Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

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Both Contarini and Peter Plato have made some excellent points.

Slavery as natural law permits is really a sort of lifetime indentured servitude. If somebody were to voluntarily offer his services for life in exchange for some other good for him or perhaps his family then this is permitted as long as the slave is treated extremely well by the master; the trouble is that it’s almost impossible not to abuse and so slavery is, correctly, outlawed in the western world today (though sadly not eliminated).
 
I think the golden rule is a good one to live by. It is extremely simplified, but it works well. And Jesus didn’t invent it, in case you didn’t know.
Actually, he did:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Through him all things including the golden rule 😉] were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (Jn 1:1,3)
 
… and all in under 5 minutes!

youtube.com/watch?v=rikj0WMGbDU

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It’s a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.
God’s word teaches us homosexuality is an abomination.If God is with us who can stand against us?
 
Why Catholics will never “win” on homosexuality
That battle has already been won
“Be of good cheer because I have overcome the world”
or
“…and darkness could not overpower it.”
or
“the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.”
meaning the forces of the underworld are cowering behind hell’s gates trying to hold out to no avail…

My thinking is that without reference to God, it is difficult to make an argument; for that matter any argument. There will be at least one position for every person in the argument. I remember a past regional boss who used to say people can spin just about anything…

God who is Love, and Good, and Truth, and all Light is opposed to and detests sin (he has called some of those actions some people are advocating as ‘abominable’), and evil, and darkness. It is He then who defines and is a reference to what is love, good, true, and light.

Love is love…not so fast. Just ask many a girl or boy with a broken heart but with now some years of hindsight.
 
Well, in all fairness, sensible people look around at their friends, neighbors, and family who are in loving homosexual relationships. The idea that a loving relationship could possibly be evil simply doesn’t compute, especially when you consider that God is Love personified.

Notice how any / most of the arguments have some component of “well, you might think it’s love, but it’s actually evil in disguise”?
I think the issue here is one of ambiguity. A loving relationship is not reducible to a sexual relationship. There are all kinds of loving relationships that do not involve sex: parent-child, grandparent-parent, siblings, friends. All of these are loving relationships and no one would argue that they are evil. However, if any of them did become sexual any sensible person could say, something very disfunctional (and even evil) has transpired.

The crucial question is, “Which relationships should incorporate sex?”

If someone made the argument that any loving relationship could involve sex, that would be problematic, don’t you agree?

Peter Williams makes an important point regarding the definition of marriage once it becomes abstracted from its inherently functional purpose, I.e., the procreation of children. He argues on the British Christian Radio program Unbelievable? (link below) that once marriage becomes defined by law as based upon “loving relationship” rather than procreative union, then the law becomes wide open to challenge that any form of “loving” relationship, such as polygamy, incest, polyandry, multiple spouses, etc. would be legally sanctioned because by definition each of these could be argued to be “loving” in the same sense that gay marriage is. The distinctive feature for marriage should be the natural, functional one - that is the the one that has served as the historical basis of the family unit and of civilization. Once that “natural” bond of marriage to procreation is ruptured, the result is a legal Pandora’s box of alternatives that have the same justification to be upheld under the law as gay marriage because the definition of “loving relationship” includes all of them. The law will have no teeth.

premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={45A7CC8B-2EE9-4394-B030-54C00AA7CA39}

He has an article here as well.

To answer your concern that…, “The idea that a loving relationship could possibly be evil simply doesn’t compute, especially when you consider that God is Love personified.

Think of those “loving relationships” listed above, parent-child, brother-sister, brother-brother, sister-sister, male to multiple females, female to multiple males, multiple males to multiple females. Would you truthfully consider none of these loving relationships to be “evil” when they begin to involve sex?
 
We DO. Read all of the threads on contraception. We address other issues ALL THE TIME.

EDIT: Not to mention masturbation. I believe masturbation is a sin. Even a mortal sin. I’ll even argue that it is. But do you really think I don’t struggle with it? That I don’t comit it?
it is only the catholics who believe that masturbation is a mortal sin; so all other people(S) are destined for hell?
scientifically it is proved that mast…is a harmless exercise and giving it the label of ‘mortal’ causes much confusion amongst the teenagers esp. boys and make them guilty of a grave sin, which it may not be.
in this context, we may recall that the clergy is guilty of the worst kind of sin, that of using their authority to molest children and lead them astray, and it appears that they are well SHIELDED!

Jesus himself had warned these elders against misleading innocent children and leading them astray…
 
Do you know what natural law actually is? Do you know how to apply it?

If it was applied to slavery (I’ve never heard anybody ever actually make a rational natural law argument for slavery) it was because people of other races were thought to be subhuman. Biology has proven this false.

I’m sorry, but stop with this ridiculousness. Stop criticizing a principle you know nothing about with silly pseudo-arguments.
So you are saying that natural law is objectively true, even though it was used to defend slavery. What I am saying is that just like any other moral system it can be twisted and turned to defend some things that are obviously not moral.
 
  1. Okay, I said Jesus invented the golden rule when…? Thanks for the history lesson…?
I already knew that completely irrelevant fact, thanks.
  1. Cool. So you consider it an objective standard? Why?
I don’t know if there is an objective standard of ethics or morality. I do think that a good mind and good heart can be used to figure out what is best in each situation. Sometimes lying is bad, sometimes it is the right thing to do. There are very few actions that are wrong all of the time (rape being one that I can’t imagine ever being moral).
 
In the long run of history this will no doubt be the outcome. The current sexual degeneracy will result in liberalism’s end, but as you say, that outcome will be futiley fought be a dying liberalism with extraordinary violence. Christians will no doubt suffer martyrdom. The Cristero Wars in Mexico provide a mild preview. In the end, society will return to reason. We may suffer through a new dark age, but it is always the Church which is left to pick up the remnants and rebuild civilization.
Where are you guys getting this? Wouldn’t the more logical prediction be that liberalism will continue to grow and the church will become marginalized? Isn’t this already happening in the European countries in Scandinavia?..you know, the ones that have some of the highest living standards in the world.
 
Erm, you realize that everything I said is perfectly reconcilable with the fact that in the short term we will almost definitely be saddled with gay “marriage” because of the liberalism of the youth, right?

I am talking about trends stretching over several lifetimes.
You really think that the liberalism of the youth will somehow lead to conservatism of their kids or grand kids? In 50 years people will look back on the gay marriage debate like people look back on segregation and Rosa Parks today.
 
So… it is your tentative philosophy (opinion) that philosophy can never really prove anything [to you]. In other words you have used philosophy [albeit badly] to prove that philosophy can never really prove anything.

Roughly translated I take your position to mean that no matter what logically sound arguments supported by strong premises (evidence) anyone provides, these will never prove anything to you because your opinions are not based upon strong rational arguments (philosophy) but on something else that you have not yet devulged, but is more convincing to you than strong rational arguments.

You’ll get no argument from me to try to persuade you to change your opinion.:hmmm:
What can philosophy prove? Just give me one example of something proven philosophically.
 
God’s word teaches us homosexuality is an abomination.If God is with us who can stand against us?
Well that is just your opinion that God’s word is an abomination. And if you are going to use language from Leviticus you should make sure to stone kids that aren’t obedient and not wear clothes with more than one type of fabric, right?
 
it is only the catholics who believe that masturbation is a mortal sin; so all other people(S) are destined for hell?
scientifically it is proved that mast…is a harmless exercise and giving it the label of ‘mortal’ causes much confusion amongst the teenagers esp. boys and make them guilty of a grave sin, which it may not be.
in this context, we may recall that the clergy is guilty of the worst kind of sin, that of using their authority to molest children and lead them astray, and it appears that they are well SHIELDED!

Jesus himself had warned these elders against misleading innocent children and leading them astray…
Do you really think any of what you wrote is a logical argument?
 
Well that is just your opinion that God’s word is an abomination. And if you are going to use language from Leviticus you should make sure to stone kids that aren’t obedient and not wear clothes with more than one type of fabric, right?
Why? Do you think Catholics study the bible in that facile way as you do?
 
Is the moral truth determined by the church? Why didn’t Paul condemn slavery in his letter to Philemon?
Truth can be known by all.

As for slavery you need to understand the difference between chattel slavery
and indentured servitude.
 
Why? Do you think Catholics study the bible in that facile way as you do?
No I don’t. But if you quote passages of Leviticus to defend your position, you shouldn’t be able to pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that still apply.
 
Well, in all fairness, sensible people look around at their friends, neighbors, and family who are in loving homosexual relationships. The idea that a loving relationship could possibly be evil simply doesn’t compute, especially when you consider that God is Love personified.

Notice how any / most of the arguments have some component of “well, you might think it’s love, but it’s actually evil in disguise”?
Athena,

You appear to be sympathetic to the same sex movement. I listened to the song. I investigated Vienna and she is straight and sympathetic voicing your opinion. Sometimes what we see is what we want to see. Sometimes what we see isn’t what it is. The question is how do you define “love”? The answer to that question is what unravels what you see. This is explained here.
11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
 
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