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Tim_Kirchoff
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You remember those books I recommended, the ones which are advertised in the banners on the top of the forum? Mary, Mother of the Son by Mark Shea? Read them.Or I’m simply looking for answers…
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Tim_Kirchoff
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Luke 1:38
Luke 2:34-35
That which is not in quotes is the result of a logical extrapolation of an interpretation of these and other verses.
Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord. By understanding Mary, we see certain attributes of God under a magnifying glass. In coming to a fuller understanding of who God is, we can come into a deeper relationship with Him. To undersrtand Mary is to come closer to God.
But the commandment is agaisnt all graven images, isn’t it, not just images of people? The images in the temple would certainly qualify as graven images.
It seems to me that the commandment isn’t about the images so much as idol worship.
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n4mgr
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This guy Martin R. is nothing more than a troll trying to start argument or a heretical protestant trying to lead Catholics out of the Church. He has been reported to the moderators who choose to do nothing, be warned.Well, I could give you an answer, but you appear to already know all the answers. So, why are you asking?
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n4mgr
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I wish you would use all the Teachings of the Church, not just Vatican 2. I stopped reading when you mentioned that as it holds no water. The documents and anathemas from all previous councils are still in effect and should be used when reading V2 as the so called spirit of V2 is heretical and V2 by itself is meaningless without Tradition.
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Tim_Kirchoff
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If he’s done nothing to warrant being banned, let him stay. I for one am not particularly afraid of anything he might say.
As long as he stays charitable, we shouldn’t have a problem answering him.
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n4mgr
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Yes, this is true. Holy Mother Church defends herself quite well. I haven’t met many, in any charitable anti-Catholics though. (Edited)If he’s done nothing to warrant being banned, let him stay. I for one am not particularly afraid of anything he might say.
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Tim_Kirchoff
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I find it hard to beleive that a person would read only his posts and not the Catholic responses to them.
And even leaving the Church does not necessarily send a person to Hell. There are a number of people who have left the Church, only to return, years later- but this time with the strength of conviction that the Catholic faith is the True Faith. The Lord works in mysterious ways.
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n4mgr
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That is your opinion and what you and others have been taught since V2, I don’t believe it, nor am I required too. I do not believe there is Salvation outside the Catholic church, just as the Council of Trent declares and do not support the documents of Vatican 2 that contradict the Teachings og the Church. This isn’t to say I reject the council, just don’t give it the weight that most folks do. Also, While I know this post may cause problems with most people, that is ok. It isn’t intended to insult or offend.
BTW, I am a convert, since '05 and have learned so much more since than during RCIA, I know the Catholic Faith is the True Faith without a doubt.
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Tim_Kirchoff
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You know that it is true, I know that it is true, but many others don’t. Actual rejection of Church teaching is quite different from invincible ignorance.
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n4mgr
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But one can’t claim invincible ignorance when they leave the Truth for heresy. Any “ecclesial body” that calls itself Christian but teaches what is not Catholic or is even anti-Catholic is heretical and people have failed to realize that in the past few decades. The ecumenical movement I believe will be found out for what it is and hopefully and end put to it. I say that only because there is but one way, our Blessed Lord said so himself. Narrow the Gate, meaning that only one path will get you there and there is only one interpretation that is right, NOT Martin R.'s, not mine or yours, but that of the Catholic Church from 33A.D. until 2009A.D. and everywhere in between.
Now, I will say we adore Mary in the same way we adore our children, our parents and so on. It isn’t worship, only admiration. We pray that she intercede for us to her Son, for how can a Son deny his Mother, even more so with our Blessed Lord. This picking apart language differences isn’t right. I know I explained what I said earlier, not talking about worship and this time I know I don’t need to be slapped on the wrist with Vatican 2 documents. Adoration is necessarily worship even though Worship is partly adoration, if that makes sense. It’s like when we make a Holy hour with the Most Blessed Sacrament, the act there is Worship, but adoration is a huge part of it. We don’t give that worship to Mary, but because of her roll in Salvation history we do give her an ENORMOUS amount of respect and honor. I believe she watches out for her children(namely you and I) and intercedes with her Son for us. If the Blessed Mother can’t pray for me, then NOBODY can.
As for statues, images, icons and the like, if you think these are wrong in any way, you need to go to your house and remove every picture of anything from your house. It works both ways. The Blessed Mother and the Saints are family to most of us and we have their pictures up just like folks would have pictures of their kids, mom and dad, aunts, uncles and so on.
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Church_Militant
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That’s not a theory, it’s called types and foreshadowing and it’s a staple of Christian Biblical theology.
Really? What are you, a Jehovah’s Witness? Read the 1st chapter of John’s Gospel. That is speaking specifically of Jesus, and the look up John 10:30 where Jesus specifically says, “I and the Father are one.”
This all ties directly to Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Of course you miss the clear teaching of this passage. The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Only to someone who tries to stuff Almighty God into the dinky little box of their own carnal thinking.
Not true at all. See the article linked above.
And if God did not anywhere express displeasure with that temple (and He would have if it was a graven image violation) then that gives us insight into what is really forbidden in the first commandment.
There are no instructions in the Bible about many things…wedding rings…air travel, cars, submarines, rockets into space, electric lights, nor even computers, and yet they all exist and Christians use them for the glory of God. By your fallacious logic every single thing that we do and have must be found in the Bible, yet that is a concept that is nowhere found in the Word of God.
New American Bible and even the original 1611 edition of the King James Version contains them.
Saint Worship?
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Church_Militant
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And yet you have so far denied the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, a doctrine fundamental to the Christian faith from day one, so obviously you are not as knowledgeable of the Christian faith as you seem to wish to appear.
Read these articles and then if you wish to discuss the deity of Christ, copy it into the opening post of a new thread and you’ll get a Christain education on this.
The Divinity of Christ (Fathers*)
The Eternal Sonship of Christ (Fathers*)
Filioque (Fathers*)
God Has No Body (Fathers*)
God in Three Persons (Fathers*)
The One True God (Fathers*)
The Trinity (Fathers*)
somebody on His behalf, not that He would come to earth Himself.
**I think we’ve gone off topic a bit here but I could start another thread titled, “Is Jesus God?”, if you’d like to discuss it further.**Right.
Yet that passage does not even infer that the Bible claims to be the sole and ultimate authority for all that Christians believe and practice. In fact it never makes that claim anywhere within its pages.Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition. and Tradition? No way!
. They tried to use it to win battles for them and were punished for it. Whenever you meet a Catholic, they talk about Mary, have pictures and statues of Mary and as far as I know, Mary is mentioned in every church service.
It’s like receiving an important letter and then showing everybody what a wonderful envelope it came in. You seem to be missing the point of the Bible. i.e. Jesus.You know virtually nothing about Catholic faith, and your remarks here indicate that you are basing them on what others have told you about Catholicism rather than any real experience with us. Moreover, I am willing to bet that you brought up Mary in conversation with your Catholic friend and were directed here to CAF for further discussion, but your friend didn’t bring the Blessed Virgin up…you did.
If, as I suspect, you are a Jehovah’s Witness (or someone who studies with them) then you are the one who does not focus on the Biblical teachings as to who Jesus was and hold to an ancient heresy known (and long ago refuted), called Arianism.
Snide remarks like that are not indicative of Christian charity, and so far a I can see everyone on this thread has done their best to answer you with charity and concise information. Stick to the topic and be charitable and respectful of the Catholic faith as you agreed to when you joined this forum and all will be well. I suggest that you get to know those rules before you post any more.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum
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n4mgr
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You may want to read my post again, nowhere did I say ANYTHING about Saint worship, you said that. I know there is a HUGE illiteracy problem in Amerika today, but it shouldn’t be here. I reject the NAB due to the same ambiguity that flowed forth from the second Vatican council(this doesn’t say I reject the council, I don’t, only the ambiguous language in the documents which can not be read in light of Tradition). I will abide by the Roman Catechism as well as all that is good and Holy is to be found there. I find it hard to find Holiness in the CCC because it is so full of touchy-feely language that God is minimized.
BTW, If you had read my post you would have read the part concerning the difference between Adoration and Worship(which is due to G-d alone)
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n4mgr
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Everyone can get caught up in the heat of the moment, but from what I have read this posters intent is nothing less than malicious.
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Church_Militant
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Off topic and answered in private message.
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Church_Militant
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Who?
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n4mgr
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Martin R.
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n4mgr
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I understand the rules and all, but I go where the conversation goes.
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allhers
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We had the traditions of the Church and the Church itself long before the Bible was compiled by the Church.
(By the way, I love our Blessed Mother and thank you Jesus for giving her to us as our Mother too.
She was with Jesus His entire life and she is still with HIM. Someday may we all be as blessed. She leads all right to Jesus and she was doing this long before we had a Bible
too. We all ought to be more like her and her precious Son.)
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Church_Militant
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Rules govern where the discussion goes. End of off topic discussion.
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