Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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This question is probably better answered by Catholics because I’m looking for the Catholic point of view. Why do we Catholics consider the Roman church to be the true church of Jesus Christ when Christianity first spread to predominately Greek-speaking parts of the East before it ever reached Rome? Doubtless Sts. Peter and Paul did go to Rome and spread the message of Christ, but what is making us say that the East split from the West and not the other way around? I’m a bit confused–it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense at the moment.
 
To put it as simply as possible, I think it comes down to a matter of authority.

The Catholic side claimed that the papacy had a particular kind of authority, and in fact it had always been recognized as having certain special authority.

At the time of the schism, the authority of the papacy was, depending on your POV, being further developed, or being abused.

THere were a few hot-button issues, such as whether the Pope could legitimately appoint Eastern bishops, or whether he could, without the agreement of the majority of bishops, modify the Nicene Creed.

The Catholic position is that yes, those things and others were legitimate powers of the Poe, and so when the Eastern Church refused to follow, they were seen to be in schism. Their theological beliefs were not wrong, but their understanding.amd response to authority was.

So, really, IMO, the very basis of the argument relates to the political structure of the Church, although there were theological pegs that issue hung on at the time of the schism, and more have appeared since then.
The Orthodox position is that these were NOT legitimate powers of the Pope, and that by persuing that path the Western Church went not only into a schism of authority, but embraced incorrect theology.
 
This question is probably better answered by Catholics because I’m looking for the Catholic point of view. Why do we Catholics consider the Roman church to be the true church of Jesus Christ when Christianity first spread to predominately Greek-speaking parts of the East before it ever reached Rome? Doubtless Sts. Peter and Paul did go to Rome and spread the message of Christ, but what is making us say that the East split from the West and not the other way around? I’m a bit confused–it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense at the moment.
because it’s the Pope who maintains the unity in the Church. 🙂

there has always been the Pope, from the beginning (St Peter)

here’s a good source:
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. … ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas ‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: **who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. **The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

I also think that this is a really good article by Scott Hahn. He links the Papacy to Isaiah catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

God bless
 
=Silyosha;6112971]This question is probably better answered by Catholics because I’m looking for the Catholic point of view. Why do we Catholics consider the Roman church to be the true church of Jesus Christ when Christianity first spread to predominately Greek-speaking parts of the East before it ever reached Rome? Doubtless Sts. Peter and Paul did go to Rome and spread the message of Christ, but what is making us say that the East split from the West and not the other way around? I’m a bit confused–it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense at the moment.
***Simply Because,

It is God’s Will

God’s Plan

God’s Mandate***

**John 10:16 **And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd./**U]

Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I **singular] **tell you, you are Peter, **[singular] **and on this rock [singular] I will build my singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [singular] 19 I **God singular] **will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, **[singular] **built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; **[singular] **in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
because it’s the Pope who maintains the unity in the Church. 🙂

there has always been the Pope, from the beginning (St Peter)

here’s a good source:
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. … ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas ‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: **who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. **The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

I also think that this is a really good article by Scott Hahn. He links the Papacy to Isaiah catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

God bless
This was especially helpful, and thanks for the link. 🙂
 
Hi Blue,
The Catholic side claimed that the papacy had a particular kind of authority, and in fact it had always been recognized as having certain special authority.

At the time of the schism, the authority of the papacy was, depending on your POV, being further developed, or being abused.

So, really, IMO, the very basis of the argument relates to the political structure of the Church …
I see that you have attempted to give an impartial presentation of the opinions of both sides (centering upon Papal authority). I laud you for that.

The split was initiated by a Cardinal, during an interregnum. The text of the Bull they used is available, it seems that they were earnest about publishing this information when they got back to western Europe. Some think the Cardinal acted without authority.

The Excommunication with which Michael Kerularios and his Followers were wounded:

Humbert, cardinal bishop of the holy Roman Church by the grace of God; Peter, archbishop of Amalfi; and Frederick, deacon and chancellor, to all the children of the catholic Church.

The holy, primary, and apostolic see of Rome, to which the care of all the churches most especially pertains as if to a head, deigned to make us its ambassadors to this royal city for the sake of the peace and utility of the Church so that, in accordance with what has been written, we might descend and see whether the complaint which rises to its ears without ceasing from this great city, is realized in fact or to know if it is not like this. Let the glorious emperors, clergy, senate, and people of this city of Constantinople as well as the entire catholic Church therefore know that we have sensed here both a great good, whence we greatly rejoice in the Lord, and the greatest evil, whence we lament in misery.

For as far as the columns of the imperial power and its honored and wise citizens go, this city is most Christian and orthodox. But as far as Michael, who is called patriarch through an abuse of the term, and the backers of his foolishness are concerned, innumerable tares of heresies are daily sown in its midst. Because…
like Simoniacs, they sell the gift of God;
like Valesians, they castrate their guests and promote them not only to the clergy but to the episcopacy;
like Arians, they rebaptize those already baptized in the name of the holy Trinity, and especially Latins;
like Donatists, they claim that with the exception of the Greek Church, the Church of Christ and baptism has perished from the world;
like Nicolaitists, they allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers of the sacred altar;
like Severians, they say that the law of Moses is accursed; like Pneumatomachoi or Theomachoi, they cut off the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son;
like the Manichaeans among others, they state that leave is ensouled (animatum);
like the Nazarenes, they preserve the carnal cleanness of the Jews to such an extent that they refuse to baptize dying babies before eight days after birth and,
in refusing to communicate with pregnant or menstruating women, they forbid them to be baptized if they are pagan;
and because they grow the hair on their head and beards, they will not receive in communion those who tonsure their hair and shave their beards following the decreed practice of the Roman Church.

For these errors and many others committed by them, Michael himself, although admonished by the letters of our lord Pope Leo, contemptuously refused to repent. Furthermore, when we, the Pope’s ambassabors, wanted to eliminate the causes of such great evils in a reasonable way, he denied us his presence and conversation, forbid churches to celebrate Mass, just as he had earlier closed the churches of the Latins and, calling them “azymites,” had persecuted the Latins everywhere in word and deed. Indeed, so much [did he persecute them] that among his own children, he had anathematized the apostolic see and against it he still writes that he is the ecumenical patriarch. Therefore, because we did not tolerate this unheard of outrage and injury of the first, holy, and apostolic see and were concerned that the catholic faith would be undermined in many ways, by the authority of the holy and individuated Trinity and the apostolic see, whose embassy we are performing, and of all the orthodox fathers from the seven councils and of the entire catholic Church, we thus subscribe to the following anathema which the most reverend pope has proclaimed upon Michael and his followers unless they should repent.

Michael, neophyte patriarch through abuse of office (abusivus), who took on the monastic habit out of fear of men alone and is now accused by many of the worst of crimes; and with him Leo called bishop of Achrida; Constantine, chaplain of this Michael, who trampled the sacrifice of the Latins with profane feet; and all their followers in the aforementioned errors and acts of presumption:

Let them be anathema Maranatha with the Simoniacs, Valesians, Arians, Donatists, Nicolaitists, Severians, Pneumatomachoi, Manichaeans, Nazarenes, and all the heretics — nay, with the devil himself and his angels, unless they should repent.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.

Another Excommunication Performed There Out Loud in the Presence of the Emperor and his Princes

Whoever has stubbornly opposed the faith of the Roman Church and its sacrifice, let them be anathema Maranatha, nor let them be considered a catholic Christian, but a prozymite heretic.

Let it be done, let it be done!
 
This question is probably better answered by Catholics because I’m looking for the Catholic point of view. Why do we Catholics consider the Roman church to be the true church of Jesus Christ when Christianity first spread to predominately Greek-speaking parts of the East before it ever reached Rome? Doubtless Sts. Peter and Paul did go to Rome and spread the message of Christ, but what is making us say that the East split from the West and not the other way around? I’m a bit confused–it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense at the moment.
Very Good Question sister, i’m Orthodox and i will answer your question.

Look, i will answer you by asking another question because you seem a liitle bit confused about what you are saying.

My question is: Why the Church is split in so many parts?

The answer for that is not because Sts. Peter and Paul spread the Word of Christ in Rome, or whatever ( by the way, i may not have the Perfect answer to your question because i didn’t understand your question that much)
But all i can say that the splittery of the Church is due to the HISTORY that passed in the East.
So every Part claimed to be the most important and then they split.
Then don’t be confused.

And by the way, No church is the real one of the Christ, all the churches are REAL.

Thanks for reading Brothers and Sisters.

Message written by:
Gabi J Sabbagh
IOH: International Orthodox Help for Bible Teaching.
 
because it’s the Pope who maintains the unity in the Church. 🙂

there has always been the Pope, from the beginning (St Peter)

here’s a good source:
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. … ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas ‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: **who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. **The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

I also think that this is a really good article by Scott Hahn. He links the Papacy to Isaiah catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

God bless
👍 It was to Peter that Christ said, "YOU are ‘rock’ and upon this rock I will build my Church. There is no separation here between Peter and the revelations he has received. Our Lord did not say “your faith is rock”; there is a deep reason for this: the entire Revelation is Communion of Persons; thus the True Faith will mean a communion with Peter, and not merely an acceptance of Peter’s faith.

A communion of persons means love, since Divine Love is a Communion of Three Persons. It is not possible to have Peter’s faith without communion with Peter and be in the Charity or Love of God in Christ. (That is another reason why John’s Gospel after the Resurrection, Our Lord asks if Peter loves Him: there must be a communion of persons, between Peter and Our Lord. That’s what the Revelation is all about.)

Now, unfortunately, we have examples of people who have the same faith, yet who are not in communion with one another. It is more than interesting that St. Ignatius of Antioch sees the Roman Church “presiding in love”. This is tantamount to presiding in communion, and therefore in Eucharistic and sacramental communion.
 
👍 It was to Peter that Christ said, "YOU are ‘rock’ and upon this rock I will build my Church. There is no separation here between Peter and the revelations he has received. Our Lord did not say “your faith is rock”; there is a deep reason for this: the entire Revelation is Communion of Persons; thus the True Faith will mean a communion with Peter, and not merely an acceptance of Peter’s faith.

A communion of persons means love, since Divine Love is a Communion of Three Persons. It is not possible to have Peter’s faith without communion with Peter and be in the Charity or Love of God in Christ. (That is another reason why John’s Gospel after the Resurrection, Our Lord asks if Peter loves Him: there must be a communion of persons, between Peter and Our Lord. That’s what the Revelation is all about.)

Now, unfortunately, we have examples of people who have the same faith, yet who are not in communion with one another. It is more than interesting that St. Ignatius of Antioch sees the Roman Church “presiding in love”. This is tantamount to presiding in communion, and therefore in Eucharistic and sacramental communion.
Thank you very much for your response. I’ve hardly doubted the papacy but I wondered if the Orthodox leaders might “fit the bill” regarding Peter’s communion, so to speak.
 
Thank you very much for your response. I’ve hardly doubted the papacy but I wondered if the Orthodox leaders might “fit the bill” regarding Peter’s communion, so to speak.
Not unless they hold the See of Peter. 😉
 
Orthodox also allow for some degree of contraception, and permit divorcees to remarry, in contradiction to the Church’s historic understanding of these two issues.
 
I get really confused when folks describe themselves as “orthodox”. Do they mean eastern rites in communion with Rome or eastern rite not in communion with Rome?

I even hate asking this because all I ever get is more confusion for answers. Perhaps someday I’ll get it.
 
I also think that this is a really good article by Scott Hahn. He links the Papacy to Isaiah catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

God bless
I was wondering if you knew or someone else here knew who was the first person to specifically link the Papacy with that passage in Isaiah?

I’ve not seen it linked in the ECF, but then I’m sure that I’ve not read or even heard of each ECF.

Was it an early Church Father or was it Scott Hahn, PhD or was it someone else somewhere inbetween? Anyone know?
 
Orthodox also allow for some degree of contraception, and permit divorcees to remarry, in contradiction to the Church’s historic understanding of these two issues.
Not true at all. This has been hashed and rehashed.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
My personal study of the Roman Empire East and West seems to draw me to believe that the See of Rome is the Head of the One True Church of God.
 
I get really confused when folks describe themselves as “orthodox”. Do they mean eastern rites in communion with Rome or eastern rite not in communion with Rome?

I even hate asking this because all I ever get is more confusion for answers. Perhaps someday I’ll get it.
“Orthodox” refers to the Eastern churches not in communion with Rome. Even then, there are at least two groups that use the word “Orthodox”: Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox. Oriental Orthodox are also known as Non-Chalcedonian, because they only recognize up to the 3rd Ecumenical Council (Ephesus) as Ecumenical, and do not accept the Council of Chalcedon (many today say that we are all actually in agreement over Christology, just expressed differently, though that isn’t really relevant here). Oriental Orthodox churches include the Coptic Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic.

“Eastern Orthodox” is what is usually being referred to when people say “Orthodox”. These churches are not in communion with Rome. They include the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Russian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Orthodox Church in America, Antiochian Orthodox (Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch), etc.

“Eastern Catholic” refers to churches that are in communion with Rome. Most of them have a counterpart Orthodox church.
 
I get really confused when folks describe themselves as “orthodox”. Do they mean eastern rites in communion with Rome or eastern rite not in communion with Rome?

I even hate asking this because all I ever get is more confusion for answers. Perhaps someday I’ll get it.
Orthodox Christians means those Christians with valid Apostolic Succession. These Orthodox Christian Communities are either Patriarchates, Autocephalous or other Churches each with valid Apostolic Succession. Any individual who is a member of one of the follow is an Orthodox Christian: ec-patr.org/en/links.htm

The Ecumencial/Greek Patriarchate
Patriarchate of Alexandria
Patriarchate of Antioch
Patriarchate of Jerusalem
Patriarchate of Moscow
Patriarchate of Serbia
Patriarchate of Romania
Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Patriarchate of Georgia
Church of Cyprus
Church of Greece
Church of Albania
Church of Poland
Church of Czech-Slovakia
Church of Finland
Church of Estonia

The Patriarchate of Rome used to be listed first among those Orthodox Churches, but is no longer in union with Orthodoxy. The Great Schism is usually dated 1054 ad, but some find that the Sack of Constantinople in the 4th Crusade in 1204 was more of the final straw that finalized the separation.

That being said, over the years, there have been some Orthodox parishes/communities that have since separated themselves from communion with Orthodoxy and “united with Rome”. They are most often called Eastern Catholics, but that is a blanket term which covers several different Rites/Churches: like Ruthenian Catholics, Melkite Greek Catholics and so on. There are some among the Eastern Catholics who like to continue to think of themselves as Orthodox even though they have broken communion with the Orthodox Church by uniting with Rome…I think this is where your confusion lies. As there are some here who list their religion as “Orthodox in communion with Rome” when really there is no such thing. Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 834 states that each Particular Church in communion with Rome is fully “Catholic”.

Now then, you also have Coptic and Orientals who call themselves Orthodox and other Coptic and Orientals who call themselves Catholic. These Church groups separated themselves from unity with the Church prior to the separation of Rome. They did Not accept the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon held in 451 ad. Parts of these Church communities continued to call themselves Orthodox even though they’d not been in union with the Orthodox Church since the Council of Chalcedon. And other parts of these Church communities reunited with Rome (after Rome and the Orthodox Church had separated) and therefore became “Catholic” so they are Coptic Catholic or Oriental Catholic - but sometimes they like to call themselved “Orthodox in communion with Rome”.

Here is the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law on how it sees Orthodox Christians who are Not in communion with Rome as far as reception of the Sacraments are concerned: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2T.HTM Canon 844.2 & 844.3

It may also be helpful to read the Catechsim of the Catholic Church re: Orthodox Christians also: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM Paragraph # 838.
 
Dear Silyosha,
This question is probably better answered by Catholics because I’m looking for the Catholic point of view. Why do we Catholics consider the Roman church to be the true church of Jesus Christ when Christianity first spread to predominately Greek-speaking parts of the East before it ever reached Rome? Doubtless Sts. Peter and Paul did go to Rome and spread the message of Christ, but what is making us say that the East split from the West and not the other way around? I’m a bit confused–it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense at the moment.
I don’t think language or culture Christianity found itself is a very good gauge to determine this. I’ll give you an example. You say, “Christianity first spread to predominantly Greek-speaking parts of the East.” If “Greek-speaking parts of the East” is really that important, I could ask, “why didn’t Christ appear when the Greek Empire was in its ascendancy? Why did Christ appear when Latin Rome was the ruling power?” If the language and culture that Christianity FIRST found itself in is to be a gauge of which Church is correct… well, let’s just say I don’t subscribe to that logic, and I hope you see why. That criteria is ultimately subject to myriad interpretations.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I get really confused when folks describe themselves as “orthodox”. Do they mean eastern rites in communion with Rome or eastern rite not in communion with Rome?

I even hate asking this because all I ever get is more confusion for answers. Perhaps someday I’ll get it.
If capitalized, it refers to the non-Catholics Eastern Churches; On its own, usually to those descendant from Constantinople (via Constantinople, or via cadet descent from Byzantine Antioch, or Moscow), known as the Eastern Orthodox. They are defined by their intercommunion, not, per se, communion with any particular patriarch.

The Oriental Orthodox are a separate communion of non-Catholic Churches. They are defined by being in communion with the (Coptic) Pope of Alexandria, at present, His Holiness Shenouda III.

With a lowercase o, it means proper-believing.

Orthodox In Communion With Rome refers to the Byzantine Catholics of the 14 byzantine rite Churches Sui Iuris… and is often considered a misnomer. It fits, however, because all 14 started out as members of the Eastern Orthodox Communion, who came into union with Rome.
 
This question is probably better answered by Catholics because I’m looking for the Catholic point of view. Why do **we Catholics consider the Roman church to be the true church **of Jesus Christ when Christianity first spread to predominately Greek-speaking parts of the East before it ever reached Rome?
Why do Latin Catholics consider the Latin Church to be the Catholic Church? It is not. The predominately celebrated Roman Rite is only one Rite of the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches and Oriental Catholic Churches are not Roman…

You might look back over the archives here where many discussions, turning into shouting matches, have be hashed out here in the past regarding the " true church".
 
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