Why can't women simply say "I'm not interested." to men?

[BlueEyedLady]

I guess saying yes or no as a guy spills his guts is hard…who knew. What are these “HUGE” cultural roadblocks? As I said before, a woman walking into a bar gets far more phone numbers than a guy who does the same. For women, winning a man would be like shopping in a catalog. You pick, choose, and its most likely in stock. For men, winning a woman is like shopping in a store that has a going out of business sale. Almost everything is “out of stock” and not being replenished.

These days with promiscuity being the norm and even celebrated in the media I highly doubt most guys would run away from a woman thinking shes promiscuous for asking them out or moving in for the first kiss.

Your logic doesn’t add up on either point.

1. Unless the population of lesbians in the west has multiplied literally hundreds of times over and literally overnight, then there is no way that most women are taken and most men are single. Just doesn’t happen.
2. Even people who don’t have a problem with promiscuity are still not interested in a scenario where the woman pursues. I have many secular and even promiscuous friends of both genders who just wouldn’t be into that. But regardless, if a woman wants a man who acts counter to what she sees celebrated in the media, then maybe she herself should act differently. I knew that I didn’t want the kind of relationship that is often glorified by the media (drama-filled, jealousy, cheating, fast moving, etc) so I didn’t act like the people portrayed in those situations acted!

And for the record, you’re correct. I can walk into a bar and be approached far more easily than men can. But that has nothing to do with availability, it just means that like we’ve been discussing, men approach more often.

And besides, we’re talking about finding spouses, not picking up people at a bar for one night stands. It’s a completely different animal-or at least is should be.

 

[flyonthewall86]

But was he asking, “Do you have romantic feelings for me?” It’s much more likely that that wasn’t the question he was asking.

We get answers to the questions we actually ask and frankly, “Do you have romantic feelings for me?” is a dumb question to ask a person you’ve never even had dinner with before. We ought to give them a fair chance to develop romantic feelings before putting them on the spot like that. Actual relationships and feelings take time to develop.

There is unavoidably often a lot of ambiguity in early courtship.

Romantic feelings…sexual attraction…doesn’t matter what you put in there its the same question. It all boils down to “do you want to see me as a potential mate for life?” There is no ambiguity there and you don’t meet just total strangers. If you meet online you at least get some sense of each other before you meet in person (i.e. at least a picture and some personality). You seem to be talking about going out on a date with someone, and then they you want to dismiss them after not liking them for some reason. Most of this thread as I see it has been and was about the initial “lets go out” question. Let’s stay on topic.

Also, bear in mind that women may actually be showing gratitude for being asked out by not giving a full, blow-by-blow account of how unattractive they find you

So not being rude is what passes for gratitude these days? Sheesh. I would have hoped no human being thought being rude was ever acceptable. Guess you proved me wrong again…

Gratitude IMO is simply being honest about one’s intentions. If they can’t be honest then they don’t belong in a relationship with anyone.

As I said, a woman considering pursuing a man may be afraid that she will be seen as unfeminine, a failure as a woman, untraditional, sexually promiscuous, or desperate.

Those are all a pretty big deal.

And kids are afraid of the dark. So what. Many fears are irrational and in this case quite unfounded. There are lots of things that used to be considered “unfeminine” like swearing, drinking booze, being a career woman, etc that women seem to have adapted just fine to. Why should this be any different?

Sticks and stones…if you are happily married does the peanut gallery really matter?

And that’s where all the nice Catholic girls and guys spend all their time, right?

I think I’ve been inside a bar maybe three or four times total, always to have lunch or hang out with friends or have dinner with my husband. I have never, never, ever gone to a bar to meet men, and furthermore, I have never allowed a strange man that made overtures to me in public to become more closely acquainted with me. It just isn’t safe and there are much better places to meet people (I met my future husband at a Catholic reading group for young adults).

It was a research study…I’ll contact the authors right away to find a new location you approve of! Any suggestions?

My point is no less valid however. The fact of the matter is these days men would quite frankly be flattered if a woman asked them out and it is highly unlikely that the woman would be turned down. Maybe we should take a poll here at CAF and see how many men would turn a woman down who asked them out. I bet you at least 90% wouldn’t.

The bottom line however is that women can pick and choose with a far lower failure rate than men. One can pontificate about that all they want, but its a fact.

 

[chevalier]

I think of this as being more of a personality issue rather than a gender issue. Some people lack appropriate insight into their own behavior, e.g. some of those “nice” guys and girls are objectively not as nice as they think they are, and it’s my totally unscientific anecdotal experience that a lot of people of both genders just lack the emotional maturity to hear “I don’t think we’re right for each other” and not interpret it as “I think there’s something wrong with you and you’re not good enough for me”. Maybe that’s stratified by gender one way or another, I have no idea if that data exists somewhere, but it certainly seems to be just a general human problem from where I’m sitting.

Yeah, with some variation. I think women in particular find it hard to process the idea that a man might actually not be interested in them, and they may find it hard to live with the idea that they can’t influence the actions of a particular man. On the other hand, I guess men are prone to taking rejections as negative assessments of their worth or aptitude*.

(* Which, quite frankly, they probably often are, just without ill will or contempt involved, most of the time.)

This doesn’t work for me a lot of the time, but that could also be the demographic of guy that I usually spend a lot of time around. Computer people tend not to have the best social skills. On the whole, though, it’s my experience that a firm “No. I’m not going to change my mind. Please stop asking” ends with butthurt and drama.

Yeah, well, that smart quip of yours about the magical cheat code comes to mind. Some people will complain both about the confusion of being let down gently and the bluntness of being told clearly. Human nature, I guess.

However, even those malcontents are right to some extent — it takes some serious people skills to be both nice and clear about letting someone down.

I’ve seen the same thing happen in reverse, though, with the girl being the butthurt pursuer and the guy having to put his foot down about it.

With women, I tend to explain why a relationship would not work out, including conflicts about important issues or inability to compromise on something. Sometimes I’d just tell them they needed a different kind of guy (without questioning their tastes or criteria, as that would be rude, cruel, uncalled for and untrue).

People, amirite? Makes it harder for those of us who try to just say what we mean up front and avoid the confusion.

Like everything else in communication, it depends on the target, but yeah, the sooner the better, but without taking any more liberties than necessary when making it direct. People sometimes bottle up negative emotions about being pursued by someone and then when they start letting that person down, the bottle can burst open. There’s also an inclination and temptation to take it out on the poor soul for the tension and discomfort we feel as objects of unrequited affections. Also need to get over our supposedly violated privacy etc. It’s only normal that someone who’s interested or cares will try again.

The best way is probably to smile and be quick and up to the point about it. No hesitation, no regrets, no doubts, no flipping back and forth. ‘And no, I’m not going to change my mind,’ if needed.

lol Well, I’m no savant, but I managed a respectable bunch of A’s in maths, mostly because I’m too stubborn to let mere calculus get in the way of doing cool things with computers.

Oh yes.

 

[Xantippe]

Romantic feelings…sexual attraction…doesn’t matter what you put in there its the same question. It all boils down to “do you want to see me as a potential mate for life?” There is no ambiguity there and you don’t meet just total strangers. If you meet online you at least get some sense of each other before you meet in person (i.e. at least a picture and some personality). You seem to be talking about going out on a date with someone, and then they you want to dismiss them after not liking them for some reason. Most of this thread as I see it has been and was about the initial “lets go out” question. Let’s stay on topic.

**That’s the problem.

In your hypothetical situation, the question is “Do you want to go bungee jumping with me Saturday morning?” and the answer you want is “I’m not romantically interested in you” or “Marry me!”

Don’t you see that that’s a non sequitur? The answer to “Do you want to go bungee jumping Saturday morning?” is either something like, “Yes! That sounds amazing!” or “I think I’ll be brushing out my angora rabbits that morning.”

It’s unfair to expect that a social invitation should produce an explicit judgment on you as a romantic prospect, rather than a yes or no to the actual invitation.
**

Gratitude IMO is simply being honest about one’s intentions. If they can’t be honest then they don’t belong in a relationship with anyone.

**That’s your opinion.

I would argue that gratitude is being grateful and honesty is being honest, and the two things (while both positive things) are not actually closely related. **

And kids are afraid of the dark. So what. Many fears are irrational and in this case quite unfounded. There are lots of things that used to be considered “unfeminine” like swearing, drinking booze, being a career woman, etc that women seem to have adapted just fine to. Why should this be any different?

**I don’t swear, drink alcohol, and I’m not currently a career woman (although I worked up until we started having kids).

Lots of traditional or devout women likewise don’t swear, drink alcohol, or have careers after having kids (or some combination of those three items).

It’s really weird (and rather unreasonable) to expect a traditional woman to be traditional in all respects…but to chase men.**

Sticks and stones…if you are happily married does the peanut gallery really matter?

I**'m just explaining, from a woman’s point of view, and drawing from my personal history, that you’re being unfair to a lot of women. It’s not necessarily a sign of laziness or entitlement when women do not initiate. When I was in my teens or very early 20s, it would never have occurred to me that that was even an option. Being from a conservative Protestant background, I wasn’t brought up to chase men, just like I wasn’t brought up to drink or swear.

I would definitely encourage women who are not having good luck to be more assertive, but I understand perfectly well why women don’t initiate.
**

The bottom line however is that women can pick and choose with a far lower failure rate than men. One can pontificate about that all they want, but its a fact.

It depends what you mean by “failure rate.” I’ve read on secular dating sites that women who initiate often encounter unreasonable immediate sexual expectations from the men they ask out (and bear in mind, these are secular women complaining).

 

[chevalier]

And kids are afraid of the dark. So what. Many fears are irrational and in this case quite unfounded. There are lots of things that used to be considered “unfeminine” like swearing, drinking booze, being a career woman, etc that women seem to have adapted just fine to. Why should this be any different?

Being desperate is actually fine, as long as one retains ultimate control over one’s actions. It’s only a silly popular culture that: ‘oh no, I can’t go out with anybody who looks even the slightest hint of desperate!’ Rubbish.

I actually fear getting stuck with a woman who just wanted the Mrs, the kids and the mortgage and be done with it, begone with me (in an emotional sense). However, I don’t begrudge women the proverbial ‘twitch’ or longing or privation or repression or whatever else I personally am all too familiar with.

As for booze, well, I sure as heck am not going to complain about not having to drink alone.

 

[flyonthewall86]

It depends what you mean by “failure rate.” I’ve read on secular dating sites that women who initiate often encounter unreasonable immediate sexual expectations from the men they ask out (and bear in mind, these are secular women complaining).

So, they say no and move onto the next guy. They may have to sort through a little muck, but for guys they scratch at the bottom of the barrel until their finger nails bleed…

In your hypothetical situation, the question is “Do you want to go bungee jumping with me Saturday morning?” and the answer you want is “I’m not romantically interested in you” or “Marry me!”

Don’t you see that that’s a non sequitur? The answer to “Do you want to go bungee jumping Saturday morning?” is either something like, “Yes! That sounds amazing!” or “I think I’ll be brushing out my angora rabbits that morning.”

It’s unfair to expect that a social invitation should produce an explicit judgment on you as a romantic prospect, rather than a yes or no to the actual invitation.

Allow me to be more specific here since this is going all over the place…

Gratitude
GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Thank you for asking, but I do not see you and me in that way.
GUY: Oh well, thanks anyway…

Ingratitude
GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Well, I’m really busy with work and family and don’t have time to date right now.
GUY: Ok…: I’ll try again in a few months when things quiet down for her)
GAL (to herself): Glad he understood I’m not interested! Yay me!

It’s really weird (and rather unreasonable) to expect a traditional woman to be traditional in all respects…but to chase men.

I never said women have to be traditional in all respects. The question I posed however was why, if women got over their fear of other things that were labeled as “unfeminine,” can’t they get over their fear asking guys out? I’m trying to understand what the motive is for abandoning some practices but not others.

 

[underacloud]

Ingratitude
GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Well, I’m really busy with work and family and don’t have time to date right now.
GUY: Ok…: I’ll try again in a few months when things quiet down for her)
GAL (to herself): Glad he understood I’m not interested! Yay me!

I don’t think the girl is being ungracious - I think the guy is being dense.

When he asks again a few months later, I’m sure he’ll work it out…hopfully.

 

[Xantippe]

So, they say no and move onto the next guy. They may have to sort through a little muck, but for guys they scratch at the bottom of the barrel until their finger nails bleed…

**???

From everything I hear, the situation is very similar for both sexes.

And frankly, why wouldn’t it be? The sexes are roughly evenly distributed. The arithmetic of it is that for every girl who finds a guy, a guy finds a girl. It’s not like our species has 5 males for every female, which is what your description makes it sound like.
**

Allow me to be more specific here since this is going all over the place…

Gratitude
GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Thank you for asking, but I do not see you and me in that way.
GUY: Oh well, thanks anyway…

Ingratitude
GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Well, I’m really busy with work and family and don’t have time to date right now.
GUY: Ok…: I’ll try again in a few months when things quiet down for her)
GAL (to herself): Glad he understood I’m not interested! Yay me!

**What I always say here is that two “I’m busies” equals a “not interested.”

I use that rule myself all the time in non-romantic social interactions. If I ask another mom for a playdate and she says they’re busy, and I ask her again and they’re busy again, I move on to the next family I’m interested in. Maybe the first family was genuinely busy, in which case they can ask us to something when they’re free, or maybe it’s just that their kid secretly hates my kid, in which case I’ve avoided an unpleasant conversation.

Two invitations and then move on–that’s very clean and easy.

Also, bear in mind that the “Oh well, thanks anyway” is a best case scenario.

nydailynews.com/news/crime/connecticut-girl-killed-jilted-refused-prom-article-1.1768718**

I never said women have to be traditional in all respects. The question I posed however was why, if women got over their fear of other things that were labeled as “unfeminine,” can’t they get over their fear asking guys out? I’m trying to understand what the motive is for abandoning some practices but not others.

This is CAF, and so we’re presumably discussing dating for practicing Catholics and (maybe) serious Protestants. In that environment, no, it’s not true that the women are drinking and partying and swearing and carrying on (with not asking men out being the solitary nod to tradition).

I live in an upper middle class college faculty community in a Texas town, and I can go months (if not years) without hearing a woman swear or seeing a drunk woman (although there’s plenty of wine sipping).

 

[on_the_hill]

Well. It’s good to see so many guys with such reasonable and rational opinions of women.

I never heard of Dalrock. I’ll have to check it out. Sounds like a fun place to troll.

 

[underacloud]

What I always say here is that two “I’m busies” equals a “not interested.”

I think in the world of dating, one “I’m busy” is usually sufficient. But sometimes it does mean merely that they are busy. Asking a second time resolves all doubt.

 

[flyonthewall86]

Also, bear in mind that the “Oh well, thanks anyway” is a best case scenario.

nydailynews.com/news/crim…icle-1.1768718

Ok, so you found 1 instance where it went bad which is purely anecdotal evidence. I’m sure if I searched we could find a few examples of women going psycho too. That doesn’t mean its a epidemic to be concerned about. A recent study shows most guys handle rejection just fine
(yahoo.com/style/tinder-experiment-proves-most-men-are-kind-of-110725185323.html).

 

[Xantippe]

Ok, so you found 1 instance where it went bad which is purely anecdotal evidence. I’m sure if I searched we could find a few examples of women going psycho too. That doesn’t mean its a epidemic to be concerned about. A recent study shows most guys handle rejection just fine
(yahoo.com/style/tinder-experiment-proves-most-men-are-kind-of-110725185323.html).

It’s not just one event–this has happened over and over that men have turned murderously violent over sexual rejection, real or imagined.

"In the note found at the scene in Sodini’s gym bag, he complains he had never spent a weekend with a woman, never vacationed with a woman and never lived with a woman, and that he had had limited sexual experiences, Moffatt said.

“He makes similar complaints in his online blog, which also documents his growing rage at women for rejecting him and at the world he felt had abandoned him.”

cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/05/pennsylvania.gym.shooting/

More recently, of course, we had Elliot Rodger, the Santa Barbara shooter.

“Before driving to the sorority house, Rodger uploaded a video to YouTube, titled “Elliot Rodger’s Retribution”, in which he outlined details of his upcoming attack and the motivations behind his killing spree, which he described as a desire to punish women for rejecting him and also a desire to punish sexually active men for living a better life than his.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings

So, my ears do prick up whenever I hear a guy going on and on about the unfairness of rejection.

It doesn’t matter if “most” men handle rejection just fine if you are dealing with a guy with that or even a much milder case of entitlement. Hence, it’s not unnatural for a woman to handle a guy very gingerly when turning him down, not knowing how volatile or entitled he is or when they’re going to snap. The gym shooter and Elliot Rodger weren’t dangerous people–right up until they were.

 

[Xantippe]

Also, when explaining when women are afraid of something, it’s not necessary to go beyond “anecdotal.” People don’t need to run full-on double blind scientific studies before declaring themselves afraid of something.

Even just one experience of a man dealing badly with rejection could lead to women being very cautious about the dangers of being clear and upfront when rejecting.

Plus, there’s the question of intra-gender social norms. Do women, when speaking to each other, use the sort of ultra blunt, forthright style you prefer? Not really. Imagine the following conversation:

Woman 1: Hey, I’m doing a Pampered Chef/Mary Kay/essential oils/whatever party Saturday night. Can you come and bring a friend? It will be fun!

Woman 2: Oh, that sounds like so much fun! But I don’t think I can make it!

Does Woman 2 actually want to come to the “party” and spend money on overpriced junkf? There’s a 90% chance that the answer is no. She’s just letting her friend down easy and preserving the relationship the best she can. That’s the normal female style. And actually, it’s not uncommon for men to also be vague and evasive when turning down unwanted invitations. It’s only within the sphere of dating that anybody has expectations of 100% frankness in rejecting invitations.

 

[pensmama87]

Woman 1: Hey, I’m doing a Pampered Chef/Mary Kay/essential oils/whatever party Saturday night. Can you come and bring a friend? It will be fun!

Woman 2: Oh, that sounds like so much fun! But I don’t think I can make it!

Does Woman 2 actually want to come to the “party” and spend money on overpriced junkf? There’s a 90% chance that the answer is no. She’s just letting her friend down easy and preserving the relationship the best she can. That’s the normal female style. And actually, it’s not uncommon for men to also be vague and evasive when turning down unwanted invitations. It’s only within the sphere of dating that anybody has expectations of 100% frankness in rejecting invitations.

Oh my goodness, yes.

Of course, the prevailing sales “tactic” companies like that teach to “consultants” is to be so ridiculously pushy and awful that a person finally breaks down and buys something. Also “warm chatting” - known as annoying strangers just trying to go about their daily lives. Then after a person finally agrees to a literal pity party, they get hounded up until the day of to make sure that people come, and then the friend has to sit and watch in embarassment as the consultant (if she’s on script) increasingly gets more desperate in pleas to buy overpriced product (though sometimes they are good.) And what you get for your trouble is being on their mailing list forever.

I’ve had some bad experiences with these companies. Now that I think about it, it seems their tactics are lifted straight out of the “how to get nobody to ever want to date you” handbook, adapted to sell pointless stuff. But in the mind of those companies, of course, the consultant is the end consumer, not the customers of the consultant.

End rant…

 

[Xantippe]

Oh my goodness, yes.

Of course, the prevailing sales “tactic” companies like that teach to “consultants” is to be so ridiculously pushy and awful that a person finally breaks down and buys something. Also “warm chatting” - known as annoying strangers just trying to go about their daily lives. Then after a person finally agrees to a literal pity party, they get hounded up until the day of to make sure that people come, and then the friend has to sit and watch in embarassment as the consultant (if she’s on script) increasingly gets more desperate in pleas to buy overpriced product (though sometimes they are good.) And what you get for your trouble is being on their mailing list forever.

I’ve had some bad experiences with these companies. Now that I think about it, it seems their tactics are lifted straight out of the “how to get nobody to ever want to date you” handbook, adapted to sell pointless stuff. But in the mind of those companies, of course, the consultant is the end consumer, not the customers of the consultant.

End rant…

Yeah.

I think what men that are focused on dating issues don’t get is that women have to turn other women down for social or business stuff all the time, and the refusals look very, very similar. Plus, we have to be on the receiving end of social refusals all the time and we have to weigh the question, am I being turned down because the person is busy right now or because they don’t like me or my kids or think my kids and I are boring? Is it worthwhile asking again later?

I think it may be helpful and more wholesome to think of dating as a subset of general social behavior, rather than a uniquely horrible thing that women inflict on men.

 

[DarkLight]

Also, if “chivalrous” means being show-offy about minor displays of politeness (example: making a big production out of holding a door for somebody), it’s understandable why that doesn’t go over well.

There are a lot of cases where “chivalry” could look a lot like plain, old-fashioned garden-variety rudeness and boorishness.

It’s also worth pointing out that such gestures rarely work if they’re only displayed when a guy is interested in a girl. I’ve seen plenty of men who are exceedingly chivalrous towards a girl they’re interested in, but it drops the minute they’re dealing with a woman they’re not attracted to.

Allow me to be more specific here since this is going all over the place…

Gratitude
GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Thank you for asking, but I do not see you and me in that way.
GUY: Oh well, thanks anyway…

Ingratitude
GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Well, I’m really busy with work and family and don’t have time to date right now.
GUY: Ok…: I’ll try again in a few months when things quiet down for her)
GAL (to herself): Glad he understood I’m not interested! Yay me!

In my experience the guys who keep trying again will keep trying again anyways, to see if they can get you to change your mind.

GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Thank you for asking, but I do not see you and me in that way.
GUY: Aww come on, it’s just one date!
GAL: No thanks.
GUY: How come you won’t even give me a chance? You think you’re too good for me?

That’s actually often the advantage of being too busy - in my experience it has a better success rate. It’s not uncommon for men to take “not interested” as a pretext to try to hang around the girl in the hopes that if they prove what a nice guy they are she’ll eventually be interested. Which is, honestly, ok in theory, but often it tends towards the guy becoming clingy and making a pest of himself.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s also worth pointing out that such gestures rarely work if they’re only displayed when a guy is interested in a girl. I’ve seen plenty of men who are exceedingly chivalrous towards a girl they’re interested in, but it drops the minute they’re dealing with a woman they’re not attracted to.

There’s also the issue that “special” courtship niceties often vanish post-marriage, so it’s actually much more informative to watch how a girlfriend or boyfriend treats others than how he or she treats you. You may be getting special treatment that is going to disappear as soon as the relationship is formalized or kids appear, or whatever.

I don’t think that it’s necessarily a major black mark if courtship behavior is distinct from married behavior (as once children appear, there’s a lot more work and a lot of frills have to be discontinued), but it is a transition that everybody needs to be prepared for.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but many women have a hard time telling men pursuing them, in black and white, that they are not interested.

Is it because women are so full of themselves that they think the man is going to be destroyed if she tells him this?

Why do women think it’s okay to string men along or drop hints about their lack of interest that men are just supposed to “get it” without her saying anything simple and clear?

Discuss

I have the opposite problem, no women are interested in me

 

[flyonthewall86]

It’s not just one event–this has happened over and over that men have turned murderously violent over sexual rejection, real or imagined.

"In the note found at the scene in Sodini’s gym bag, he complains he had never spent a weekend with a woman, never vacationed with a woman and never lived with a woman, and that he had had limited sexual experiences, Moffatt said.

“He makes similar complaints in his online blog, which also documents his growing rage at women for rejecting him and at the world he felt had abandoned him.”

cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/05/pennsylvania.gym.shooting/

More recently, of course, we had Elliot Rodger, the Santa Barbara shooter.

“Before driving to the sorority house, Rodger uploaded a video to YouTube, titled “Elliot Rodger’s Retribution”, in which he outlined details of his upcoming attack and the motivations behind his killing spree, which he described as a desire to punish women for rejecting him and also a desire to punish sexually active men for living a better life than his.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings

So, my ears do prick up whenever I hear a guy going on and on about the unfairness of rejection.

It doesn’t matter if “most” men handle rejection just fine if you are dealing with a guy with that or even a much milder case of entitlement. Hence, it’s not unnatural for a woman to handle a guy very gingerly when turning him down, not knowing how volatile or entitled he is or when they’re going to snap. The gym shooter and Elliot Rodger weren’t dangerous people–right up until they were.

So the divorce rate is for first time marriages is about 40% and women initiate about 70% of the divorces. When divorce happens women usually get the kids and the house. According to the logic presented above, men should be VERY afraid of marrying a woman. Tell me, should men be afraid of women for this reason? Divorce is rejection too after all.

There has also been news articles recently where women kill their children (usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/12/utah-mom-guilty-killing-6-newborns/23326401/). Should we be afraid of letting women have access to children because 1 or a handful kill their kids? No!

As I said before, some fear is irrational and leads to irrational witch hunts. You cited 2 examples of things gone sour where I cited a study of 1000’s where there was no blowback for rejection. Are we going to dismiss the 1000 for the 2? If the odds of winning lotto were 99.8% would you not play? To make a rule out of a slim minority is to be quite honest not very charitable. It is like looking for an excuse to justify treating the other party like a criminal.

Also to equate a guy wanting to be treated like a human being when being rejected to a mass murderer is sick. As the study I posted showed, most guys haven’t got a problem with rejection. We have a problem with women not being direct about it as I encountered in my example. I didn’t have a problem with that “friend” of mine saying no. I did have a problem with her leaving the door open. I didn’t go on a murdering spree as a result. I would have appreciated if she just flat out said no. At least the friendship might have endured then for the sake of honesty.

Also, if women stepped up and started doing the asking they wouldn’t have to worry about men’s “volatility.” I’m presenting a solution to the problem you stated, but it seems the status quo is more preferable. A lot of sense that makes! It is like a catch-22 and that is what guys don’t appreciate!

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

It’s also worth pointing out that such gestures rarely work if they’re only displayed when a guy is interested in a girl. I’ve seen plenty of men who are exceedingly chivalrous towards a girl they’re interested in, but it drops the minute they’re dealing with a woman they’re not attracted to.

I don’t recommend exceedingly chivalrous at all, that’s often seen as trying too hard. And fake when you’re seen dropping it for women who don’t interest you. Instead, dial the chivalry back, keep it at a lower level, more along the lines of common courtesy, then be that way with all women regardless of interest.

It’s not uncommon for men to take “not interested” as a pretext to try to hang around the girl in the hopes that if they prove what a nice guy they are she’ll eventually be interested. Which is, honestly, ok in theory, but often it tends towards the guy becoming clingy and making a pest of himself.

It’s not okay at all. Clingy nice guys end up as orbiters at best and can often be considered pests at worst. A man is much better off trying no more than twice with a woman before moving on. It’s rare for a woman to change her mind after he’s moved on, if she does, it’s up to her to let him know. Because a woman’s change of mind is so rare, a man shouldn’t waste any more time on her after two rejections.

There’s also the issue that “special” courtship niceties often vanish post-marriage, so it’s actually much more informative to watch how a girlfriend or boyfriend treats others than how he or she treats you. You may be getting special treatment that is going to disappear as soon as the relationship is formalized or kids appear, or whatever.

I don’t think that it’s necessarily a major black mark if courtship behavior is distinct from married behavior (as once children appear, there’s a lot more work and a lot of frills have to be discontinued), but it is a transition that everybody needs to be prepared for.

One thing I learned from my parents: common courtesy between a husband and a wife is far more important than common courtesy among strangers. Also I now watch a woman’s treatment of the help very closely and will not hesitate to end it for poor conduct there. I’ve been the help, I know what that feels like so I’m good with them and I demand that of anyone close to me. One would be surprised how many women I dated who flunked that test. I think thank goodness I saw her true colors…

I have the opposite problem, no women are interested in me

You can’t change how women feel, you can only change yourself. At some level, you will have to learn how to elicit that interest from women, cannot go around passively like a certain poster on this thread and expect them to fall into your lap. Life ain’t fair that way, you have to do the work on yourself. But by doing the work on yourself, you give the Lord an opportunity to put someone in your path.

If you’re shy, I can definitely recommend social partner dance classes: that is an excellent place to learn how to interact with women. If you don’t like dancing, go to meetup.com and find a mixed group in your area that does something you are interested in. Like hiking, attending concerts, whatever.