Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

[CopticChristian]

Hearts are changing every day. With so many people coming out and being more visible more people are seeing the real harm that is caused to people by discrimination. Avowed homophobes are reconsidering their positions as their siblings, children, or friends come out.

**Even if it takes a few decades for full equality, the climate is changing and it will happen./**QUOTE]

Blue,

Equality for what an whom?

 

[CopticChristian]

And what is the TRUTH you speak of and what is it based on?

The Pope said that Christ “guides and is responsible for the Christian community as its leader and its Lord. The Church is subject to Him, both to follow His superior guidance and to receive all of the life that emanates from Him.”
Vatican City, Jan 14, 2009 / 11:05 am (CNA).

To my knowledge, according to the gospels, Jesus never commented on same-sex practices.

Alexalee,

Let me provide you some knowledge.

3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” 7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?” 8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

  10The disciples said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” 11But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. 12“For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

Jesus did not include a discussion of marriage with same sex, beasts, NAMBLA, Transgendered, Cross dressers, Parapheliacs, Statues, or any other sort of union. Do you require some sort of literal explicit teaching?

As a Catholic you realize that the Catechism states based on Scripture and Tradition homosexual acts are disorderd and under no circumstances are they to be approved. You are Catholic. Read your Catechism.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes indeed…those gay and lesbian people who want to get married are quite small in number indeed to the other “sins” “we” so easily keep quiet over…but then…we keep quiet for similar reasons as the OP brought up…we see our brothers, sisters, moms, dads, children, friends in those who live together without benefit of marriage…or children out of wedlock…or divorced and remarried people…large numbers…people we know and love and accept as “our own”…it’s easier to see gay and lesbian people as "other"…and that is why gay and lesbian people see themselves as “attacked” and singled out…there are plenty of other “targets” out there right in our own back yards…but for the most part…they are left “untouched”.

Publisher,

You point out the Cognitave Dissonance of the Homosexual/gay agenda. They want you to see them as other. Alternate lifestyle, a separate class, similar to the Slaves, oppressed, similar to women without rights…and then here you point out that what they are on the march to do you ask those that read your posts not to do.

You are aware of Schizophrenogenic messages that children in Schizophrenic homes get are you not? Sit down, stand up…all at the same time. This leads to Schizophrenic thinking and an inability to contend with what is right. You have swallowed the Schizophrenic message.

Memes are viruses of the mind perpetuated by repition and cognitave dissonance. The repetition of the message of the gay/agenda is everywhere infiltrating your mind and you have stumbled on the Cognitave Dissonance that helps perpetuate this virus. Good going.

We are a separate class…we are an alternate lifestyle…we need our rights…and here you go…on this side we are not to see them as other. They certainly have you going in the right direction for support.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s also easy to deny the “insinuation” when we just don’t listen to the cries of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

Publisher,

The Prodigal son left the bosom of the family and ate with pigs. The family languished until the return. We hear the cries, we hear the wallowing and until they return there will be no celebration.

 

[CopticChristian]

i have to state that in GOD’S presence all are welcome, whether homosexual or heterosexual…so why should it not be so amongst men…
JUDGE NOT THAT YOU MAY NOT BE JUDGED -THE BIBLE

Wisdom

All are welcome that “do the Will of God”…God welcomes the repentant sinner. We turn our back on God, God never turns His back on us. All are welcome to return.

 

[CopticChristian]

=interestedman

;9662205]Already won what? It would be nice if God would just clarify some things for us though. Your God might not like same sex marriage, your neighbor’s God certainly might though, and your other neighbor’s God might hate certain minority groups.

**Basically your opinion of God is no more valid (at least in argument) than anyone else’s…and that is because in reality there is no real evidence that any of these gods exist./**QUOTE]

Interested,

To this statement you must add…

In my opinion, based on what I know, based on my experience, based on what I believe…because while we believe differently, I cannot deny that for you there is evidence that God exists, that I cannot comprehend.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’d like to comment on this.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"Definition of homophobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals "

“Definition of aversion - a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it”

I have read hundreds of posts here from Catholic’s regarding homosexuals which fit the definition of “aversion”. Its probably difficult to communicate love and acceptance to gays and lesbians when words like perversion, disordered, sinful, disgusting and child abuse are included in the dialog.

Given the definition of aversion and how it relates to the word homophobia, I have to admit that in my experience I would classify most of the people I know personally who are deeply opposed to gay marriage as “homophobes”.

Belle,

The dictionary is filled with words that come to us by “usage”. This is how they are defined. To conclude what you conclude based on a definition only implies that you have a definition arrived at by usage and then have applied it to what you see written or posted.

The only way to know what someone means is to ask “what do you mean by that”. This will help clarify what it is they mean. This approach is “Protestant” in that it takes a book and words and applies it to what someone says. I am not of the book. Catholics are not solely of the Book.

If I want to know what someone means, ie homophobia, I ask…try asking a question like the following to clear your mind of faulty thinking.

What you said is this…“I believe that may be considered homophobic…can you explain to me why I should not conclude this”?..

 

[CopticChristian]

it is only the catholics who believe that masturbation is a mortal sin; so all other people(S) are destined for hell?
scientifically it is proved that mast…is a harmless exercise and giving it the label of ‘mortal’ causes much confusion amongst the teenagers esp. boys and make them guilty of a grave sin, which it may not be.
in this context, we may recall that the clergy is guilty of the worst kind of sin, that of using their authority to molest children and lead them astray, and it appears that they are well SHIELDED!

Jesus himself had warned these elders against misleading innocent children and leading them astray…

Wise,

It would be most wise of you to understand that as a Catholic, Mortal sin is peculiar to being Catholic. Protestants do not accept Mortal or venial sin. The world at large does not accept sin. Newsflash. Mortal sin is a Catholic teaching.

 

[CopticChristian]

Does it matter?..deep calls unto deep…and truth stands on its own.

Tsk,Tsk, Tsk,

Of course it matters to those that want the truth to be told. If you had confidence then you would tout the name, provide the source, unless perhaps there is none and what you say is taken out of context.

Bart Brewer was a priest and if he said it, I would doubt it.

 

[Peter_Plato]

What can philosophy prove? Just give me one example of something proven philosophically.

Every scientific proof relies on the application of rules of logic to arrive at conclusions that can be derived from the evidence (this is what philosophy is). So every scientific claim is at its core a philosophical one. Where do you want to start?

Example:
Premise 1: Mammals are a class of animals that are warm-blooded, fur bearing and feed their young with milk from mammary glands on the female.
Premise 2: Cats are warm-blooded, fur bearing and feed their young with milk from mammary glands on the female.

Conclusion: Cats are mammals.

That is a scientific claim that can only be true if it is philosophically viable.

My point in post 116 was to show that your bold assertion that philosophy can prove nothing is itself philosophically testable. In reality, what you are saying is that strong premises in conjunction with the rules of logic can, in your opinion, prove nothing. Therefore, you are claiming that it is your opinion alone that is the arbiter of truth, regardless of what strong premises and the application of the rules of logic lead us to conclude. It is you that override the process of philosophy and rules of logic. If YOU believe it, it is true, if YOU don’t it is false.

Your stated claim is that your opinion overrules philosophy because philosophy (strong premises coupled with the rules of logic) proves nothing to you. Which is ironic because in itself that is a philosophical statement, i.e., you are making a philosophical claim that your opinion is more accurate and truth revealing than philosophically derived claims using strong premises and rules of logic.

On what basis then - without using strong premises and rules of logic - can you prove that your opinion is more “truthful” than claims using strong premises and logic (philosophy)? :hypno:

 

[Marc_Anthony]

it is only the catholics who believe that masturbation is a mortal sin; so all other people(S) are destined for hell?

Well, if people don’t realize it’s a mortal sin, they lack full knowledge, which would make it venial. Or because a human’s sexual impulse is a strong one they may lack full consent of will, also making the sin venial. Not my job to know.

scientifically it is proved that mast…is a harmless exercise and giving it the label of ‘mortal’ causes much confusion amongst the teenagers esp. boys and make them guilty of a grave sin, which it may not be.

1. Sure, masturbation is normally physically harmless, but it’s a disordered use of our sexual organs, which is a perversion of true sex, making masturbation a sin.
2. You’re right, a lot of teenage boys might not be guilty of mortal sin if they masturbate. I don’t know their knowledge or consent of will.
3. I am a teenage boy (18), I know masturbation is a mortal sin. I am not “confused”. Yes, I do masturbate sometimes. Yes, I believe I am sinning when I do it and need to go to confession. Is my sin mortal? I don’t know if my consent of will is full, so I’m not sure, but I’m not risking it.

Trust me, knowing this information has not hindered me mentally or physically in any way. I am not harboring deep hidden feelings of guilt and I am not “sexually confused”. Teenage boys aren’t idiots.

in this context, we may recall that the clergy is guilty of the worst kind of sin, that of using their authority to molest children and lead them astray, and it appears that they are well SHIELDED!

Irrelevant. We weren’t talking about the clergy.

Jesus himself had warned these elders against misleading innocent children and leading them astray…

Irrelevant. We weren’t talking about the clergy.

Actually, this whole little digression is irrelevant, so let’s get back to the topic at hand, shall we?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

So you are saying that natural law is objectively true, even though it was used to defend slavery. What I am saying is that just like any other moral system it can be twisted and turned to defend some things that are obviously not moral.

Seriously, I think you’re misrepresenting me intentionally now.

 

[Zosimus41]

Well that is just your opinion that God’s word is an abomination. And if you are going to use language from Leviticus you should make sure to stone kids that aren’t obedient and not wear clothes with more than one type of fabric, right?

I have no need to defend God’s word. What I have stated is true. If you have a problem with the bible perhaps you need to have a talk with the authur.

Simply by your comment seems you need it.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I don’t know if there is an objective standard of ethics or morality. I do think that a good mind and good heart can be used to figure out what is best in each situation.

Got it, define a “good mind” and a “good heart”.

Sometimes lying is bad, sometimes it is the right thing to do. There are very few actions that are wrong all of the time (rape being one that I can’t imagine ever being moral).

Unsubstantiated statement.

You talk about how any system of morals can be “twisted”. But don’t you realize that this has nothing to do with the system itself? Stop playing around here. Actually learn about natural law. Saint Thomas makes a great argument for it in the Summa Theologica.

At any rate:

1. Show me one time when somebody actually took an argument and, using natural law theory, tried to prove that slavery was moral (REAL natural law theory as argued by Thomas Aquinas; if you don’t know what that is, look it up.
2. If anybody DID try and use natural law theory to defend slavery it was probably because of a scientific problem. Blacks (as one example) were thought of as subhuman. But biologically we know this not to be the case now, and now we have no excuse for believing that black people aren’t “rational” except for blind prejudice.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

With the Old Covenant overturned, we must now only abide by:

1. What is demanded of us by Jesus in the New Testament and,
2. What we know to be right and wrong due to natural law theory.

Homosexual sex is not wrong because of Leviticus. It can be proven to be wrong because of natural law theory.

 

[Rhuarc]

In this world emotions are very very cheap. The fact is homosexuality is a sin, no matter how joyous it is to live with a spouse of the same gender. We are to use our minds in the most objective manner possible. You wouldn’t want someone to vote with their emotions or drive with them or eat with them. There is a time for everything as it says in the good book we need to learn when the time is for emotions.

 

[livingwordunity]

Alcoholics are real people, too, with real problems. But giving them more alcohol would only make their problem worse.

 

[april32010]

Does it matter?..deep calls unto deep…and truth stands on its own.

oh,sorry you obviously are a person of great depth and wisdom.

 

[april32010]

I doubt this was ever a matter of win or lose anyway! This from a highly revered Catholic priest and teacher (This level of consciousness looks like a “win” to me!)

A true spirituality necessarily is going to be involved with the issues of the world, with the issues of society, of the poor, of politics. When you cut off the human issues, the issues of suffering and society, in fact, you have cut off the soul. Human issues hold the key to your own shadow, what you are afraid of, what you deny, and what you hate. The marginalized, those of other races, religions, ideologies, and gender usually hold a gift for us. That’s why homosexuality is threatening to people. In many ways it is the last taboo.

In the homosexual person we have the image of the masculine and the feminine put together in one person. That’s why we are terribly afraid of gays and lesbians. They are the image of what we all need to integrate, the contrasexual. We’ve all got to put the masculine and feminine together within ourselves. We are so terrified by that wholeness, that those that represent it are hated in most cultures based on domination and patriarchy

 

[april32010]

I doubt this was ever a matter of win or lose anyway! This from a highly revered Catholic priest and teacher (This level of consciousness looks like a “win” to me!)

A true spirituality necessarily is going to be involved with the issues of the world, with the issues of society, of the poor, of politics. When you cut off the human issues, the issues of suffering and society, in fact, you have cut off the soul. Human issues hold the key to your own shadow, what you are afraid of, what you deny, and what you hate. The marginalized, those of other races, religions, ideologies, and gender usually hold a gift for us. That’s why homosexuality is threatening to people. In many ways it is the last taboo.

In the homosexual person we have the image of the masculine and the feminine put together in one person. That’s why we are terribly afraid of gays and lesbians. They are the image of what we all need to integrate, the contrasexual. We’ve all got to put the masculine and feminine together within ourselves. We are so terrified by that wholeness, that those that represent it are hated in most cultures based on domination andIpatriarchy.

where exactly is this "priest" revered.everything he says is new age vodoo and mumbo jumbo