Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

[Seeker1961]

The Church opposes all sin. The homosexuality issues are talked about because they are constantly in the media, news, and all else.

As are divorced people, people living together without benefit of marriage, people having children out of wedlock…yet we do not hear the Church or her members speaking constantly on those issues.

The best argument is always the total argument.

 

[Havard]

As are divorced people, people living together without benefit of marriage, people having children out of wedlock…yet we do not hear the Church or her members speaking constantly on those issues.

The best argument is always the total argument.

You hear more about homosexuality because of all the recent attempts to redefine marriage. The Church has been consistent about opposing all of the above.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As are divorced people, people living together without benefit of marriage, people having children out of wedlock…yet we do not hear the Church or her members speaking constantly on those issues.

The best argument is always the total argument.

We don’t, or you don’t? meaning are you only acting on what you have seen or heard in your experience, home town, Googled a hit or two in a random time frame on the internet, etc?

The Church has been speaking on those issues since day 1, and continues to do so.

When you are dealing with any kind of media, you are going to be dealing with an agenda. Remember, there are a lot more ‘stories’ out there that you DON’T see and hear about, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist or have an effect on a lot of people.

Another point: Suppose we are at a place where the Church has been speaking on all the topics, and say the divorced people have stopped yammering on one particular day that they are justified, the people living out of wedlock for that day are not making a point of being in your face offensive. . .BUT there has been a huge media surge of 'Gay pride" and emotional You Tube videos.

The Church, ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY, has the opportunity to speak.

What issue do you think will get the PRINCIPLE address? The one that is, at that moment, causing the most confusion and doubt. Because let’s face it, if your local priest, parish bulletin, diocesean newspaper, Catholic blog, or site gave ‘equal time’ to what a lot of people are doing ‘badly’, VERY FEW would read because the list would be so long! Those who did read would get tired, anxious, depressed, confused, even MORE SO than when ONE teaching is offered.

Don’t be so quick to assume that the Church is a ‘one-issue’ institution.

 

[Publisher]

As are divorced people, people living together without benefit of marriage, people having children out of wedlock…yet we do not hear the Church or her members speaking constantly on those issues.

The best argument is always the total argument.

Yes indeed…those gay and lesbian people who want to get married are quite small in number indeed to the other “sins” “we” so easily keep quiet over…but then…we keep quiet for similar reasons as the OP brought up…we see our brothers, sisters, moms, dads, children, friends in those who live together without benefit of marriage…or children out of wedlock…or divorced and remarried people…large numbers…people we know and love and accept as “our own”…it’s easier to see gay and lesbian people as “other”…and that is why gay and lesbian people see themselves as “attacked” and singled out…there are plenty of other “targets” out there right in our own back yards…but for the most part…they are left “untouched”.

 

[Havard]

Yes indeed…those gay and lesbian people who want to get married are quite small in number indeed to the other “sins” “we” so easily keep quiet over…but then…we keep quiet for similar reasons as the OP brought up…we see our brothers, sisters, moms, dads, children, friends in those who live together without benefit of marriage…or children out of wedlock…or divorced and remarried people…large numbers…people we know and love and accept as “our own”…it’s easier to see gay and lesbian people as “other”…and that is why gay and lesbian people see themselves as “attacked” and singled out…there are plenty of other “targets” out there right in our own back yards…but for the most part…they are left “untouched”.

It’s easy to lob out that insinuation, but where’s the evidence the Catholic Church does any such thing?

 

[Publisher]

It’s easy to lob out that insinuation, but where’s the evidence the Catholic Church does any such thing?

It’s also easy to deny the “insinuation” when we just don’t listen to the cries of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

 

[fix]

As are divorced people, people living together without benefit of marriage, people having children out of wedlock…yet we do not hear the Church or her members speaking constantly on those issues.

The best argument is always the total argument.

We should, the problem is those have been accepted by too many. Homosexual acts used to be never spoken of, now they are also being accepted by too many.

The problem is not too much defense of Catholic teaching. The problem is that normalization of homosexual acts are being forced on so many, escpecially children, that people need to speak up about it.

I do not buy the argument that every time there is a defense of Church teaching on this topic that we must list every possible sexual sin. First, not all grave sins are equal despite the American worship of equality. There is a tendency to place equality as the greatest virtue.

Also, to claim that these other sins must get “equal time” is to misdirect the argument.

 

[Seeker1961]

Yes indeed…those gay and lesbian people who want to get married are quite small in number indeed to the other “sins” “we” so easily keep quiet over…but then…we keep quiet for similar reasons as the OP brought up…we see our brothers, sisters, moms, dads, children, friends in those who live together without benefit of marriage…or children out of wedlock…or divorced and remarried people…large numbers…people we know and love and accept as “our own”…it’s easier to see gay and lesbian people as “other”…and that is why gay and lesbian people see themselves as “attacked” and singled out…there are plenty of other “targets” out there right in our own back yards…but for the most part…they are left “untouched”.

It’s really easy to pick out a sin that you have ZERO inclination to commit and make it the worst sin ever and condemn it with your every breath. It’s a lot harder when you have to condemn a sin that might be a little closer to home. This way there is always “that person” who is infinitely worse than you, and all your sins can look smaller by comparison.

It’s like the child who misbehaves and quickly finds something that his sibling did to point out to Mom and Dad so that he looks better in comparison.

“See God! I’m not so bad! Sure, I sin, but I’m not one of those gay people!!”

 

[fix]

Yes indeed…those gay and lesbian people who want to get married are quite small in number indeed to the other “sins” “we” so easily keep quiet over…but then…we keep quiet for similar reasons as the OP brought up…we see our brothers, sisters, moms, dads, children, friends in those who live together without benefit of marriage…or children out of wedlock…or divorced and remarried people…large numbers…people we know and love and accept as “our own”…it’s easier to see gay and lesbian people as “other”…and that is why gay and lesbian people see themselves as “attacked” and singled out…there are plenty of other “targets” out there right in our own back yards…but for the most part…they are left “untouched”.

This is the misdirection I mentioned. What do these other sins have to do with the immorality of same sex marriage? When we talk about a particular issue we make an argument about that issue, not drag in other things so that others do not feel picked on.

See, this is the defense they use. They make it a worse sin not to mention every single sin as “equal” than to mention the immorality of SSM. It is not much of an argument, but it appeals to those with a mind-set that mistakenly views perceived inequality as the highest crime in our culture.

 

[fix]

It’s really easy to pick out a sin that you have ZERO inclination to commit and make it the worst sin ever and condemn it with your every breath. It’s a lot harder when you have to condemn a sin that might be a little closer to home. This way there is always “that person” who is infinitely worse than you, and all your sins can look smaller by comparison.

It’s like the child who misbehaves and quickly finds something that his sibling did to point out to Mom and Dad so that he looks better in comparison.

“See God! I’m not so bad! Sure, I sin, but I’m not one of those gay people!!”

This is the homosexual apologist defense. Why not address the issue instead of this misdirection?

 

[Havard]

It’s also easy to deny the “insinuation” when we just don’t listen to the cries of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

If it’s troubling you, perhaps it’s something you should work on and pray about. But please don’t point the finger at others.

 

[fix]

We don’t, or you don’t? meaning are you only acting on what you have seen or heard in your experience, home town, Googled a hit or two in a random time frame on the internet, etc?

The Church has been speaking on those issues since day 1, and continues to do so.

When you are dealing with any kind of media, you are going to be dealing with an agenda. Remember, there are a lot more ‘stories’ out there that you DON’T see and hear about, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist or have an effect on a lot of people.

Another point: Suppose we are at a place where the Church has been speaking on all the topics, and say the divorced people have stopped yammering on one particular day that they are justified, the people living out of wedlock for that day are not making a point of being in your face offensive. . .BUT there has been a huge media surge of 'Gay pride" and emotional You Tube videos.

The Church, ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY, has the opportunity to speak.

What issue do you think will get the PRINCIPLE address? The one that is, at that moment, causing the most confusion and doubt. Because let’s face it, if your local priest, parish bulletin, diocesean newspaper, Catholic blog, or site gave ‘equal time’ to what a lot of people are doing ‘badly’, VERY FEW would read because the list would be so long! Those who did read would get tired, anxious, depressed, confused, even MORE SO than when ONE teaching is offered.

Don’t be so quick to assume that the Church is a ‘one-issue’ institution.

There are a huge number of threads on contraception as one example. How often to the contraceptionists argue that we should not talk about contraception without mentioning fornication and same sex acts?

 

[wisedom]

i have to state that in GOD’S presence all are welcome, whether homosexual or heterosexual…so why should it not be so amongst men…
JUDGE NOT THAT YOU MAY NOT BE JUDGED -THE BIBLE

 

[Publisher]

If it’s troubling you, perhaps it’s something you should work on and pray about. But please don’t point the finger at others.

It is troubling to me as I see the pain and suffering of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters…why do you think I post? I am “working” on it…I pray about it daily…“the lady doeth protest too much methinks” came to mind at the “pointing finger” comment however.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Hearts are changing every day. With so many people coming out and being more visible more people are seeing the real harm that is caused to people by discrimination. Avowed homophobes are reconsidering their positions as their siblings, children, or friends come out.

Even if it takes a few decades for full equality, the climate is changing and it will happen.

Would you stop calling people who oppose homosexual actions “homophobes” as if they are afraid of the people. Its crazy. I oppose people doing heroin–are you going to call me a hero(name removed by moderator)hobe? It is possible to be against something, to believe something is wrong, without being afraid of it–why is that so hard to understand? Many here present rational arguments as to why they believe the behavior is wrong–you don’t have to agree with the position–but you should at least have the honesty to acknowledge their position is based on a consistent and rational argument (even if you don’t buy it) and that they don’t fear homosexuals. Yes rather than argue for your position lets just call anyone who disgrees with you a “homophobe”. I have relatives who have come out as lesbian–and whom I love dearly–doesn’t mean I think they should embrace the lifestyle–oh wait I guess that means I am afraid of them. Give me a break.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Hold on here a moment. I am going to rant.

I am against gay marriage. A lot of my friends are against gay marriage. I believe in a gay agenda.

I have never, once, met a homophobe.

Do you know what a phobia IS? It’s an extreme or irrational aversion to something. I have gay cousins. I have a gay Aunt. I have several gay aquaintences (I just don’t know them well).

I am not afraid of them. None of my friends are afraid of them. None of them will recoil when confronted with a gay person. Not a single one of us.

Even the Westboro Baptist Church, from videoes I’ve seen, are not afraid of gay people and are not averse to meeting them. Gays come up to them all the time.

Are there anti-gay bigots? Yes. A lot of them. But there are very few homophobes. A phobia is a diagnosable mental illness. Calling somebody a homophobe makes about as much sense as calling a racist against black people a “blackophobe”.

/End Rant

 

[Marc_Anthony]

This is the misdirection I mentioned. What do these other sins have to do with the immorality of same sex marriage? When we talk about a particular issue we make an argument about that issue, not drag in other things so that others do not feel picked on.

See, this is the defense they use. They make it a worse sin not to mention every single sin as “equal” than to mention the immorality of SSM. It is not much of an argument, but it appeals to those with a mind-set that mistakenly views perceived inequality as the highest crime in our culture.

 

[JimG]

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It’s a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.

Well, that’s true. People are not inclined to condemn individuals and relatives even if they disapprove of their actions. In the real world adulterers and fornicators also have real feelings and real lives and love each other. Those who love them are inclined to dismiss their actions as personal idiosyncrasies. Parents might dislike the fact that their daughter is shacking up with her boyfriend, but they don’t want to hurt her. This is why she might be wise to seek a more objective source of advice.

 

[Seeker1961]

This is the homosexual apologist defense. Why not address the issue instead of this misdirection?

I could ask you the same question. Why not address the issue of what has happened to marriage in America in it’s totality instead of picking out one aspect to hammer on?

The total argument is stronger, but it might offend someone we know, someone who donates a lot of money, or it might hit a little close to home for us personally. Much easier and safer to stay with the tiny segment of the population that isn’t even interested in being a part of our Church.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I could ask you the same question. Why not address the issue of what has happened to marriage in America in it’s totality instead of picking out one aspect to hammer on?

The total argument is stronger, but it might offend someone we know, someone who donates a lot of money, or it might hit a little close to home for us personally. Much easier and safer to stay with the tiny segment of the population that isn’t even interested in being a part of our Church.

We DO. Read all of the threads on contraception. We address other issues ALL THE TIME.

EDIT: Not to mention masturbation. I believe masturbation is a sin. Even a mortal sin. I’ll even argue that it is. But do you really think I don’t struggle with it? That I don’t comit it?