Why Catholics uncomfortable with ‘Amoris’ aren’t ‘dissenters’

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Crux commentary:Why Catholics uncomfortable with ‘Amoris’ aren’t ‘dissenters’

“Most Catholics uncomfortable with ‘Amoris Laetitia’ aren’t dissenters or people with an ax to grind against the pope, but rather people who simply want their children to know and follow the Church’s call to sexual integrity and marital fidelity – and, to be clear, that’s not only possible, but life-giving.”

I was hesitant to post another AL article, since the battelines here at CAF are so well-formed and I don’t want to prompt another 100 posts by the same folks on each side making the same arguments.

However, I thought this article took an interesting angle. While the title might indicate that a polemic arguing one side is coming, I think it’s actually more focused on explaining the “Church’s call to sexual integrity and marital fidelity” and that it’s “not only possible, but life-giving.” Coming from a developmental psychologist who focuses on marriage and parenting relationships, I found this to be a really useful perspective on the overall issue.

I hope it’s of value to some others who might still be in the information/perspective gathering mode, as I am 🙂
 
The article brought out many valid points. Thanks for sharing!
 
Good article. I do not like the level of intolerance among Catholics lately. I do not know if something is in the water, but we really should be able to accept that no everyone will think like us. We can disagree on a whole lot and still be good Catholics, even orthodox Catholics.
 
The question for the Church is this: how can we bring true mercy and love to every single person represented in these scenarios – to adults and children, those who have harmed their families, those who are victims of abandonment, and those who may fall somewhere in between?
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I agree. But I don’t understand why everyone and their mother needs to have an opinion on this.
 
I think one of the issues is that the idea that “some people just can’t stay chaste”, whether when it comes to divorced people, or single people, is that there seems to be this idea that if you are following the Church’s teaching, you must be near-asexual prude with a very weak sex drive to begin with.

This assumption actually fails to acknowledge that there are people who have “normal” sex drives and actually find chastity to be a cross, but who actually DO manage to carry it and not succumb to temptation. But instead of supporting them, people just assume “well obviously chastity is easy for you, but it’s not easy for me so I deserve a free pass”.

It’s similar to the idea many seem to have that “the vast majority of gay people can’t stay chaste and don’t want to, so we should rightly regard with suspicion even those who claim to be chaste despite their SSA”.
 
I have always said that Catholics have a right to speak up about things they disagree with, and that Catholics should not be shy about exploring issues, thinking and talking about discipline and doctrine. Anyone who has seen my posts here over the years knows I am not shy about doing the same.

But I do take exception with those that claim the Pope lacks authority to teach on this or other issues, or those that start throwing around terms like heretic, satanic, demon influenced, and so forth. (Yes, posters here have said each of those things.) Most Catholics understand that they must simultaneously accept that the Church has the authority to control its own teaching, while also discussing those things that they find troubling or confusing in a rational way. We sometimes struggle with that here at CAF. (Although I find it is not hard to do with Catholics in real life.)

All that said, for someone that can’t get comfortable with a given teaching, and therefore disagrees with it, is in dissent. If you disagree with the Church’s teachings, seems like you are dissenting. I don’t find that necessarily pejorative or damning. Most Catholics dissent on one thing or another, and sometimes the dissenters turn out to be right. But maybe there is some nuance to “dissenter” that I am missing here.
 
Those of us who stand staunchly behind the Sacraments of Marriage, Reconciliation and the Eucharist are now “dissenters” in the Catholic Church because we disagree with AL? Really! That misses the point entirely. It isn’t about marriage “as an ideal”! It isn’t about “uncomfortable feelings”! It isn’t about being “a model for the children”.

This is about is mortal sin and scandal, the crime of solicitation and sacrilege. What part of “adultery is a mortal sin and a grave matter” doesn’t the hierarchy of the Catholic Church understand? How many souls will end up in hell because of Francis’ innovation? Je suis Malta? Spit upon the Eucharist? Nail our Lord (again) to a wooden cross? Hey, why not!

If AL becomes the practice, then as far as I am concerned, the abomination of desolation has entered into the Holy Place. I will not partake; I will not participate in the desecration of the mass. I will not crucify the Lord for a second time. Do whatever you wish to do. Call me whatever you wish to call me. But I will not condone or partake in such an evil.

I think it is crystal clear what is happening in the Catholic faith – if you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Choose this day whom you will serve. I will serve the Lord.
 
I don’t see how one could be a “dissenter” with respect to A.L. unless its meaning is made clear. What part of A.L would one be dissenting against? A footnote?
 
Wampa said:
Crux commentary:Why Catholics uncomfortable with ‘Amoris’ aren’t ‘dissenters’

“Most Catholics uncomfortable with ‘Amoris Laetitia’ aren’t dissenters or people with an ax to grind against the pope, but rather people who simply want their children to know and follow the Church’s call to sexual integrity and marital fidelity – and, to be clear, that’s not only possible, but life-giving.”

I was hesitant to post another AL article, since the battelines here at CAF are so well-formed and I don’t want to prompt another 100 posts by the same folks on each side making the same arguments.

However, I thought this article took an interesting angle. While the title might indicate that a polemic arguing one side is coming, I think it’s actually more focused on explaining the “Church’s call to sexual integrity and marital fidelity” and that it’s “not only possible, but life-giving.” Coming from a developmental psychologist who focuses on marriage and parenting relationships, I found this to be a really useful perspective on the overall issue.

I hope it’s of value to some others who might still be in the information/perspective gathering mode, as I am 🙂
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Good article. 👍
 
3_Dog_Night said:
Those of us who stand staunchly behind the Sacraments of Marriage, Reconciliation and the Eucharist are now “dissenters” in the Catholic Church because we disagree with AL? Really! That misses the point entirely. It isn’t about marriage “as an ideal”! It isn’t about “uncomfortable feelings”! It isn’t about being “a model for the children”.

This is about is mortal sin and scandal, the crime of solicitation and sacrilege. What part of “adultery is a mortal sin and a grave matter” doesn’t the hierarchy of the Catholic Church understand? How many souls will end up in hell because of Francis’ innovation? Je suis Malta? Spit upon the Eucharist? Nail our Lord (again) to a wooden cross? Hey, why not!

If AL becomes the practice, then as far as I am concerned, the abomination of desolation has entered into the Holy Place. I will not partake; I will not participate in the desecration of the mass. I will not crucify the Lord for a second time. Do whatever you wish to do. Call me whatever you wish to call me. But I will not condone or partake in such an evil.

I think it is crystal clear what is happening in the Catholic faith – if you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Choose this day whom you will serve. I will serve the Lord.
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This is exactly the kind of extreme rhetoric that is unhelpful. Those that support the Pope on AL also stand behind the Sacraments of Marriage, Reconciliation and the Eucharist. To accuse those that differ with you (and agree with the Pope) of “abomination” “spitting on the Eucharist” “desecration” and “evil” is neither accurate nor a way to advance your points or discuss the issue. You are saying that the majority of Catholics, and Catholic bishops, are actively and deliberately working against God. Surely you do not really believe that.
 
JimG said:
I don’t see how one could be a “dissenter” with respect to A.L. unless its meaning is made clear. What part of A.L would one be dissenting against? A footnote?
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I wonder, too.

It seems there are two opposing takes on that footnote. One is that there may be some extreme, extenuating circumstances that reduce a divorced and “remarried” person’s culpability for adultery to a level that is low enough so that they are not in a state of mortal sin. This makes sense to me as this is a principle applied to other sins to determine if they are “mortal” or not.

Another, more controversial one is that it doesn’t matter what the level of culpability is, it’s just A-OK to commit the sin of adultery to prevent supposedly greater evils such as one person in the “marriage” going out and fornicating with others, or abandoning the “spouse” and children, etc.

The problem with this is that I can’t see why this wouldn’t apply to those who are not in the “D+R” situation, such as someone being blackmailed into continuing an adulterous affair. Or a convert from a traditional African religion, or even Islam, who is in a polygamous marriage. But the “ends justify the means” is far from what I understand of most Church teaching.
 
3_Dog_Night said:
If AL becomes the practice, then as far as I am concerned, the abomination of desolation has entered into the Holy Place.
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Martin Luther said the same thing 500 years ago.

He’s always glad to have new recruits.
I think it is crystal clear what is happening in the Catholic faith – if you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Choose this day whom you will serve. I will serve the Lord.
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Nice of you to throw other Catholics - including the four Cardinals who would never use such hyperbolic and intemperate language as you - under the bus. They are handling this issue the right way, and I trust them.

Go back to CARM or InfoWars where you belong. 😛
 
3_Dog_Night said:
If AL becomes the practice, then as far as I am concerned, the abomination of desolation has entered into the Holy Place. I will not partake; I will not participate in the desecration of the mass. I will not crucify the Lord for a second time. Do whatever you wish to do. Call me whatever you wish to call me. But I will not condone or partake in such an evil.
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If you have so little faith in the Church and your religion, then perhaps that’s what you ought to do. Or maybe you should just calm down. Your rhetoric sounds nearly hysterical.
 
The Church’s ultimate trial

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
 
"The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres…churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.

“The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”

Our Lady of Akita
October 13, 1973

ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm
 
JPUSC said:
The Church’s ultimate trial

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
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Read the book of Revelation.

Compare what is written there with the current state of the Church.

Mountains, molehills…it’s all the same to some folks.

Those Rapture-envy folks who want a Great Event in 2017 will get exactly what they wanted - a Great Disappointment, and I’m not talking about the Donald. 😃
 
JPUSC said:
"The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres…churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.

“The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”

Our Lady of Akita
October 13, 1973

ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm
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👍

Thank you.

I wonder why God allows things like this? When so many will perish? Even from the days of Noah and Abraham and Moses and ancient Israel? What is the point, really? Sometimes I just don’t get it.:confused:
 
Of course they are not dissenters. How can one dissent by obeying Jesus, Paul, an ecumenical council, 265 popes and 2000 years of consistent magisterium? Another thing, technically, they are not uncomforble with AL but with certain interpretations of it.
 
RPRPsych said:
Martin Luther said the same thing 500 years ago.

He’s always glad to have new recruits.
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Without succumbing to hyperbole, and not to apply your comment to anyone else, one cannot be walking in the footsteps of Luther in defending the constant teaching of the Church.

Luther’s position was that the Catholic Church had departed from the “Biblical” Christianity at some unknown point over 1,000 years before his time. The position of those who defend the Church’s constant teaching on the subject of the sinfulness of sex outside of Marriage and the need of a firm purpose of amendment in order to receive Absolution in Confession, is to reaffirm what the Church has always done since our Lord established His Church on Earth.
 
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