Why can't women simply say "I'm not interested." to men?

[AnneElizabeth]

… I did have a problem with her leaving the door open. … I would have appreciated if she just flat out said no…

I find this curious because I always hear about men not calling women back after dating for so long or disappearing in the middle of a relationship- I use the term 'relationship used lightly because of the varying degrees of such. They don’t give the gal the common courtesy of closure. Here, its the guy begging for something similar to closure only its at the start of a possible relationship.

I’d have to conclude that both sexes have their moments when they are not so courteous to each other. I’d also have to conclude, its pretty darn common.

 

[Sarcelle]

I don’t recommend exceedingly chivalrous at all, that’s often seen as trying too hard. And fake when you’re seen dropping it for women who don’t interest you. Instead, dial the chivalry back, keep it at a lower level, more along the lines of common courtesy, then be that way with all women regardless of interest.

It’s not okay at all. Clingy nice guys end up as orbiters at best and can often be considered pests at worst. A man is much better off trying no more than twice with a woman before moving on. It’s rare for a woman to change her mind after he’s moved on, if she does, it’s up to her to let him know. Because a woman’s change of mind is so rare, a man shouldn’t waste any more time on her after two rejections.

One thing I learned from my parents: common courtesy between a husband and a wife is far more important than common courtesy among strangers. Also I now watch a woman’s treatment of the help very closely and will not hesitate to end it for poor conduct there. I’ve been the help, I know what that feels like so I’m good with them and I demand that of anyone close to me. One would be surprised how many women I dated who flunked that test. I think thank goodness I saw her true colors…

You can’t change how women feel, you can only change yourself. At some level, you will have to learn how to elicit that interest from women, cannot go around passively like a certain poster on this thread and expect them to fall into your lap. Life ain’t fair that way, you have to do the work on yourself. But by doing the work on yourself, you give the Lord an opportunity to put someone in your path.

If you’re shy, I can definitely recommend social partner dance classes: that is an excellent place to learn how to interact with women. If you don’t like dancing, go to meetup.com and find a mixed group in your area that does something you are interested in. Like hiking, attending concerts, whatever.

Your parents taught you well.

One good rule of thumb, which is for both men and women, is that while on a date, keep a close eye on how your date treats people who work in the service industry, waiters, retail workers. How they treat others who are in a position to serve is how they will treat you.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t recommend exceedingly chivalrous at all, that’s often seen as trying too hard. And fake when you’re seen dropping it for women who don’t interest you. Instead, dial the chivalry back, keep it at a lower level, more along the lines of common courtesy, then be that way with all women regardless of interest.

Right. That way you’re demonstrating that you are a considerate person in general, rather than that you are making a special, heroic effort to impress them (that you will drop the moment you can get away with it).

Also I now watch a woman’s treatment of the help very closely and will not hesitate to end it for poor conduct there. I’ve been the help, I know what that feels like so I’m good with them and I demand that of anyone close to me. One would be surprised how many women I dated who flunked that test. I think thank goodness I saw her true colors…

**The funny thing is, I see that advice (to be polite to service people in front of a date) all the time, and yet it seems to be one of the most violated rules, even though it’s really not that hard for a normal person. (Not to mention that not annoying people who handle your food is just basic good sense.)
**

 

[Xantippe]

So the divorce rate is for first time marriages is about 40% and women initiate about 70% of the divorces. When divorce happens women usually get the kids and the house. According to the logic presented above, men should be VERY afraid of marrying a woman. Tell me, should men be afraid of women for this reason? Divorce is rejection too after all.

**Men should be afraid of divorce. They should be well-informed about the demographics of divorce (for instance that it is more common for the young, the poor, the non-college educated and non-Catholics) and proceed accordingly.

Men should also be way more afraid of creating children out of wedlock than they are. (Currently nearly half of firstborn children are born outside of marriage in the US.)

(The “get the house” is very misleading, by the way, as most of the time, the equity from the house is split between the divorcing spouses, along with other marital assets. Hence, “getting the house,” doesn’t mean keeping all of the equity. I listen to a lot of Dave Ramsey, the personal finance guy, and he is always counseling divorced mothers to get rid of the house, which tends to be an albatross when one has a new, larger mortgage from paying off the other spouse and at best only half the previous family income.) **

**Also, they should educate themselves about relationships and marriage and cultivate loving and respectful relationships with their wives and children. A good place to start would be John Gottman’s books on marriage and relationships.

It’s also a good idea to examine each others views on stuff like money, kids, religion, in-laws, and where each wants to live long-term, well before getting married. I often recommend that engaged couples attend a personal finance class together. They should have a solid financial plan before getting married and each be doing budgets.
**

There has also been news articles recently where women kill their children (usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/12/utah-mom-guilty-killing-6-newborns/23326401/). Should we be afraid of letting women have access to children because 1 or a handful kill their kids? No!

**Actually, we should think a lot harder about giving mothers support and not pooh poohing them when they say that they are struggling or overwhelmed.

There is a societal belief that women automatically are good at being mothers and can be good mothers without any support or help, and that’s a terribly mistaken view. Because of hormonal issues and the effects of prolonged sleep deprivation and isolation, the postpartum period can be a very dangerous time for new mothers and their babies.

nytimes.com/2013/03/15/nyregion/son-survives-cynthia-wachenheims-suicide-jump-in-harlem.html?pagewanted=all**

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

I have a friend who at one point (because of postpartum hormonal stuff) was thinking about carving her kids’ names in her arms with a kitchen knife. She is normally a lovely and very sensible person and the best mother you can imagine, but her hormonal stuff was making her CRAZY. And her husband would not take the situation seriously–he seriously thought that she should just pull herself up by her bootstraps and make herself not crazy. Fortunately, my friend had a lot of help from friends and came through all right, but it could have been a tragedy for a family with less support.

People who are close to new mothers (husbands, family and friends) need to be very watchful and supportive in order to prevent tragedies.

I’ll cut this off here and continue later, as it was getting long.

 

[Xantippe]

Forgive the HTML fail–flyonthewall is in normal type and I’ve put myself in bold.

As I said before, some fear is irrational and leads to irrational witch hunts.

**It’s not a witch hunt to say, “I’m busy that night.”

Who gets hurt by that? What is so wrong about saying that? That’s how people normally respond to unappetizing social invitations. And it has the merit of being true. They’re going to be busy doing something else that they enjoy more–bleaching some mildew around a kitchen sink, getting in some quality web surfing, catching up on Parks and Rec alone, catching up on email, sorting mail, paying bills, spending quality time with their cats, doing a little laundry, calling their grandma, etc.
**

You cited 2 examples of things gone sour where I cited a study of 1000’s where there was no blowback for rejection. Are we going to dismiss the 1000 for the 2? If the odds of winning lotto were 99.8% would you not play? To make a rule out of a slim minority is to be quite honest not very charitable. It is like looking for an excuse to justify treating the other party like a criminal.

**It’s not treating someone you don’t know well like a criminal to be friendly and civil but not overly informative.

Everyone doesn’t need to know everything about everybody.
**

Also to equate a guy wanting to be treated like a human being when being rejected to a mass murderer is sick.

**You seem to be making up your own rules of dating etiquette on the fly.

When women say, “I’m busy that night,” that is treating a guy “like a human being.” Not treating him like a human being would be belittling him, shaming him, exposing him to public ridicule or running through a list of his shortcomings.

It is perfectly respectful to offer a non-informative refusal to a social invitation.
**

As the study I posted showed, most guys haven’t got a problem with rejection. We have a problem with women not being direct about it as I encountered in my example.

I didn’t have a problem with that “friend” of mine saying no. I did have a problem with her leaving the door open. I didn’t go on a murdering spree as a result. I would have appreciated if she just flat out said no. At least the friendship might have endured then for the sake of honesty.
**
She was direct, wasn’t she? That’s what you didn’t like. She told you exactly where you stood on her priority list. **

Also, if women stepped up and started doing the asking they wouldn’t have to worry about men’s “volatility.” I’m presenting a solution to the problem you stated, but it seems the status quo is more preferable. A lot of sense that makes! It is like a catch-22 and that is what guys don’t appreciate!

**Look, you can want women to do more initiating, but that is going to require a less traditional, much more gender-blind society than we have today in the US. You can’t get egalitarian dating without a much less traditional, much more gender-blind society.

Is that really, honestly, what you want?

As I’ve said, I was personally rather assertive in my courtship with my future husband, and I would encourage a woman that was not doing well with traditional dating to be more assertive, but I understand why women aren’t assertive. It just feels WRONG to pursue.
**

 

[flyonthewall86]

I’ll cut this off here and continue later, as it was getting long.

I think I’m done with this thread. It seems apparent from the posts above that its OK for women to make uncharitable assumptions about men, but the reverse is not tolerated. Entitled is the only way to describe the attitude that men should bear all the responsibility for initiating a romantic relationship and deserve to be lambasted for not being able to reads minds when the answer is ambiguous. Men are human beings and when they are treated like rabid animals don’t be surprised if a few like the ones you cited start acting like such…

Jesus made people whole not by shining a light on their sin. He made people whole by shining a light on their God-given humanity!

Peace.

 

[on_the_hill]

Well, I didn’t really understand what women have to deal with until I was in my mid-20s. I moved to a new city, made new friends, had new places to explore.

There is a large (per capita) gay population there, and most of the bars in the downtown area are “mixed,” meaning that gay and straight people mingle regularly. It was a new experience for me.

I was hit on, propositioned, chatted up, whatever you want to call it a number of times. And I learned this: guys don’t take no for an answer. And it occurred to me that if I, at 6’2" and 195 pounds feel uncomfortable when a smaller guy pesters me, I can imagine what it’s like for a woman on a daily basis.

I am a boss where I work. There are a couple notably attractive young women on my staff. When I out with them walking to meetings, etc. I see how random guys look at them. One of them recently received inappropriate emails from a guy in a different department. Creepy stuff.
So if a woman is less than obvious, she may a) be a lot more obvious than a guy realizes, or 2) she may actually be intimidated by him.

 

[Xantippe]

I think I’m done with this thread. It seems apparent from the posts above that its OK for women to make uncharitable assumptions about men, but the reverse is not tolerated.

It’s always a good idea to be cautious about people we don’t know very well or haven’t known very long.

Entitled is the only way to describe the attitude that men should bear all the responsibility for initiating a romantic relationship and deserve to be lambasted for not being able to reads minds when the answer is ambiguous.

**As a number of people have mentioned, once you get two refusals from the same woman, it’s time to stop making overtures to her. At that point, if she is actually interested, the ball is in her court. That’s very simple and easy to remember. **

Men are human beings and when they are treated like rabid animals don’t be surprised if a few like the ones you cited start acting like such…

**It’s not being treated like a rabid animal to be told, “I don’t think I’m free that night.”

I get “busies” from other moms all the time when trying to set up social events for our kids, and I haven’t turned into a rabid animal yet.
**

Jesus made people whole not by shining a light on their sin. He made people whole by shining a light on their God-given humanity!

Peace.

 

[Kat127]

I think I’m done with this thread. It seems apparent from the posts above that its OK for women to make uncharitable assumptions about men, but the reverse is not tolerated. Entitled is the only way to describe the attitude that men should bear all the responsibility for initiating a romantic relationship and deserve to be lambasted for not being able to reads minds when the answer is ambiguous. Men are human beings and when they are treated like rabid animals don’t be surprised if a few like the ones you cited start acting like such…

Jesus made people whole not by shining a light on their sin. He made people whole by shining a light on their God-given humanity!

Peace.

Women are cautious because most of us have been in situations where things could have gone south very fast. The only thing that stopped it from going south is the fact the guy was a good guy. But that’s it, if the guy hadn’t been a good guy it would have been a different story. Do you understand how scary that is? To realize your safety and even your life hangs on the balance of someone else’s goodwill.

You seem to think we are being uncharitable because we are cautious. You do understand much of the violence against women happens because there is an opportunity for it to happen. Those with ill-intentions take advantage of a woman’s desire to be a people-pleaser and be nice. That’s why women are given ground rules- never go to a different location with a guy you just met, stay close to your friends and know where your friends are, always check your backseat before you get in the car, etc.

Honestly, I’ve never met a man in real life that didn’t understand this and generally agree that women should be cautious. Rolling your eyes and belittling our concern for safety by saying “99.99999% of the time you’ll be perfectly safe” is not a way to endear yourself to the female population. You say that to a woman she’s going to think you are a four letter word.

Threatening to turn into a rabid animal because you think you are being treated like one…again, not going to endear you to anyone. It is emotionally manipulative and it carries a real threat. No woman is going to be interested in a guy who even jokes about turning into a monster, she’s going to run for the hills.

But I think you are very mistaken if you think men do all the work to start a relationship. Women do chase, we just chase in a very different way.

Here’s my brutally honest opinion as to why women don’t ask guys out. Because guys generally hate it. Guys want to be the ones that “catch” the girl even if we are leaving you breadcrumbs straight to our door. So we don’t ask, we flirt.

(Yes, I know there are perfectly wonderful love stories and marriages where the woman was the one who asked first. But in my experience and observation men generally prefer to be the ones who ask.)

 

[Xantippe]

Women are cautious because most of us have been in situations where things could have gone south very fast. The only thing that stopped it from going south is the fact the guy was a good guy. But that’s it, if the guy hadn’t been a good guy it would have been a different story. Do you understand how scary that is? To realize your safety and even your life hangs on the balance of someone else’s goodwill.

Yes.

You seem to think we are being uncharitable because we are cautious. You do understand much of the violence against women happens because there is an opportunity for it to happen. Those with ill-intentions take advantage of a woman’s desire to be a people-pleaser and be nice. That’s why women are given ground rules- never go to a different location with a guy you just met, stay close to your friends and know where your friends are, always check your backseat before you get in the car, etc.

**Yes. And when women don’t do all that stuff and something bad happens, people wonder, “Why didn’t she do XYZ?” Why did she accept a ride from a guy she didn’t really know well? Why did she drink without taking a buddy? Why did she go to a man’s apartment if she wasn’t intending to have sex with him? Etc., etc. **

Honestly, I’ve never met a man in real life that didn’t understand this and generally agree that women should be cautious. Rolling your eyes and belittling our concern for safety by saying “99.99999% of the time you’ll be perfectly safe” is not a way to endear yourself to the female population. You say that to a woman she’s going to think you are a four letter word.

Nah. “Creep” is five letters.

 

[ack]

Entitled is the only way to describe the attitude that men should bear all the responsibility for initiating a romantic relationship and deserve to be lambasted for not being able to reads minds when the answer is ambiguous.

**As a number of people have mentioned, once you get two refusals from the same woman, it’s time to stop making overtures to her. At that point, if she is actually interested, the ball is in her court. That’s very simple and easy to remember. **

I’m not sure if your “you” was intended to advise flyonthewall86…but as he mentioned in a previous post, he is married (which makes me wonder why still he’s so adamant about this particular topic):

I’m not a mind reader and didn’t have time for games. When I met my wife I saw lots of qualities I found attractive.

Something inside me is wondering what would happen if his wife created an account and gave her take on this thread.

 

[AnnArbor]

I’m not sure if your “you” was intended to advise flyonthewall86…but as he mentioned in a previous post, he is married (which makes me wonder why still he’s so adamant about this particular topic):

Something inside me is wondering what would happen if his wife created an account and gave her take on this thread.

I would be interested to see what his advice would be to a daughter in 20 years.

 

[flyonthewall86]

Women are cautious because most of us have been in situations where things could have gone south very fast. The only thing that stopped it from going south is the fact the guy was a good guy. But that’s it, if the guy hadn’t been a good guy it would have been a different story. Do you understand how scary that is? To realize your safety and even your life hangs on the balance of someone else’s goodwill.

And the same could be said for women. There’s nothing preventing a man from the financial disaster of divorce or the kids the emotional damage except a woman’s goodwill. Likewise in many states a woman could cheat and her husband be forced to support the child of her affair. Should all guys run around in fear of that?

You seem to think we are being uncharitable because we are cautious.
…

There’s a difference between being cautious and assuming the worst about a particular group of people. If you are on an airplane with a Muslim person do you assume they are there for nefarious purposes?

Threatening to turn into a rabid animal because you think you are being treated like one…again, not going to endear you to anyone.
…

I wasn’t being threatening, but people have psychological limits. Some people crack when they feel dumped on. If a man was abusing his wife and she hauls off and splits his head open with a frying pan can you blame her? Well, same goes with a society that uses men for cannon fodder in wars, financial capital, and the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong.

Here’s my brutally honest opinion as to why women don’t ask guys out. Because guys generally hate it. Guys want to be the ones that “catch” the girl even if we are leaving you breadcrumbs straight to our door. So we don’t ask, we flirt.

Given women don’t ask guys out, how do you know? This is pure conjecture and I can tell you from first hand experience that, for once in their life, a guy who gets asked might actually feel appreciated.

I’m not sure if your “you” was intended to advise flyonthewall86…but as he mentioned in a previous post, he is married (which makes me wonder why still he’s so adamant about this particular topic):

Maybe because I don’t just think about myself and care about what future generations of men will have to deal with.

…

There is a large (per capita) gay population there, and most of the bars in the downtown area are “mixed,” meaning that gay and straight people mingle regularly. It was a new experience for me.

I was hit on, propositioned, chatted up, whatever you want to call it a number of times. And I learned this: guys don’t take no for an answer. And it occurred to me that if I, at 6’2" and 195 pounds feel uncomfortable when a smaller guy pesters me, I can imagine what it’s like for a woman on a daily basis.

False equivalent. If you are a straight guy, getting hit on by another guy it is going to trigger feelings of disgust from start. Let’s face it, the picture we have of male homosexuality is a lot worse than even the most unattractive woman. Also, extrapolating what happened to you once to what happens to women “every day” is a leap of logic.

It’s not being treated like a rabid animal to be told, “I don’t think I’m free that night.”

I get “busies” from other moms all the time when trying to set up social events for our kids, and I haven’t turned into a rabid animal yet.

This thread has gotten so convoluted it isn’t even funny anymore. When the moms tell you they are “busy” they most likely aren’t thinking of protecting themselves because you want to take advantage of them or make a move on them! That is the difference between you dealing with other moms and women dealing with men. HUGE difference in circumstances!

Let’s try to make this simple. If a woman is not interested in a man as a potential mate, all I expect her to say is “I have no interest in pursuing a relationship with you at all.” She doesn’t have to give a reason. If she doesn’t like his nose that’s fine…I don’t expect her to say that.

Someone made a good point above. Do you like it when guys don’t call girls back and stop answer text messages because they aren’t interested? My wife’s female friends go ape when guys don’t return their efforts to communicate and I agree with them! It’s not right to leave someone putting themselves out there with a less than honest answer. It’s called respect and clearly some here think only one gender is entitled to it.

Who was it that said “love thy neighbors as thy self?” Just wondering if will still remember what we are supposed to believe as Christians…

I would be interested to see what his advice would be to a daughter in 20 years.

My advice to her would be “if you want to be respected then you need to respect other people to.” Again, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I’d also tell her not to sit around waiting for a guy to fall out of the sky. I wouldn’t expect her to sit on her feelings waiting for his ESP to kick in. I’d caution both that there are ill-willed people out there (men AND women) so they should “trust but verify” as Ronald Reagan once said. Walking around suspicious of everyone will do little more than turn one into a paranoid being afraid of life. Life is full of risks and that’s just how it is. My advice to my sons would be no different.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

… so they should “trust but verify” as Ronald Reagan once said. …

Not everyone has the ability to do that. Especially if one was not taught how. If it were, then no one would ever get hurt by a person intending to do harm. How do you verify someone is just out to rape/kill you? Do you think they advertise that or something?

 

[Xantippe]

And the same could be said for women. There’s nothing preventing a man from the financial disaster of divorce or the kids the emotional damage except a woman’s goodwill. Likewise in many states a woman could cheat and her husband be forced to support the child of her affair. Should all guys run around in fear of that?

**1. Divorced women are broke, too, and single mothers are, as a rule, poor–the financial risks of failed relationships are equal opportunity in that case. (And, as a matter of fact, the risks fall more heavily on whoever has custody of the children. It is much harder to be poor with children than without children.) In general, the demands of childbearing and childrearing are catastrophic for women’s earning potential.

1. As I posted earlier, men are quite right to be concerned about making a good marriage, as it will make the difference in having a happy or an unhappy life. I gave a long list of items that men should pay attention to when marrying and afterward to make sure that that happens. I would encourage men to be careful, both about not producing children out of wedlock, and with regard to dating and marriage.
   **
   **3. However, note that the risks that you are concerned about mostly kick in for men after marriage, whereas the risks that we have been discussing for women (stalking, creepy obsessive behavior, threats, sexual assault, rape and other violence) are things that can happen with barely any relationship at all and occasionally literally no relationship at all. (See John Hinckley and Jodie Foster.) Hence, women’s fear of dangerous male behavior kicks in (quite naturally) way earlier in an acquaintance than men’s anxiety about women’s trustworthiness.
2. Note also that the physical risks that men pose to women have very little analog in the other direction. Hence, men do not, as a rule, have the purely physical fear of men that is just basic self-preservation for a sensible woman.**

**5. Some women may have personally experienced one or more of the array of options I listed in my #3. Those women will often be particularly cautious. They also may not be very interested in explaining to every casual acquaintance why they are particularly cautious.

1. As I always say on CAF, trustworthy people rarely ask us to trust them. It’s a tell that somebody is up to no good if they go around asking people to trust them. Trustworthy people almost never say, “Trust me.” Trustworthy people establish a long pattern of trustworthy behavior and are automatically trusted (without asking for it) because they are trustworthy. **

There’s a difference between being cautious and assuming the worst about a particular group of people. If you are on an airplane with a Muslim person do you assume they are there for nefarious purposes?
**
Let’s tweak the analogy a little. Let’s say a person of Middle Eastern appearance (or actually any other appearance) tapped you on the shoulder at check-in and asked you to carry a bag for them on the plane and not mention it to the security check-in.

Would you carry the bag? **

Given women don’t ask guys out, how do you know? This is pure conjecture and I can tell you from first hand experience that, for once in their life, a guy who gets asked might actually feel appreciated.

**I was just reading the following thread from a secular (I think) woman that used to ask men out, but was finding it generating worse results than traditional dating:

nerdlounge.forumotion.ca/t453-why-is-women-not-approaching-so-controversial**

She found that (among other things) it generated a lot of relationships where she was being expected to do everything in the relationship, make all the plans, initiate everything, and where the guy wasn’t even that interested in her.

I’ve seen similar remarks elsewhere from secular women who found that the results of initiating were poor.

Obviously, that’s not universal and some women do very well with initiating, but as they say, begin as you mean to go on.

This thread has gotten so convoluted it isn’t even funny anymore. When the moms tell you they are “busy” they most likely aren’t thinking of protecting themselves because you want to take advantage of them or make a move on them! That is the difference between you dealing with other moms and women dealing with men. HUGE difference in circumstances!

**No, it really is the same thing. I always feel the analogy when men talk about how hard dating is, as I have very similar issues when looking for friends for myself or my kids.

When we’re in the social sphere making invitations (whether playdates, family get togethers, or romantic overtures), we are in basically the same social zone of ambiguity and hope. We make invitations, we get yeses or nos, and sometimes we don’t know if people like us or not. (We live in the US South, and people are nice, even when they really don’t like you at all.)**

Let’s try to make this simple. If a woman is not interested in a man as a potential mate, all I expect her to say is “I have no interest in pursuing a relationship with you at all.” She doesn’t have to give a reason. If she doesn’t like his nose that’s fine…I don’t expect her to say that.

**Did you ask her, “Are you interested in a relationship with me?” If not, you have no reason to expect to get an answer to the question you didn’t ask. **

More in a bit–I hit the text limit.

 

[Xantippe]

**Continued…

I’ve put flyonthewall in plain font and myself in bold.**

Someone made a good point above. Do you like it when guys don’t call girls back and stop answer text messages because they aren’t interested? My wife’s female friends go ape when guys don’t return their efforts to communicate and I agree with them! It’s not right to leave someone putting themselves out there with a less than honest answer. It’s called respect and clearly some here think only one gender is entitled to it.

**Early on in a relationship (like before the one month mark has appeared), I think that’s quite OK. One signals disinterest by spacing out communications and by not communicating. (And you’re quite right that men do that as much as women.)

However, I agree that once a relationship has reached a certain level of formality, that’s a cruddy thing to do. At some point, one owes a girlfriend or boyfriend an actual breakup.**

Who was it that said “love thy neighbors as thy self?” Just wondering if will still remember what we are supposed to believe as Christians…

**Not everybody is you and you don’t get to dictate etiquette to the whole country based on your personal preferences.

A lot of people prefer soft nos (I notice this a lot in the South). I am blunter, but even I prefer, for instance, not to be told that another mom doesn’t want her kids to be friends with my kids.
**

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…

There’s a difference between being cautious and assuming the worst about a particular group of people. If you are on an airplane with a Muslim person do you assume they are there for nefarious purposes?

…

Actually, yes. Just because that is the way things are right now. And in saying that, I do mean to say that I HATE doing that to a person, but I must. I did that once on a plane. IN fact, looking around I saw that I was not the only person nervous about being on a flight with some Muslim men. I think we all knew not to treat them like they were guilty, but we all did have concerns and fears. This was just a year after 9/11. I don’t think our concerns were unfounded or anything to just poo poo, even though the odds were probably in our favor.

When a woman is attacked or raped, and people ask her why were you so friendly to that man before it happened if you felt he was creepy, then people accuse her of being stupid by not listening to her intuition.   When a woman feels creeped out by a guy's approach and then acts on her fear and leaves the situation, she is called stupid..  You can't have it both ways.

Later in your paragraph you say “trust but verify” , well verification means that you have some degree of suspicion, otherwise you would not be looking for verification…? Trust is earned. Its not immediate and never should be.

 

[chevalier]

I don’t think the girl is being ungracious - I think the guy is being dense.

No, and she’s white-lying at best.

For the record, it sometimes does mean what is said, which only sows confusion. Two examples:

1. ‘No time for social life,’ etc. My pals and I accidentally bumped into her out in the city with some other guy the very next day.
2. A different girl. She agreed initially but later called me to cancel out without specifying a different time, saying she had to go somewhere for two weeks or so (not even a ‘give me another call’). It certainly sounded like being let down in a diplomatic way. Whole years later I got my intel from her cousin, who was also my pal and at some point talked to her about the incident. Turned out she actually had been interested.

When he asks again a few months later, I’m sure he’ll work it out…hopfully.

It’s unfair to let him waste his time like that and suffer. It will also kick back by damaging his ability to trust women in the future.

 

[chevalier]

Time for some quotes, after all.

She found that (among other things) it generated a lot of relationships where she was being expected to do everything in the relationship, make all the plans, initiate everything, and where the guy wasn’t even that interested in her.

So man’s standard fare is cruel, isn’t it?

What I always say here is that two “I’m busies” equals a "not interested.

Actually, even a single one already means lack of great interest, especially when no alternative proposal is made when declining. The problem is nailing down the different between ‘not yet’ and ‘not possible’.

Back when I was more active in the game, I believe I gave it only one go when I didn’t hear an alternative proposal.

Also didn’t think highly of the decliner’s politeness or kindness, either, and those were very important factors.

I think in the world of dating, one “I’m busy” is usually sufficient. But sometimes it does mean merely that they are busy. Asking a second time resolves all doubt.

Nah, it doesn’t. You never get to get a beyond reasonable doubt unless you hear a confident direct answer.

It doesn’t matter if “most” men handle rejection just fine if you are dealing with a guy with that or even a much milder case of entitlement. Hence, it’s not unnatural for a woman to handle a guy very gingerly when turning him down, not knowing how volatile or entitled he is or when they’re going to snap. The gym shooter and Elliot Rodger weren’t dangerous people–right up until they were.

Still, a man doesn’t deserve to be treated like a rabid animal for simply failing to be attractive, eligible or convincing enough.

It’s mens rea, not a woman’s disgust, that makes a stalker or creep.

Even just one experience of a man dealing badly with rejection could lead to women being very cautious about the dangers of being clear and upfront when rejecting.

Unfortunately, I need to grant you that.

And actually, it’s not uncommon for men to also be vague and evasive when turning down unwanted invitations. It’s only within the sphere of dating that anybody has expectations of 100% frankness in rejecting invitations.

No, not really. I can be evasive, or even cite a less important reason while omitting a more important but more embarrassing one, and I don’t need to hear what exactly is wrong with my personality or looks or character. There’s a fine line between ‘no chemistry’ and ‘dead fish’.

Please note that a hefty portion of men’s traumas regarding rejection is comes precisely from excessive bluntness on women’s part. Not necessarily verbal. But men aren’t stupid blokes who can’t read non-verbal. (For example I probably read it better than most women myself.)

 

[chevalier]

Well, it can be viewed as weird or creepy or just plain pushy or a violation of personal space to offer to do things for people that they can perfectly well do themselves.

Yes, but it can also be viewed as weird or creepy or just plain pushy or a violation of something to jump to conclusions.

Though I’ll agree that trying to win a woman’s heart by acting like a butler, gopher or errand boy is pathetic and miserable.

But if she reacts the same way to what is simple good maners, then, well, it says something about her own manners. And it’s fair game for men to take that into consideration. (I do, actually.)

Oh, and since we’re already dissecting things: it’s a different thing if you offer to lend a helping hand to someone who is tired, busy, out of time or would be more exhausted or put in a greater danger than you by executing the same task or would have to commit more time, resources, whatever, or simply be more inconvenienced. Most of the old courtesies fit in one of these categories.

A woman who barks at a male companion for offering to carry her bag, for example, (as opposed to a simple ‘thank you but no’) is forgetting her manners, and that doesn’t really speak in her favour.

Also, if “chivalrous” means being show-offy about minor displays of politeness (example: making a big production out of holding a door for somebody), it’s understandable why that doesn’t go over well.

Yes, of courses. Creeps and peeves me to no end as well. (To a point of having to look away or walk out, so I guess I take it worse than most women do.)

It’s also bad to pile unreciprocated favors on a particular chosen person, because it can look like you are trying to put them in your debt to extort something out of them against their will at a later date.

Yeah. That’s also how ‘business’ is done in jails and on Arab bazaars. Except in Arab bazaars you’ll only look like a bad (unmannered) person if you accept a freebie from a pushy trader and don’t reciprocate by actually purchasing something (modern marketers in the West also use this strategy), while in prisons, well, there are a few ways one can pay back a debt, most of them very unpleasant.

Good manners is to do one or two nice things for somebody else, wait for them to reciprocate, and then continue. If it’s unreciprocated, that could be a signal from them to PLEASE stop.

Equally as well that they didn’t notice or think a big deal of it, or that they accept your old-fashioned style without adapting their own to match.

And some people just didn’t get etiquettal training, so they don’t know how to react. (Not like there is a single right way.)

There are a lot of cases where “chivalry” could look a lot like plain, old-fashioned garden-variety rudeness and boorishness.

It often does. Probably everyone who tries to be ‘chivalrous’ looks that way to someone who is more proficient in etiquette.

It’s also worth pointing out that such gestures rarely work if they’re only displayed when a guy is interested in a girl. I’ve seen plenty of men who are exceedingly chivalrous towards a girl they’re interested in, but it drops the minute they’re dealing with a woman they’re not attracted to.

And some women don’t like the sight of their man’s showing courtesy to other women. (Which means they don’t understand courtesy.)

In my experience the guys who keep trying again will keep trying again anyways, to see if they can get you to change your mind.

GUY: Hey would you like to go out on a date with me?
GAL: Thank you for asking, but I do not see you and me in that way.
GUY: Aww come on, it’s just one date!
GAL: No thanks.
GUY: How come you won’t even give me a chance? You think you’re too good for me?

That’s actually often the advantage of being too busy - in my experience it has a better success rate.

It can backfire when the truth comes out. Few things hurt more than being lied to. And when the guy being rejected is holding on to some previous displays of interest on the woman’s part or semblance of a relationship, being lied to in the course of rejection feels similar to being cheated on or realizing that she was leading you on. This leads to some serious emotional confusion when there have been mixed signals and going back and forth.

It’s not uncommon for men to take “not interested” as a pretext to try to hang around the girl in the hopes that if they prove what a nice guy they are she’ll eventually be interested. Which is, honestly, ok in theory, but often it tends towards the guy becoming clingy and making a pest of himself.

It’s not uncommon for women to be eventually claimed by an ‘orbiter’ with enough longevity. Or so called ‘friend’.

There’s also the issue that “special” courtship niceties often vanish post-marriage,

On both sides.

I have the opposite problem, no women are interested in me

You still have time. Get a job, a hobby, find your true calling, make a presence. A woman will typically find herself at some point along the way.