics.

The way to avoid spending your 20’s in grinding celibacy is to enter the dating scene described by The Graphic® and play the numbers game. That’s not to say that you can’t intend to be a one woman sort of man, like most men are deep down (just like most women are nice girls deep down) but you can’t really let that on because then women these days will think you’re being too “nice” and “needy” and will avoid you like the plague. Once again, as The Graphic® shows, nice guy and nice girl do not generally run into each other.

So assuming you avoid entering the dating scene described by The Graphic® (as many men do, preferring to spend their time playing video games, partying, or chasing money and power) you have to “game” women and game them hard to get any attention. This is what the “jerk” (a.k.a. Bad-Boy) excels at. the “jerk” also has a very socially proficient character, is very “mysterious” yet also very popular, and is able to have lots of women chasing after him so he is pre-approved by other women, which makes you attractive to women, especially that nice girl.

How this transformation happens is that nice guy, who usually is unaware of the truth of The Graphic® at the start, jumps into the dating field and meets a “jerkette” who breaks his heart.

This heartbreak makes nice guy realize the truth of The Graphic® and that he has to be like the jerk to get to the nice girl.

Hopefully, the “jerk” and nice girl are able to settle down one day and have a nice family, once the wear and tear from the dating scene heal.

Of course SW85 and many women say this is all stupid, they say “just be yourself”, that The Graphic® is insane and not true to reality, and eventually, nice girl and nice guy will bump into each other.

However, the reality is that there are millions of frustrated chumps out there doing just that who are living in grinding celibacy. They have tried to get the nice girl without entering the scene which The Graphic® described.

Women will probably also say that this character I’m advocating is “creepy” because you’re not “really” the bad boy jerk they love and adore, you’re just acting. But of course women like to think that the bad boys they love are not acting too, that they’re really like that, because they really like that and don’t want to believe it’s just a mask that some men have learned to put on better than others via experience in the dating scene as described by The Graphic®.

So it’s just the reality of the dating game post sexual revolution. It’s a numbers game like I said to Calilobo, and to play you have to be very adept, you have to really become a jerk.

Just like Xantippe said in that psychology today article, ask out more women and you’ll have better results. This is another way of saying “Estevao’s Official Statement™ is an amazing description of the dating scene!”

Thanks for reading and God Bless.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

So assuming you avoid entering the dating scene described by The Graphic® (as many men do, preferring to spend their time playing video games, partying, or chasing money and power) you have to “game” women and game them hard to get any attention. This is what the “jerk” (a.k.a. Bad-Boy) excels at. the “jerk” also has a very socially proficient character, is very “mysterious” yet also very popular, and is able to have lots of women chasing after him so he is pre-approved by other women, which makes you attractive to women, especially that nice girl.

How this transformation happens is that nice guy, who usually is unaware of the truth of The Graphic® at the start, jumps into the dating field and meets a “jerkette” who breaks his heart.

This heartbreak makes nice guy realize the truth of The Graphic® and that he has to be like the jerk to get to the nice girl.

Hopefully, the “jerk” and nice girl are able to settle down one day and have a nice family, once the wear and tear from the dating scene heal.

Of course SW85 and many women say this is all stupid, they say “just be yourself”, that The Graphic® is insane and not true to reality, and eventually, nice girl and nice guy will bump into each other.

However, the reality is that there are millions of frustrated chumps out there doing just that who are living in grinding celibacy. They have tried to get the nice girl without entering the scene which The Graphic® described.

There is one issue at the core of this, and it is that you and the rest of these other “chumps” mistake ‘socially proficient’ for ‘bad boy’.

The problem is that it is very difficult to fake being a bad boy, and impossible to fake social proficiency.

 

[underacloud]

Estevao, I don’t know where to begin…

I guess anyone reading this can decide for themselves. They can take your advice and no doubt earn the same results you do.

Or they can take the advice of the many happily married people here on CAF, who never took on the role of the jerk/jerkette.

To put it another way, “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”. Your model doesn’t even work for you, so why would anyone else give credence to it?

 

[Estevao]

There is one issue at the core of this, and it is that you and the rest of these other “chumps” mistake ‘socially proficient’ for ‘bad boy’.

The problem is that it is very difficult to fake being a bad boy, and impossible to fake social proficiency.

If you only would have quoted the next paragraph, where Estevao’s Official Statement™ addressed this objection.

 

[SuperLuigi]

maybe I should’ve warmed her up and did a little flirting first.

:yup:

 

[SuperLuigi]

(Bolding mine)

This. Who would even want to go out with a man who viewed himself as being in a constant competition to “get” a woman? And it’s strange enough when men feel that they’re competing against other men, but when they feel like their competing against that woman to “get” her? Big red flag.

You know what’s pretty universally attractive? Confidence and treating women like normal human beings that you want to get to know.

This post should be framed.

Here’s your prize: :yeah_me:

 

[Estevao]

Estevao, I don’t know where to begin…

I guess anyone reading this can decide for themselves. They can take your advice and no doubt earn the same results you do.

Or they can take the advice of the many happily married people here on CAF, who never took on the role of the jerk/jerkette.

To put it another way, “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”. Your model doesn’t even work for you, so why would anyone else give credence to it?

I take Estevao’s Official Statement™ to be a consistent, coherent description of the dating scene as it currently stands, and probably the best post I have ever made or will ever make in the Family Life section of CAF. It is my “Summa Datingiae”.

Edit: Actually on second thought I would compare what I’ve written to the modern philosophy of the Empiricists and Naturalists. Catholic sexual ethics, i.e. sane sexual ethics, is what I would compare to the philosophy found in the Summa Theologiae.

My Official Statement™ doesn’t work in real life as you say, but lots of people think it’s true and believe it.

I only hope that something will happen to make it all come crashing down. Same goes for the modern philosophy.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Ok so this is Estevao’s Official Statement™ on the post-sexual revolution dating culture for men. I will quote it for future use, education and edification. Maybe I will make a thread about this at some future date as well.

Like most men, I’m looking for a wife to love, cherish, honor. How it used to work is you’d go to the church and find a woman who was down for that, and you’d get married around the age of 20-22 and have a nice large loving family, and maybe get some vocations to help out the church. However, the dating scene has changed.

This graphic (hereafter referred to as The Graphic®) explains the dating scene in most cases post Betty Friedan’s influential and insidious book “The Feminine Mystique”, when communists/marxists such as Friedan finally succeeded in unleashing their brand of feminism to destroy the family and make people wards of the state (that’s a whole other topic).

The Graphic®

Now, post sexual revolution, you have to play the dating game described in the above quote, because for the moulders of the dating game, it’s more “fun” and “exciting”, unlike how it was before during the era of the “feminine mystique” of nuclear families and early marriage. Notice how the nice guy and the nice girl are at the opposite ends of the cycle and, as you can see, nice guy and nice guy never bump into each other (remember, The Graphic® holds for the majority of interactions, there are exceptions, such as traditional groups like trad catholics, amish, and other religious, non-secular groups. Or sometimes the stars align…)

Thus, you can keep trying to find that nice girl if you want, but it’s risky and not likely to happen. Now assuming you don’t want to spend a good portion of your life in grinding celibacy, you have to change tactics.

The way to avoid spending your 20’s in grinding celibacy is to enter the dating scene described by The Graphic® and play the numbers game. That’s not to say that you can’t intend to be a one woman sort of man, like most men are deep down (just like most women are nice girls deep down) but you can’t really let that on because then women these days will think you’re being too “nice” and “needy” and will avoid you like the plague. Once again, as The Graphic® shows, nice guy and nice girl do not generally run into each other.

So assuming you avoid entering the dating scene described by The Graphic® (as many men do, preferring to spend their time playing video games, partying, or chasing money and power) you have to “game” women and game them hard to get any attention. This is what the “jerk” (a.k.a. Bad-Boy) excels at. the “jerk” also has a very socially proficient character, is very “mysterious” yet also very popular, and is able to have lots of women chasing after him so he is pre-approved by other women, which makes you attractive to women, especially that nice girl.

How this transformation happens is that nice guy, who usually is unaware of the truth of The Graphic® at the start, jumps into the dating field and meets a “jerkette” who breaks his heart.

This heartbreak makes nice guy realize the truth of The Graphic® and that he has to be like the jerk to get to the nice girl.

Hopefully, the “jerk” and nice girl are able to settle down one day and have a nice family, once the wear and tear from the dating scene heal.

Of course SW85 and many women say this is all stupid, they say “just be yourself”, that The Graphic® is insane and not true to reality, and eventually, nice girl and nice guy will bump into each other.

However, the reality is that there are millions of frustrated chumps out there doing just that who are living in grinding celibacy. They have tried to get the nice girl without entering the scene which The Graphic® described.

Women will probably also say that this character I’m advocating is “creepy” because you’re not “really” the bad boy jerk they love and adore, you’re just acting. But of course women like to think that the bad boys they love are not acting too, that they’re really like that, because they really like that and don’t want to believe it’s just a mask that some men have learned to put on better than others via experience in the dating scene as described by The Graphic®.

So it’s just the reality of the dating game post sexual revolution. It’s a numbers game like I said to Calilobo, and to play you have to be very adept, you have to really become a jerk.

Just like Xantippe said in that psychology today article, ask out more women and you’ll have better results. This is another way of saying “Estevao’s Official Statement™ is an amazing description of the dating scene!”

Thanks for reading and God Bless.

You do realize that nice guy doesn’t have to turn into jerk, and nice girl does have the choice not to turn into a jerkette right? I mean, I’m fairly certain that you were saying all this tongue in cheek with a degree of truth, but people can choose to remain unchanged by the evil actions of those around them… Difficult, yes. Impossible or improbable, no.

I would agree that a few bad apples, spoils the bunch. In your model you admit that jerk would spoil (I don’t mean pamper here, but ruin) a nice girl… so why you think that would make for a happy marriage, I have no idea. Recipe for disaster,. Maybe some men don’t know the difference between being exciting and being bad. Maybe they are hardwired to think exciting always equals being ‘bad’, danger etc,? You can be civil and exciting and moral. Its totally possible.

Almost afraid to ask what "grinding celibacy’ means. ! Sounds kind of risque.