Why can't women simply say "I'm not interested." to men?

[flyonthewall86]

WOW! 24 pages and over 350 posts…Estevo let me put this issue to rest seriously and allow me to share my situation.

I am a scientist so I like to observe and learn. For starters, a lot of the catcall videos I’ve seen referenced in this thread are shady at best. There was one woman who was paid to act drunk and actors were paid to try to abduct her. The video that came out before that with the woman in jeans was heavily edited so I’m sorry but that makes it VERY suspect. My wife works in the city, is attractive, doesn’t dress differently than that woman, and she has never been catcalled. My wife works on the upper east side. Take a look at that video closely. Many of the guys making comments seem to be the “downtrodden” of NYC. NYC has a very high rate of mental illness among its homeless and less fortunate because mental health is not taken as serious as it should. Many of the guys making comments do not look very well dressed and at that time of day should be in work if they had jobs. I’m sorry but that woman knew where to go to get the reaction she wanted. She exploited the situation many people are in because our society has “disposed” of them and now she’s cashing in at their expense again for political points.

Now Estevo to propose a solution to the problem you posed…By the time I was 22, I was absolutely fed up with trying to guess what women wanted and the absurd logic that a man should make the first move yet has to do so blindfolded in the presence of an ax to his heart. I’m not a mind reader and didn’t have time for games. When I met my wife I saw lots of qualities I found attractive. Despite being interested in her I made a conscience effort to do nothing. It wasn’t really an effort per se. I just went about my life on my terms and if she wanted in ok. I did not chase her and did not pursue her. If she called me on the phone I promptly returned her call as I would have done for anyone else simply out of respect and nothing more. I didn’t play phone games with her. That went on for quite awhile until SHE made the first move.

Once she learned the feelings were mutual boy did I get an earful about how I was “confusing her.” Apparently she took meeting her halfway for dinner once in awhile and returning her phone calls as something out of the ordinary. It really wasn’t for me and probably isn’t for most. That is when I told her “welcome to a guy’s world…hope you realize the grass isn’t as green on this side of the tree as you thought.” We have a good relationship now and she learned to appreciate what I do for her. I think a lot more guys need to do as I did and say “I’m done…their turn” and go solve a real world problem for sport. Chasing after people who have no understanding or appreciation for the challenges you face are not going to make good mates. Until you walk a mile in someone else’s shoes you have no idea what challenges and garbage they have to put up with. My wife learned that early on and we’ve had a very blessed and respectful marriage. Can’t say the same for the guys who thought riding in on a white horse was the way to go…

 

[Xantippe]

WOW! 24 pages and over 350 posts…Estevo let me put this issue to rest seriously and allow me to share my situation.

I am a scientist so I like to observe and learn. For starters, a lot of the catcall videos I’ve seen referenced in this thread are shady at best. There was one woman who was paid to act drunk and actors were paid to try to abduct her. The video that came out before that with the woman in jeans was heavily edited so I’m sorry but that makes it VERY suspect. My wife works in the city, is attractive, doesn’t dress differently than that woman, and she has never been catcalled. My wife works on the upper east side. Take a look at that video closely. Many of the guys making comments seem to be the “downtrodden” of NYC. NYC has a very high rate of mental illness among its homeless and less fortunate because mental health is not taken as serious as it should. Many of the guys making comments do not look very well dressed and at that time of day should be in work if they had jobs. I’m sorry but that woman knew where to go to get the reaction she wanted. She exploited the situation many people are in because our society has “disposed” of them and now she’s cashing in at their expense again for political points.

Now Estevo to propose a solution to the problem you posed…By the time I was 22, I was absolutely fed up with trying to guess what women wanted and the absurd logic that a man should make the first move yet has to do so blindfolded in the presence of an ax to his heart. I’m not a mind reader and didn’t have time for games. When I met my wife I saw lots of qualities I found attractive. Despite being interested in her I made a conscience effort to do nothing. It wasn’t really an effort per se. I just went about my life on my terms and if she wanted in ok. I did not chase her and did not pursue her. If she called me on the phone I promptly returned her call as I would have done for anyone else simply out of respect and nothing more. I didn’t play phone games with her. That went on for quite awhile until SHE made the first move.

Once she learned the feelings were mutual boy did I get an earful about how I was “confusing her.” Apparently she took meeting her halfway for dinner once in awhile and returning her phone calls as something out of the ordinary. It really wasn’t for me and probably isn’t for most. That is when I told her “welcome to a guy’s world…hope you realize the grass isn’t as green on this side of the tree as you thought.” We have a good relationship now and she learned to appreciate what I do for her. I think a lot more guys need to do as I did and say “I’m done…their turn” and go solve a real world problem for sport. Chasing after people who have no understanding or appreciation for the challenges you face are not going to make good mates. Until you walk a mile in someone else’s shoes you have no idea what challenges and garbage they have to put up with. My wife learned that early on and we’ve had a very blessed and respectful marriage. Can’t say the same for the guys who thought riding in on a white horse was the way to go…

Glad it worked out for you.

If there had been somebody more assertive and more clear in their intentions on hand, you might easily have been out of the running.

Also, bear in mind that if a guy is intent on a very traditional or not very experienced young woman, it’s very, very unlikely that she’s going to go after him with a butterfly net and bear traps. The sort of woman who does that is almost certain to be very assertive and to embrace a more egalitarian form of marriage.

 

[on_the_hill]

Glad it worked out for you.

If there had been somebody more assertive and more clear in their intentions on hand, you might easily have been out of the running.

Also, bear in mind that if a guy is intent on a very traditional or not very experienced young woman, it’s very, very unlikely that she’s going to go after him with a butterfly net and bear traps. The sort of woman who does that is almost certain to be very assertive and to embrace a more egalitarian form of marriage.

Or, as my wife would put it, “I’m not wasting my time on a guy who’s not interested.”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Or, as my wife would put it, “I’m not wasting my time on a guy who’s not interested.”

Yeah, I wouldn’t have dated that guy. If you want to turn starting a relationship into an excuse to make some sort of sociological “point” to me…just do me a favor and go away. I don’t have time for that, and I would advise other women to do the same. If he isn’t interested, why bother? There are other good men out there who don’t play games.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Glad it worked out for you.

If there had been somebody more assertive and more clear in their intentions on hand, you might easily have been out of the running.

Also, bear in mind that if a guy is intent on a very traditional or not very experienced young woman, it’s very, very unlikely that she’s going to go after him with a butterfly net and bear traps. The sort of woman who does that is almost certain to be very assertive and to embrace a more egalitarian form of marriage.

Yep. If you’re going to have a traditional leadership dynamic, you have to actually, you know, take the lead.

 

[Xantippe]

Or, as my wife would put it, “I’m not wasting my time on a guy who’s not interested.”

Right.

It’s often actively harmful for a woman to waste time with a man who can take her or leave her.

The same goes for men, of course–full-out pursuit may conclude with you “winning” (through sheer exhaustion or force of flattery or guilt) a woman that isn’t that excited about you.

One needs more than a “meh–nothing’s on TV–OK” response from the person that you hope to spend the rest of your life with, live with for decades, and raise children with.

 

[Xantippe]

Also, bear in mind that there a a number of arts that women have traditionally used to signal interest and attraction.

If it’s all uphill talking to a woman or finding opportunities to spend time with her–there’s a good chance she isn’t interested in you and is warning you off.

If it’s really easy talking to her, if she’s very interested in everything you have to say, if you just “coincidentally” wind up sitting with each other, if there’s an empty seat that just happens to be right beside her, if she just happens to have an extra ticket to something for you, if she invites you to a party, etc, it’s quite possible that she is telling you (in the traditional female way) that she LIKES you. For examples, see the collected works of Jane Austen and count up all of the dozens of minor and elaborate stratagems that her female characters are constantly using to get time with the man they want.

So, one shouldn’t operate on the assumption that women are doing nothing at all in the mating dance. It only looks that way if you don’t know what you’re looking at.

 

[on_the_hill]

Also, bear in mind that there a a number of arts that women have traditionally used to signal interest and attraction.

If it’s all uphill talking to a woman or finding opportunities to spend time with her–there’s a good chance she isn’t interested in you and is warning you off.

If it’s really easy talking to her, if she’s very interested in everything you have to say, if you just “coincidentally” wind up sitting with each other, if there’s an empty seat that just happens to be right beside her, if she just happens to have an extra ticket to something for you, if she invites you to a party, etc, it’s quite possible that she is telling you (in the traditional female way) that she LIKES you. For examples, see the collected works of Jane Austen and count up all of the dozens of minor and elaborate stratagems that her female characters are constantly using to get time with the man they want.

So, one shouldn’t operate on the assumption that women are doing nothing at all in the mating dance. It only looks that way if you don’t know what you’re looking at.

Like if a guy is out with a friend and a girl he thinks might be interested in him shows up at the same place at the same time with one of her friends. What a coincidence!

Or if a woman says, 'I’m teaching a class on on Thursday evening. You should come."

But…if the train car is nearly completely full and a woman asks if she can sit on the empty seat beside you, that’s probably *not *an invitation to ask her on a date.

 

[Mrs_Brenners]

I’m really shocked at the aggressive tone of the original post, and then he wonders why women aren’t straightforward with him. Sheesh.

That there are people out there who are indirect and string others along because they enjoy being admired without the commitment, of this there is no doubt at all. Inconsiderate jerks exist amidst both sexes, to make this simply a female problem is misogynistic and I hope OP has the humility to see that and change it - he might be frustrated, but it takes two to tango and I’d suggest he do some self-reflection as well. OP needs to consider his own behavior, his own attitude and his own expectations when in pursuit of any female. We all need to be self-aware adults before we take on the task of entering into a relationship, especially if you’re looking at marriage.

Consider that perhaps females are indirect because men too have a hard time coming out forthright and having their intentions known. It’s scary because you risk being rejected, but if you want a direct response, you need to pose also a direct question and not just ASSUME that they’ll figure out you’re interested. Too many wishy-washy hint dropping, flirting, and tip-toeing by both men AND women due to FEAR - and then we want to point fingers and engage in this awful war of the sexes when we BOTH have responsibility to each other and each others feelings.

In my past I always had the fortune of having potential suitors be as direct as possible, which allowed me too to be as direct with them and until I met my husband, my response was always NO. I was never harsh and rude, I was honest but also merciful, after all a rejection isn’t meant to reflect upon the worth of the person who is doing the pursuing, but rather the CHOICE and PREFERENCE of the person being pursued. I didn’t say no because I’m just a hateful wench who isn’t being fair and giving the guy a shot, I said it because I knew what I was looking for in a partner and these guys just didn’t have it. It didn’t make them bad guys, but if you’re going to be sensitive and take it personally like it’s some character flaw on your part, I suggest you work on your self-esteem and perhaps also consider making a list of REALISTIC expectations. I suggest this to men AND women!

So if you want a direct response, be ready to pose a DIRECT QUESTION yourself and don’t ask for answers you aren’t prepared to hear! Not all people have the skills it takes to be both honest AND merciful, some people can’t be blunt with others without hurting them in the process!

I also suggest to everyone else, that depending on where you look or who you’re looking at, will greatly affect the quality of your experiences with the opposite sex. If you’re going to look for females or males in bars or other seedy, potentially shady places, please don’t hold out hope that you’re going to have pleasant experiences with drunk people! If you’re looking for a serious mate, marriage material, someone to devote your life heart and soul too who lives the faith, obviously you’re going to look in places that you might find a man or woman who holds those values!

Men and women are so hard on each other, because IMO they both hold UNREALISTIC expectations of each other. Everyone wants honesty, but not to be hurt by it, everyone wants commitment, but isn’t brave enough to flat out say this is what they most desire, everyone wants to meet someone who is for the most part moral, mature, and humble, but then we seek these people out in places or under circumstances where a lot of decent people wouldn’t be in. Society needs to be more realistic with expectations, more committed to a holy standard of living, and more forgiving, my goodness and not just of those who might reject us or not like us, for whatever reason, but also forgiving to ourselves for allowing others to hold our happiness hostage.

 

[Xantippe]

So if you want a direct response, be ready to pose a DIRECT QUESTION yourself and don’t ask for answers you aren’t prepared to hear!

Right.

I also suggest to everyone else, that depending on where you look or who you’re looking at, will greatly affect the quality of your experiences with the opposite sex. If you’re going to look for females or males in bars or other seedy, potentially shady places, please don’t hold out hope that you’re going to have pleasant experiences with drunk people! If you’re looking for a serious mate, marriage material, someone to devote your life heart and soul too who lives the faith, obviously you’re going to look in places that you might find a man or woman who holds those values!

Men and women are so hard on each other, because IMO they both hold UNREALISTIC expectations of each other. Everyone wants honesty, but not to be hurt by it, everyone wants commitment, but isn’t brave enough to flat out say this is what they most desire, everyone wants to meet someone who is for the most part moral, mature, and humble, but then we seek these people out in places or under circumstances where a lot of decent people wouldn’t be in. Society needs to be more realistic with expectations, more committed to a holy standard of living, and more forgiving, my goodness and not just of those who might reject us or not like us, for whatever reason, but also forgiving to ourselves for allowing others to hold our happiness hostage.

Right.

 

[flyonthewall86]

Glad it worked out for you.

If there had been somebody more assertive and more clear in their intentions on hand, you might easily have been out of the running.

Also, bear in mind that if a guy is intent on a very traditional or not very experienced young woman, it’s very, very unlikely that she’s going to go after him with a butterfly net and bear traps. The sort of woman who does that is almost certain to be very assertive and to embrace a more egalitarian form of marriage.

If there was someone more assertive and a woman went for him over another guy, then it wasn’t meant to be. Plain and simple. If you see someone with qualities you are truly passionate about, you don’t give up on them that easily. Besides, there are billions of women in the world so there is hardly a shortage.

Also, my wife is not an egalitarian by any means. She wants to be a stay-at-home mom and homeschool our children.

Or, as my wife would put it, “I’m not wasting my time on a guy who’s not interested.”

So a woman declaring her interest in a man is a waste of time? Am I hearing your wife’s words correctly? In my situation I was interested in my wife and like I said, I made myself available. Why shouldn’t a woman take a risk once in awhile? It builds character.

Yeah, I wouldn’t have dated that guy. If you want to turn starting a relationship into an excuse to make some sort of sociological “point” to me…just do me a favor and go away. I don’t have time for that, and I would advise other women to do the same. If he isn’t interested, why bother? There are other good men out there who don’t play games.

How did a man not making the first move and a man not being interested get equated? I said I was interested in my wife, responded in a timely manner if she called and wanted to make plans, but I was not going to declare my deep interest in her until she was honest about her intentions first. Why do you think a man should have to make the first move especially when so many women here feel men are threatening and can’t take a hint? If my wife wasn’t interested I would have spared her (and myself) of all that misery.

Right.

It’s often actively harmful for a woman to waste time with a man who can take her or leave her.

…

Someone has to make the first move. Why shouldn’t the woman do it if she is really interested? Isn’t that “empowerment?”

Also, bear in mind that there a a number of arts that women have traditionally used to signal interest and attraction.

I’ve had lots of female friends that are very friendly. Some are even very touchy and flirty that clearly have no romantic attraction to me. These so-called “arts” you talk about are not concrete declarations of romantic interest. This is how “nice guys” get into trouble and wind up complaining about the “friend zone.” They think because a woman is nice to that they are interested in them. They hear about these fabled “arts” which are a myth.

 

[Xantippe]

I

Someone has to make the first move. Why shouldn’t the woman do it if she is really interested? Isn’t that “empowerment?”

**1. It’s against societal norms and thousands of years of culture, so it’s not really reasonable to expect it, particularly from a shy, young, inexperienced or traditional woman.

1. If you’re the guy, waiting for women to make an explicit first move could mean a very, very long wait. As in Maytag Repairman type wait.

youtube.com/watch?v=fH0xVkb7jXQ**

I’ve had lots of female friends that are very friendly. Some are even very touchy and flirty that clearly have no romantic attraction to me. These so-called “arts” you talk about are not concrete declarations of romantic interest. This is how “nice guys” get into trouble and wind up complaining about the “friend zone.” They think because a woman is nice to that they are interested in them. They hear about these fabled “arts” which are a myth.

Not at all.

 

[Mrs_Brenners]

Not at all.

Exactly, and for the two reasons listed:

1. It’s against societal norms and thousands of years of culture, so it’s not really reasonable to expect it, particularly from a shy, young, inexperienced or traditional woman.
2. If you’re the guy, waiting for women to make an explicit first move could mean a very, very long wait. As in Maytag Repairman type wait.

Seems like commonsense to me too. Besides, people looking for “empowerment” outside of God are going to be very, very unhappy. This isn’t about power or control, it’s not about mind games unless you allow it to be and lower yourself to that standard. A true God fearing woman and God fearing man will NOT act in such a sick way, because anyway you slice it, whether you play hard to get or flirt outside of a relationship/interest, you are being unstable and unholy.

 

[flyonthewall86]

Exactly, and for the two reasons listed:

1. It’s against societal norms and thousands of years of culture, so it’s not really reasonable to expect it, particularly from a shy, young, inexperienced or traditional woman.
2. If you’re the guy, waiting for women to make an explicit first move could mean a very, very long wait. As in Maytag Repairman type wait.

Seems like commonsense to me too. Besides, people looking for “empowerment” outside of God are going to be very, very unhappy. This isn’t about power or control, it’s not about mind games unless you allow it to be and lower yourself to that standard. A true God fearing woman and God fearing man will NOT act in such a sick way, because anyway you slice it, whether you play hard to get or flirt outside of a relationship/interest, you are being unstable and unholy.

Well, the bolded is something we can agree on.

So just because something has been done for 1000’s of years that makes it the “right” way or the only way? Also, can we let go of this “woman as a fragile flower” attitude. I am 28 and I have yet to meet such a naive helpless woman. Most can take care of themselves just fine and know how to maneuver the field.

Also, I tend to find many (not all) women are “traditional” when it comes to men living up to some expectation but quite modern when it comes to their traditional roles. If a man put in his dating profile that he expected his future mate to be a SAHM and do the housework most women would find that offensive and make a controversy about it. If a woman put in her profile she expects a man to be the breadwinner, handy around the house, mow the grass, fix the car, and make the first move that would hardly be controversial.

Not at all.

Sorry, I don’t buy the mythical “arts” women use to indicate interest. As I said, too often guys get burned for believing in those “arts” only to find that some women are just being nice because that’s their personality. I had a friend in my college days that always wanted to go out for smoothies after class and hangout together at our Newman Club events. When I did ask her out she was “too busy for a relationship” only to go flirt like crazy with a guy a month later.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, the bolded is something we can agree on.

So just because something has been done for 1000’s of years that makes it the “right” way or the only way?

**No, it means that it’s going to be easier and simpler that way in our particular culture. It’s a convention, like driving on the right or the left side of the road.
**

Also, can we let go of this “woman as a fragile flower” attitude. I am 28 and I have yet to meet such a naive helpless woman.

Really? You’ve never met a naive or shy late teen/early 20-something woman? Honestly?

Most can take care of themselves just fine and know how to maneuver the field.

Also, I tend to find many (not all) women are “traditional” when it comes to men living up to some expectation but quite modern when it comes to their traditional roles. If a man put in his dating profile that he expected his future mate to be a SAHM and do the housework most women would find that offensive and make a controversy about it. If a woman put in her profile she expects a man to be the breadwinner, handy around the house, mow the grass, fix the car, and make the first move that would hardly be controversial.

I** think most people would find both versions presumptuous and limited. For instance, a perfectly good prospective husband might have disabilities that would preclude heavy outdoor chores. Or he might have a heavy travel schedule or be well-off enough that his doing yard work would not be economical. (Not to mention that expecting an employed and childless bride to quit her job and mope around a one-bedroom apartment vacuuming all day is a pretty terrible use of human resources, as well as being financially very unwise.)

There’s also a nasty implicit suggestion in that kind of “deal” that if the other party turns out to or becomes unable to have babies, do housework or support a family on a single income, that the writer is planning on dropping them like a hot rock. That’s why even fairly traditional people would raise an eyebrow at those particular lists of expectations and steer clear.
**

**There’s a reason why the standard Catholic marriage vows aren’t, “Bob, do you take this woman to be your housekeeper and dog walker, and Suzie, do you take this man to be your sole financial support?” Real, successful marriages require a lot more flexibility from the participants. Bob will sooner or later not be able to work, and Suzie may have to pick up the slack. Suzie may hate cooking and Bob may be a gourmet, Suzie may be put on bedrest during her pregnancy or find that nausea keeps her out of the kitchen, etc. Real people have different gifts, talents, interests and physical abilities (which may change a lot from year to year or even month to month), and it is smart (as well as more showing more gratitude to one’s creator) to make the most of one’s actual abilities, rather than trying to pound square pegs into round holes. **

Sorry, I don’t buy the mythical “arts” women use to indicate interest. As I said, too often guys get burned for believing in those “arts” only to find that some women are just being nice because that’s their personality. I had a friend in my college days that always wanted to go out for smoothies after class and hangout together at our Newman Club events. When I did ask her out she was “too busy for a relationship” only to go flirt like crazy with a guy a month later.

Why do you, a guy, think you know better than women what women are up to?

(I once concocted a dinner party as a good excuse to get my future husband over to my apartment. Was that feminine arts? You betcha. Did it work? You betcha.)

 

[Mrs_Brenners]

Well, the bolded is something we can agree on.

So just because something has been done for 1000’s of years that makes it the “right” way or the only way? Also, can we let go of this “woman as a fragile flower” attitude. I am 28 and I have yet to meet such a naive helpless woman. Most can take care of themselves just fine and know how to maneuver the field.

Also, I tend to find many (not all) women are “traditional” when it comes to men living up to some expectation but quite modern when it comes to their traditional roles. If a man put in his dating profile that he expected his future mate to be a SAHM and do the housework most women would find that offensive and make a controversy about it. If a woman put in her profile she expects a man to be the breadwinner, handy around the house, mow the grass, fix the car, and make the first move that would hardly be controversial.

Sorry, I don’t buy the mythical “arts” women use to indicate interest. As I said, too often guys get burned for believing in those “arts” only to find that some women are just being nice because that’s their personality. I had a friend in my college days that always wanted to go out for smoothies after class and hangout together at our Newman Club events. When I did ask her out she was “too busy for a relationship” only to go flirt like crazy with a guy a month later.

LOL, I love the idea of men and women being so blunt in what they desire from a partner like lawn mowing and raising children! You need to talk about all that eventually anyway.

Look, I’m a devoted wife and SAHM of three little ones so I’m probably not the right person to ask about these sneaky women who apparently pretend to be traditional to “trap” a man and then go off on some b-tchy feminist trip. I’m not a feminist, I don’t particularly like a lot of feminism either since I honestly don’t object to traditional male/female roles that despite their not being in synch maybe with those of the liberal “progressive” persuasion, IMO are better for our society at large than this weird androgynous, line-blurring we got going on. There are exceptions to everything though and although I get this traditional view is not the only way, for ME and IMO it’s the better way, especially when kids are involved.

In my case being traditional wasn’t just some idea I wanted to sell my husband to lure him in, I think whoever does that needs help. LOL, that just seems evil to me and I highly suggest that instead of being bitter, angry and pessimistic about ALL women, that any man whose had an experience with a woman like that, please look at why or how you’re attracting females like this. Same goes to women, if you’re attracting constantly these ****** people, you need to go a little deeper within and see what role you’re playing in it, unless you just want to spend forever feeling like a victim and judging the opposite sex as “all those conniving men/women who just wanna charm me into thinking they’ll be a good spouse” or “all those conniving men/women who flirt and tease but just leave me hanging”!

Also, I don’t think women or men are helpless, but we have different strengths and weaknesses, which is why we need one another and need to understand that we need to nurture each other in different ways. I don’t think there’s something inherently wrong per se of a woman making the first move and pursuing, I just don’t think it’s as natural even just from a strictly biological/caveman point of view, nor as common and it really shouldn’t be so shocking either or offensive. Men are known to have a brain that doesn’t have the same capacity as a woman to multitask, which makes perfect sense considering they’re supposed to have that “hunter” one-track mind. Should this p-ss me off? I mean I guess it could make me mad that unlike me, my husband can’t answer a homework problem while cooking something on the stove with one hand and getting dishes out with the other…but it doesn’t, that’s okay. I’m ok with being different, I don’t think I need to be, act or think “like a man” to feel important. I’m loved for being the woman that I am, I’ve never aspired to be more than a female. I went to college, I’ve lived in a huge city alone, I’ve worked, paid my own rent, been totally independent. Marriage, motherhood and service to God, my husband, kids and community was my personal choice, not a helpless one.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Well, the bolded is something we can agree on.

So just because something has been done for 1000’s of years that makes it the “right” way or the only way? Also, can we let go of this “woman as a fragile flower” attitude. I am 28 and I have yet to meet such a naive helpless woman. Most can take care of themselves just fine and know how to maneuver the field.

Also, I tend to find many (not all) women are “traditional” when it comes to men living up to some expectation but quite modern when it comes to their traditional roles. If a man put in his dating profile that he expected his future mate to be a SAHM and do the housework most women would find that offensive and make a controversy about it. If a woman put in her profile she expects a man to be the breadwinner, handy around the house, mow the grass, fix the car, and make the first move that would hardly be controversial.

You’re confusing ‘role’ with ‘dynamic’. Traditional gender roles aren’t required for a couple to have a traditional dynamic. My husband and I both work, I’m far more handy than he is, I am the one that can fix cars, and with any luck we will never have a lawn to mow. But that has nothing to do with how we relate to each other. I grew up poor in a rural area, he grew up wealthy in the city. I had to learn to do a lot of things that his family paid others to do. That has nothing to do with being manly or feminine in regards to each other. He is the leader in our marriage, the more aggressive one, and the protector. I take care of him, dress up for him, and actually defer to him most of the time. Even when he had cancer and I was the sole breadwinner, we had the same relationship.

But that relationship was established early. He made the first move, he asked me out, he kissed me, he said ‘i love you’ first, etc. I don’t know that I could have the same respect for him if I had been the one setting the pace and moving us forward.

Some couples want to relate to each other more as equals, and that’s fine. But I have a pretty strong personality, so I was really looking for a man with an even stronger one. It’s a primal thing, sue me.

 

[on_the_hill]

So a woman declaring her interest in a man is a waste of time? Am I hearing your wife’s words correctly? In my situation I was interested in my wife and like I said, I made myself available. Why shouldn’t a woman take a risk once in awhile? It builds character.

Not exactly. Her feeling is that if a woman shows interest in a man, but he plays games it seems non-committal then she’ll move on.

 

[flyonthewall86]

No, it means that it’s going to be easier and simpler that way in our particular culture. It’s a convention, like driving on the right or the left side of the road.

The side of the road we drive on has 0 emotional impact on the way we live. It is not the same thing. Terms of “easy” and “simple” are relative.

Really? You’ve never met a naive or shy late teen/early 20-something woman? Honestly?

No I haven’t and if I did she would be the last one I’d consider a relationship with. A person who has not matured enough to reach for what they want will grab anything they can get their hands on. I’d feel more like the answer to a lack of options than a freely loved guy.

Why do you, a guy, think you know better than women what women are up to?

(I once concocted a dinner party as a good excuse to get my future husband over to my apartment. Was that feminine arts? You betcha. Did it work? You betcha.)

Your experience is quantifiably more anecdotal than mine. In my less enlightened days I was the guy responding to all the “nice gestures” only to get stepped on or scolded (often by supposed friends no less). The fact of the matter is that nice behavior from a woman to a man is no guarantee of a romantic interest. These myths are lies that build a guy up and often result in taring him down. Then when he develops a chip on his shoulder when it comes to the opposite sex, we chastise him for not wanting to commit or being shallow.

You’re confusing ‘role’ with ‘dynamic’. Traditional gender roles aren’t required for a couple to have a traditional dynamic. My husband and I both work, I’m far more handy than he is, I am the one that can fix cars, and with any luck we will never have a lawn to mow. But that has nothing to do with how we relate to each other. I grew up poor in a rural area, he grew up wealthy in the city. I had to learn to do a lot of things that his family paid others to do. That has nothing to do with being manly or feminine in regards to each other. He is the leader in our marriage, the more aggressive one, and the protector. I take care of him, dress up for him, and actually defer to him most of the time. Even when he had cancer and I was the sole breadwinner, we had the same relationship.

But that relationship was established early. He made the first move, he asked me out, he kissed me, he said ‘i love you’ first, etc. I don’t know that I could have the same respect for him if I had been the one setting the pace and moving us forward.

Some couples want to relate to each other more as equals, and that’s fine. But I have a pretty strong personality, so I was really looking for a man with an even stronger one. It’s a primal thing, sue me.

The dynamic influences the roles we assume. I think you missed the point of my posts. I wasn’t arguing against the traditional anything. The dynamic you had between you and your husband meant he fulfilled the role of initiator. As a result he kissed you first. Suppose he had tried to kiss you, you weren’t clear that you didn’t want to kiss, but he was trying to do “what the man is supposed to do” according to this dynamic you speak of. Perhaps in most cases things like this get worked out, but for the ones that it doesn’t this thinking creates serious problems.

I’ve read scores of articles in multiple magazines (and even some research studies) about how “clueless” guys are and how we have terrible people skills, but what do people expect when we’re just supposed to magically interpret these “feminine arts” as the poster above suggests. This is why 40% of first time marriages end in divorce. People don’t communicate and make their intentions crystal clear, but rely on the other person’s non-existent ESP skills.

Everyone is entitled to want what they want. No argument there. What I find fault in is saying its a guys duty to act first based on some fluffy gesture(s) that could be interpreted many ways and then criticizing him for not want something more concrete to go on. Divorce is costly and marriage isn’t for the faint of heart. You do not go bet the house even if the odds are 50/50.

Not exactly. Her feeling is that if a woman shows interest in a man, but he plays games it seems non-committal then she’ll move on.

I didn’t play games with my wife. She called, I called back. She texted, I texted right back. She wanted to make plans, we made plans. If I acted first and she wasn’t interested I’d be just another guy that thinks every nice girl wants to date him. If my wife asked first and I wasn’t interested there would probably be 50 more guys in line. No big deal. That is nature’s dynamic. Studies have shown women have a MUCH easier time getting dates than men do. One study sent a man and woman into a bar. The woman got twice the number of ‘yes’s.’ A woman has nothing to loose by asking a guy out. A guy on the other hand does have something to loose.

The problem with what your wife is saying is the assumption that a man knows shes interested but sends mixed signals to play with her. What I am saying is that unless a woman says she is thinking about things going that direction a man can never really be sure that her acts of kindness are anything more than just acts of kindness. Like I said, I’ve dealt with some very friendly women who by positive confirmation had no romantic interest in me. Just because a woman wants to spend a million hours together and invite you to a party, that doesn’t mean she’s looking for more. Maybe she just wants a good friend that isn’t after her for something. Yet if a guy tries to make something more of it he stands to be branded “just another guy.”

 

[Xantippe]

Not exactly. Her feeling is that if a woman shows interest in a man, but he plays games it seems non-committal then she’ll move on.

Right.

Some of the saddest relationship stories you’ll hear are of men or women who pursued people that were indifferent to them and “won” them.

I’ve probably mentioned this before on this thread, but I feel like (past the first few dates) there ought to be real enthusiasm on both sides.