Why can't women simply say "I'm not interested." to men?

[MacQ]

Ok so this is Estevao’s Official Statement™ on the post-sexual revolution dating culture for men. I will quote it for future use, education and edification. Maybe I will make a thread about this at some future date as well.

Like most men, I’m looking for a wife to love, cherish, honor. How it used to work is you’d go to the church and find a woman who was down for that, and you’d get married around the age of 20-22 and have a nice large loving family, and maybe get some vocations to help out the church. However, the dating scene has changed.

This graphic (hereafter referred to as The Graphic®) explains the dating scene in most cases post Betty Friedan’s influential and insidious book “The Feminine Mystique”, when communists/marxists such as Friedan finally succeeded in unleashing their brand of feminism to destroy the family and make people wards of the state (that’s a whole other topic).

The Graphic®

Now, post sexual revolution, you have to play the dating game described in the above quote, because for the moulders of the dating game, it’s more “fun” and “exciting”, unlike how it was before during the era of the “feminine mystique” of nuclear families and early marriage. Notice how the nice guy and the nice girl are at the opposite ends of the cycle and, as you can see, nice guy and nice guy never bump into each other (remember, The Graphic® holds for the majority of interactions, there are exceptions, such as traditional groups like trad catholics, amish, and other religious, non-secular groups. Or sometimes the stars align…)

Thus, you can keep trying to find that nice girl if you want, but it’s risky and not likely to happen. Now assuming you don’t want to spend a good portion of your life in grinding celibacy, you have to change tactics.

The way to avoid spending your 20’s in grinding celibacy is to enter the dating scene described by The Graphic® and play the numbers game. That’s not to say that you can’t intend to be a one woman sort of man, like most men are deep down (just like most women are nice girls deep down) but you can’t really let that on because then women these days will think you’re being too “nice” and “needy” and will avoid you like the plague. Once again, as The Graphic® shows, nice guy and nice girl do not generally run into each other.

So assuming you avoid entering the dating scene described by The Graphic® (as many men do, preferring to spend their time playing video games, partying, or chasing money and power) you have to “game” women and game them hard to get any attention. This is what the “jerk” (a.k.a. Bad-Boy) excels at. the “jerk” also has a very socially proficient character, is very “mysterious” yet also very popular, and is able to have lots of women chasing after him so he is pre-approved by other women, which makes you attractive to women, especially that nice girl.

How this transformation happens is that nice guy, who usually is unaware of the truth of The Graphic® at the start, jumps into the dating field and meets a “jerkette” who breaks his heart.

This heartbreak makes nice guy realize the truth of The Graphic® and that he has to be like the jerk to get to the nice girl.

Hopefully, the “jerk” and nice girl are able to settle down one day and have a nice family, once the wear and tear from the dating scene heal.

Of course SW85 and many women say this is all stupid, they say “just be yourself”, that The Graphic® is insane and not true to reality, and eventually, nice girl and nice guy will bump into each other.

However, the reality is that there are millions of frustrated chumps out there doing just that who are living in grinding celibacy. They have tried to get the nice girl without entering the scene which The Graphic® described.

Women will probably also say that this character I’m advocating is “creepy” because you’re not “really” the bad boy jerk they love and adore, you’re just acting. But of course women like to think that the bad boys they love are not acting too, that they’re really like that, because they really like that and don’t want to believe it’s just a mask that some men have learned to put on better than others via experience in the dating scene as described by The Graphic®.

So it’s just the reality of the dating game post sexual revolution. It’s a numbers game like I said to Calilobo, and to play you have to be very adept, you have to really become a jerk.

Just like Xantippe said in that psychology today article, ask out more women and you’ll have better results. This is another way of saying “Estevao’s Official Statement™ is an amazing description of the dating scene!”

Thanks for reading and God Bless.

Well then. You seem to have it all worked out perfectly.
I can see how acting like a jerk could be a real success. You have a graphic to prove it!
I’m convinced.
I think you guys should continue acting like jerks…given your analysis and all, it’s likely to net you what you truly deserve.

 

[runwaymodel]

Type of women I’m dating? LA women. I noticed you’re in LA as well. What’s your take on LA women? I notice many men and women in LA are unstable due to the cost of living and the nature of their careers. “Too much going on in life at the moment. I’m not in a place where I should be dating right now.”

But it does make logical sense that straight men should get dating advice from straight men, because they are the ones that have life experience in trying to date the women, right? It would be like a woman trying to get advice about menstruation and breastfeeding from a male health professional, instead of another woman. No matter how brilliant, it doesn’t have the same power that comes from perspective.

To address the last paragraph first, men getting advice from other men (whether straight or not) about dating women always makes me laugh because men don’t have a clue about what women want–in fact, sometime the advice they give is the opposite–that’s why men should ask a female for advice. So your comparison about women going to a male health professional about advice to only applies to woman, makes little sense.

And yes I do live in Los Angeles but I haven’t found it that difficult to date. You just need to be more selective and have a ‘no nonsense’ approach. I won’t waste my time on a second date if there is no potential. I honestly am a firm believer that you attract the energy that you out out. If you’re unstable in line you can’t expect to attract a stable person. So yes, some people are a little weird or unrealistic here because they are chasing the dream …but then you should have seen those people aren’t dateable in the first place.

 

[runwaymodel]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I actually know a bad boy metaphysician. He’s married 20+ years, Catholic, has four kids, is really good at what he does, but he’s definitely a bad boy (although I think that’s kind of a stupid term)–lots of confidence, lots of energy, not risk averse, lots of passionate engagement with whatever he happens to be doing, etc.

I don’t consider that a bad boy because I have all those traits, and I’m definitely not a bad girl–I think that’s more of a passionate, adventurous person.
To me a bad boy is a person who doesn’t care about authority or consequences, can’t hold down a job because he wants to do things on “his terms”, selfish, indulgent, is only after conquests and not relationships, gets into fights, breaks the law (does drugs, underage drinks, etc)–that’s why I’ve never found bad boys attractive. They are irresponsible losers, IMO.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t consider that a bad boy because I have all those traits, and I’m definitely not a bad girl–I think that’s more of a passionate, adventurous person.

**Yeah. I don’t like the terminology either. When people talk about “bad boys” being successful with women, I think that they may not realize that the positive feature of the “bad boy” do have an independent life of their own: passion, confidence, engagement, energy, adventurousness. They ought to ask themselves, is it that women like “bad boys” and don’t like my sweet self, or is it that women (and people generally) like passion, confidence, engagement, energy and adventurousness, and that they would often rather take those qualities wrapped up in a bundle with bad stuff rather than not have them at all?

There are genuinely people who like bad boys and bad girls qua bad boys and bad girls, but I think that’s a minority (especially among functional adults).
**
To me a bad boy is a person who doesn’t care about authority or consequences, can’t hold down a job because he wants to do things on “his terms”, selfish, indulgent, is only after conquests and not relationships, gets into fights, breaks the law (does drugs, underage drinks, etc)–that’s why I’ve never found bad boys attractive. They are irresponsible losers, IMO.

Yeah, you really only need a little bit of time (if you’re a reasonably intelligent, prudent person) around that sort of person to realize that it’s going to be a long life married to somebody like him and that they are not going to be carrying their fair share of life’s burdens.

As I often say on this sort of thread, I used to be smitten with a bad boy, but I was 12 years old at the time. (He was a 15-year-old who had somehow found himself in the 7th grade science class.) I think I was totally over that phase by the time I was 16.

 

[Cricket2]

It can go both ways. I had trouble with a guy who would not take no for an answer.

We seem to live in a society where NO is not well understood, or where plain, simple English is dismissed for rhetoric.

If your not interested say so, and if need be, explain what that means to the other party. I will tell people straight up if I want to be friends or not, or if I am interested in them romantically. (The romantic one is long in the past.)

I will tell them why too. I learned long ago, that the “be nice” approach just does not work. I am not rude, but I will let the person know that our personalities clash, or I don’t care for their behavior or disposition, whatever the issue is. It usually works.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I actually know a bad boy metaphysician. He’s married 20+ years, Catholic, has four kids, is really good at what he does, but he’s definitely a bad boy (although I think that’s kind of a stupid term)–lots of confidence, lots of energy, not risk averse, lots of passionate engagement with whatever he happens to be doing, etc.

If that’s the definition of “bad boy” my husband should be in a supermax facility.

Confidence, taking charge, interacting easily with others, etc in no way equals jerk. But I think that many socially inept people see funny, confident, and charming people as fake. They mistake being respected for being “bad”, and when they see someone easily take charge of a situation, they think “jerk”.

But so often that’s not the case. Usually, well-liked people are well-liked for a reason.

I think what we end up seeing in a lot of these threads is just good old fashioned bitterness, resentment, and jealousy.

 

[MacQ]

Here’s the problem, guys.
You are obsessing about how to get free sex. The kind you perceive your bad-boy bretheren are getting and you’re not.

As long as you do that, you will come across as a horney, needy loser who is just out to use women. No way you can fake or hide that.

The remedy is to stop your obsession, change your whole mindset, and get involved in some hobbies or social groups or volunteer work that puts you among people who are thinking about other things. Go there for those things. Not trolling for sex. You get to know people (including women) casually and gradually. Relationship develop.

Keep at it like you are…trolling and hoping to ‘get lucky’…putting on an act…searching for cool lines…and perhaps you’ll run across women who are drug addled or drunk enough losers themselves not to care what they’re doing with needy losers.

 

[on_the_hill]

Here’s the problem, guys.
You are obsessing about how to get free sex. The kind you perceive your bad-boy bretheren are getting and you’re not.

I’m no sure I agree.

I knew guys very much like those in this thread. They wanted way more than only that. It could be a problem that so many people assume the guys want only free sex that the guys don’t have a fair chance at a good start.

 

[Xantippe]

If that’s the definition of “bad boy” my husband should be in a supermax facility.

Confidence, taking charge, interacting easily with others, etc in no way equals jerk. But I think that many socially inept people see funny, confident, and charming people as fake. They mistake being respected for being “bad”, and when they see someone easily take charge of a situation, they think “jerk”.

But so often that’s not the case. Usually, well-liked people are well-liked for a reason.

I think what we end up seeing in a lot of these threads is just good old fashioned bitterness, resentment, and jealousy.

That sounds about right.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s the problem, guys.
You are obsessing about how to get free sex. The kind you perceive your bad-boy bretheren are getting and you’re not.

As long as you do that, you will come across as a horney, needy loser who is just out to use women. No way you can fake or hide that.

The remedy is to stop your obsession, change your whole mindset, and get involved in some hobbies or social groups or volunteer work that puts you among people who are thinking about other things. Go there for those things. Not trolling for sex. You get to know people (including women) casually and gradually. Relationship develop.

Keep at it like you are…trolling and hoping to ‘get lucky’…putting on an act…searching for cool lines…and perhaps you’ll run across women who are drug addled or drunk enough losers themselves not to care what they’re doing with needy losers.

Yes. That’s the problem with a pure numbers approach. On the one hand, it is true that one needs some patience and willingness to sort through a large number of people, but on the other hand, it’s important to simultaneously be working on self-improvement.

 

[Estevao]

If that’s the definition of “bad boy” my husband should be in a supermax facility.

Confidence, taking charge, interacting easily with others, etc in no way equals jerk. But I think that many socially inept people see funny, confident, and charming people as fake. They mistake being respected for being “bad”, and when they see someone easily take charge of a situation, they think “jerk”.

But so often that’s not the case. Usually, well-liked people are well-liked for a reason.

As I said, women like to think that the bad boys they so love are being “real”, when they’re just good actors and know what women like because they’ve had experience with The Graphic®. That’s why you have some women who become bitter, resentful and jealous after spending their 20s having fun with bad-boys, because they realize they’ve been conned.

All the world’s a stage…

 

[DarkLight]

I think a lot of the good guy/bad guy issues in modern culture, especially evangelical protestantism, have to do with the sort of weird dance around sexuality that they do. Let’s face it, most gals want to be wanted. Even the most chaste woman wants to hear “you’re pretty and I want you.” Heck, you’re looking to marry a guy, you want one who’s going to be excited on the wedding night!

And I think a lot of our culture has forgotten how to do that, even that it’s ok to do that, in a way that isn’t degrading. And that’s something the bad boys often have in abundance, even the ones who really are bad - the ability to make a woman feel like she’s wanted.

 

[Xantippe]

I think a lot of the good guy/bad guy issues in modern culture, especially evangelical protestantism, have to do with the sort of weird dance around sexuality that they do. Let’s face it, most gals want to be wanted. Even the most chaste woman wants to hear “you’re pretty and I want you.” Heck, you’re looking to marry a guy, you want one who’s going to be excited on the wedding night!

And I think a lot of our culture has forgotten how to do that, even that it’s ok to do that, in a way that isn’t degrading. And that’s something the bad boys often have in abundance, even the ones who really are bad - the ability to make a woman feel like she’s wanted.

Exactly.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

As I said, women like to think that the bad boys they so love are being “real”, when they’re just good actors and know what women like because they’ve had experience with The Graphic®. That’s why you have some women who become bitter, resentful and jealous after spending their 20s having fun with bad-boys, because they realize they’ve been conned.

All the world’s a stage…

I do not mean to offend with this question, but it is relevant. Do you fall on the autism spectrum? The way you analyze everything and try to develop a formula for human interaction strikes me as someone who may have Asperger’s. If that is in fact the case then your romantic approach will need to be different than most other people’s.

If you really believe that the happily married men on this board are either bad boys or faking it, and all the happily married women are just being duped by men pretending to be jerks, there is a lot about basic socialization that you just aren’t getting.

 

[Estevao]

I do not mean to offend with this question, but it is relevant. Do you fall on the autism spectrum? The way you analyze everything and try to develop a formula for human interaction strikes me as someone who may have Asperger’s. If that is in fact the case then your romantic approach will need to be different than most other people’s.

If you really believe that the happily married men on this board are either bad boys or faking it, and all the happily married women are just being duped by men pretending to be jerks, there is a lot about basic socialization that you just aren’t getting.

No my problem is just I spend way too much time by myself on the internet reading garbage that warps my view of real life. I do this because I get very awkward and tired when in public setting (introversion = expending energy rather than gaining energy from interpersonal interaction).

Now what’s the solution to this? Well people will say: go outside, cultivate friendships, ask women out, get rejected until you find a nice girl to settle down with. Stop spending so much time online.

Now I’ve done this, but what happens to me and other frustrated chumps is because we do not have social prowess, we get rejected a lot.

But we look down the street and see bad boy having women basically coming to him because he has certain traits (physical and personality). Women like to think that even these personality traits are innate (perhaps materialists and physical determinists would be especially prone to thinking this, believing that nature decides everything about human life and there is no soul or free will or anything like that). But I don’t. I think you can cultivate the traits that bad boys have. Some women, I believe, don’t like think this because they like to think that what attracts them is not something you can just act.

But you see, this seems to me like acting. If I were to “just be myself” as women constantly say, nothing will change. Rejecting will keep on wearing me down. But if I act and implement “game” (as it is called on the internet), I might turn into those bad boys who have women really responsive to them instead of not giving them the time of day.

P.S. no I don’t think I have aspergers. I just looked at a list of its symptoms on webMD and it would be a stretch for me to fit in this. Of course maybe this long response just offers more evidence that I am an aspie.

 

[Sarcelle]

No my problem is just I spend way too much time by myself on the internet reading garbage that warps my view of real life. I do this because I get very awkward and tired when in public setting (introversion = expending energy rather than gaining energy from interpersonal interaction).

Now what’s the solution to this? Well people will say: go outside, cultivate friendships, ask women out, get rejected until you find a nice girl to settle down with. Stop spending so much time online.

Now I’ve done this, but what happens to me and other frustrated chumps is because we do not have social prowess, we get rejected a lot.

But we look down the street and see bad boy having women basically coming to him because he has certain traits (physical and personality). Women like to think that even these personality traits are innate (perhaps materialists and physical determinists would be especially prone to thinking this, believing that nature decides everything about human life and there is no soul or free will or anything like that). But I don’t. I think you can cultivate the traits that bad boys have. Some women, I believe, don’t like think this because they like to think that what attracts them is not something you can just act.

But you see, this seems to me like acting. If I were to “just be myself” as women constantly say, nothing will change. Rejecting will keep on wearing me down. But if I act and implement “game” (as it is called on the internet), I might turn into those bad boys who have women really responsive to them instead of not giving them the time of day.

P.S. no I don’t think I have aspergers. I just looked at a list of its symptoms on webMD and it would be a stretch for me to fit in this. Of course maybe this long response just offers more evidence that I am an aspie.

I have a question for you Estevao and please do not get offended.

What do you really think of women?

From your previous posts, you seem to view them as more or less interchangeable, and are not individuals in their own right. Prizes to be won and which you deserve to win. Lastly, I see a low level form of contempt. If you have been spending time on the internet particularly in the manosphere, than I won’t be surprised as this view of women is promoted there.

You may disagree but this seems to be what your posts seem to be suggesting.

You may say that I am wrong and I do hope that I am wrong.

 

[Estevao]

I have a question for you Estevao and please do not get offended.

What do you really think of women?

From your previous posts, you seem to view them as more or less.jnterchangeable, and are not individuals is their own right. Prizes to be won and which you deserve to win. Lastly, I see a low level form of contempt.

You may disagree but this seems to be what your posts seem to be suggesting.

You may say that I am wrong and I do hope that I am wrong.

I am 100% faithful to the Catholic faith. So I would say that women are created in the image and likeness of God and have an infinite value as a result. They are their own unique persons. Also, I believe that the greatest being, apart from God, is Mary, a woman. There are other verses in the Bible where woman is portrayed as the highpoint of creation.

I don’t think women are a prize to be merited. I think that if a woman comes into my life and I marry her, that will be my God-given vocation.

The problem I see is that many women, and men, in the west, have rejected the Judeo-Christian view of human nature and ethics and have adopted a neo-Darwinian view of human nature, where the strong, successful and good looking are the more valuable people, and that everything is decided by chance, and that life is meaningless and has no ultimate purpose.

When I see women like this, I have a bad tendency to forget my real beliefs and adopt, as you say, and interchangeable view of women.

 

[MacQ]

I am 100% faithful to the Catholic faith. So I would say that women are created in the image and likeness of God and have an infinite value as a result. They are their own unique persons. Also, I believe that the greatest being, apart from God, is Mary, a woman. There are other verses in the Bible where woman is portrayed as the highpoint of creation.

I don’t think women are a prize to be merited. I think that if a woman comes into my life and I marry her, that will be my God-given vocation.

The problem I see is that many women, and men, in the west, have rejected the Judeo-Christian view of human nature and ethics and have adopted a neo-Darwinian view of human nature, where the strong, successful and good looking are the more valuable people, and that everything is decided by chance, and that life is meaningless and has no ultimate purpose.

When I see women like this, I have a bad tendency to forget my real beliefs and adopt, as you say, and interchangeable view of women.

I think you hit it right there, estevao…it comes through in all your posts.
So get back to your core beliefs. The other is a bad habit, and is holding you back.
Take your real beliefs out there with you, not the bad tendency adopted ones.

 

[Sarcelle]

I am 100% faithful to the Catholic faith. So I would say that women are created in the image and likeness of God and have an infinite value as a result. They are their own unique persons. Also, I believe that the greatest being, apart from God, is Mary, a woman. There are other verses in the Bible where woman is portrayed as the highpoint of creation.

I don’t think women are a prize to be merited. I think that if a woman comes into my life and I marry her, that will be my God-given vocation.

The problem I see is that many women, and men, in the west, have rejected the Judeo-Christian view of human nature and ethics and have adopted a neo-Darwinian view of human nature, where the strong, successful and good looking are the more valuable people, and that everything is decided by chance, and that life is meaningless and has no ultimate purpose.

When I see women like this, I have a bad tendency to forget my real beliefs and adopt, as you say, and interchangeable view of women.

Thank you for your response.

Yes I agree that the current dating atmosphere can be soul crushing especially with the Darwinistic atmosphere that seems to have pervaded the culture.

This is why I myself have given up on the whole dating scenario.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

No my problem is just I spend way too much time by myself on the internet reading garbage that warps my view of real life. I do this because I get very awkward and tired when in public setting (introversion = expending energy rather than gaining energy from interpersonal interaction). Well, the first step is to fix the problem. You’ve already identified it and admitted that it’s an issue. I’m not giving you generic “be yourself” advice. I’m saying that since you know you’re reading garbage that is having an effect on you, you should make the conscious choice to surround yourself with more positive material while you are online. You can’t be a victim to your own habits, you need to be in control. I’m an introvert myself, and my husband is even more introverted than I am, so I get that going out with friends and meeting people every night is not your thing. That’s ok, it doesn’t have to be. Just make sure that the energy you do have for socializing is spent wisely. You can probably skip the video game night with your old college buddies, but a birthday party at a restaurant where you won’t know all of the guests might be promising.

Now what’s the solution to this? Well people will say: go outside, cultivate friendships, ask women out, get rejected until you find a nice girl to settle down with. Stop spending so much time online.

Now I’ve done this, but what happens to me and other frustrated chumps is because we do not have social prowess, we get rejected a lot. This is probably your biggest problem. It isn’t that you aren’t good looking enough, successful enough, or enough of a jerk. Women, just like men, are drawn to people who make them feel comfortable, who can hold interesting conversations, and who can navigate a variety of social environments without embarrassment.

But we look down the street and see bad boy having women basically coming to him because he has certain traits (physical and personality). Women like to think that even these personality traits are innate (perhaps materialists and physical determinists would be especially prone to thinking this, believing that nature decides everything about human life and there is no soul or free will or anything like that). But I don’t. I think you can cultivate the traits that bad boys have. Some women, I believe, don’t like think this because they like to think that what attracts them is not something you can just act.
Of course you can cultivate social skills! That’s why I asked if you had Asperger’s, because there are resources available to help even people who have serious psychological barriers learn how to comfortably interact with others. But that doesn’t mean you “fake” it. Trust me, those happily married men are not a secretly awkward and off-putting people who just decided to pretend to be “bad” to get a woman. To start with, that’s pretty hard to fake. And as anyone who has ever been in a serious relationship can tell you, faking personality traits long term is impossible.

But you see, this seems to me like acting. If I were to “just be myself” as women constantly say, nothing will change. Rejecting will keep on wearing me down. But if I act and implement “game” (as it is called on the internet), I might turn into those bad boys who have women really responsive to them instead of not giving them the time of day.
This paragraph makes me feel like I’m trapped in the movie ‘Grease’. What are you going to do? Wear a leather jacket, take up smoking and start bragging about all the women you’ve slept with? This isn’t a 1980’s high school movie.

P.S. no I don’t think I have aspergers. I just looked at a list of its symptoms on webMD and it would be a stretch for me to fit in this. Of course maybe this long response just offers more evidence that I am an aspie.
If you haven’t been formally diagnosed, I wouldn’t worry about it. Diagnosing yourself based on a website can be problematic. A woman called the law office I’m interning at last week wanting to sue her doctor and her ex boyfriend because WebMD told her she had HIV