Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

[Havard]

It is troubling to me as I see the pain and suffering of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters…why do you think I post? I am “working” on it…I pray about it daily…

Glad to hear. But regarding your posts, since you probably know quite a bit about the Catholic position by now, the nature of your posts is very confusing. The Catechism is clear on homosexuality, and we Catholics believe it is compassionate. Are you saying Catholics don’t follow the Catechism, or are you saying that what the Catechism teaches about homosexuality isn’t compassionate?

“the lady doeth protest too much methinks” came to mind at the “pointing finger” comment however.

Whatever.

 

[Seeker1961]

We DO. Read all of the threads on contraception. We address other issues ALL THE TIME.

EDIT: Not to mention masturbation. I believe masturbation is a sin. Even a mortal sin. I’ll even argue that it is. But do you really think I don’t struggle with it? That I don’t comit it?

Ok, I’ll give you that this forum discusses other issues.

Can you provide such evidence from any point prior to the recent HHS discussion where any issue OTHER than gay marriage was discussed by Christians in public media? Apart from January 22nd, where the focus in abortion-the only sound I’ve heard from Christians in the last 10 years is about the evil of gay marriage.

Gay people know ONE thing for sure about Christians-they are against gay marriage. Sadly, that’s all most of them know.

 

[Publisher]

Ok, I’ll give you that this forum discusses other issues.

Can you provide such evidence from any point prior to the recent HHS discussion where any issue OTHER than gay marriage was discussed by Christians in public media? Apart from January 22nd, where the focus in abortion-the only sound I’ve heard from Christians in the last 10 years is about the evil of gay marriage.

Gay people know ONE thing for sure about Christians-they are against gay marriage.** Sadly, that’s all most of them know./**QUOTE]

Excellent point…and IMO…one that should be deeply and prayerfully considered with every discussion on same sex marriage.

 

[Havard]

Ok, I’ll give you that this forum discusses other issues.

Can you provide such evidence from any point prior to the recent HHS discussion where any issue OTHER than gay marriage was discussed by Christians in public media? Apart from January 22nd, where the focus in abortion-the only sound I’ve heard from Christians in the last 10 years is about the evil of gay marriage.

Gay people know ONE thing for sure about Christians-they are against gay marriage. Sadly, that’s all most of them know.

Like I said, gay marriage is being talked about because there are current discussions to change the laws on marriage.

Divorce has been legal since this country was founded. No-fault divorce has been around only 50 years, but Catholics made a huge stink about it when it was introduced. Likewise, fornication has been legal in the majority of states since their founding… Catholics still talk about abstinence all the time, but it’s not our fault that it’s not a major news item.

 

[Seeker1961]

Like I said, gay marriage is being talked about because there are current discussions to change the laws on marriage.

Divorce has been legal since this country was founded. No-fault divorce has been around only 50 years, but Catholics made a huge stink about it when it was introduced. Likewise, fornication has been legal in the majority of states since their founding… Catholics still talk about abstinence all the time, but it’s not our fault that it’s not a major news item.

Evidence?

I grew up in the late 60’s when divorce was growing in leaps and bounds. We were taught in my Catholic school to be sensitive to other children in our classes who might be coming from broken homes. We were taught to have compassion for those in such situations and never, ever to condemn them. We were never told they were evil or disordered. We were never told that divorced people were actively seeking to undermine the Church and had an “agenda” to destroy all that is good about American life. Yes, the Priest would say in his homily that the Church viewed divorce as wrong, but the language and approach were vastly different with divorce than what we hear about gay marriage today.

Now, talk about other marriage issues has all but vanished which in my opinion has made the Church’s argument weaker.

 

[Publisher]

Evidence?

I grew up in the late 60’s when divorce was growing in leaps and bounds. We were taught in my Catholic school to be sensitive to other children in our classes who might be coming from broken homes. We were taught to have compassion for those in such situations and never, ever to condemn them. We were never told they were evil or disordered. We were never told that divorced people were actively seeking to undermine the Church and had an “agenda” to destroy all that is good about American life. Yes, the Priest would say in his homily that the Church viewed divorce as wrong, but the language and approach were vastly different with divorce than what we hear about gay marriage today.

Now, talk about other marriage issues has all but vanished which in my opinion has made the Church’s argument weaker.

 

[pete_29]

God will never accept same sex marriage. Anyone who believes in God and is against same sex marriage has already won. At least, in this argument.

 

[Havard]

Evidence?

I grew up in the late 60’s when divorce was growing in leaps and bounds. We were taught in my Catholic school to be sensitive to other children in our classes who might be coming from broken homes. We were taught to have compassion for those in such situations and never, ever to condemn them. We were never told they were evil or disordered. We were never told that divorced people were actively seeking to undermine the Church and had an “agenda” to destroy all that is good about American life. Yes, the Priest would say in his homily that the Church viewed divorce as wrong, but the language and approach were vastly different with divorce than what we hear about gay marriage today.

Now, talk about other marriage issues has all but vanished which in my opinion has made the Church’s argument weaker.

The Church has always been consistent in loving the sinner, whether we’re talking about divorce or sodomy or anything else. What are you saying, that you have a problem with that?

As for evidence, if you’re accusing the wrongdoing, the burden of proof is on you. Where’s the evidence that the Church is condemning homosexual people (the individuals), calling them evil, etc., as opposed to condemning the gay lifestyle? Or is it guilty until proven innocent now?

 

[fix]

I could ask you the same question.

You could ask me that but it would not apply because I am addressing the issue. The issue is homosexual conduct and our culture. It is not about divorce or fornication.

Why not address the issue of what has happened to marriage in America in it’s totality instead of picking out one aspect to hammer on?

There is a time and a place to discuss that wide topic if you desire, but what we are facing is a total redefinition of marriage. Not just a deformation like divorce, but an entire reconfiguring of marriage and parenthood.

The total argument is stronger, but it might offend someone we know, someone who donates a lot of money, or it might hit a little close to home for us personally.

I doubt it. Those who know their faith, live their faith, and bind themself to the Church are not interested in covering over any sin especially serious sins under the 6th commandment.

Much easier and safer to stay with the tiny segment of the population that isn’t even interested in being a part of our Church.

That tiny segment wants to restructure society. That tiny segment has incredible influence in politics, the media, entertainment, and much more.

 

[He_Man]

I find is sad that groups of individuals thrust the legitimacy of same-sex relations in the public eye and press for laws to recognize that legitmacy, and when confronted by the other side, they then blame the other side for focusing on the issues they brought up themselves in the first place.

Weird.

It would seem to me that the reason the Church hasn’t taken a more public stand on say, pedophlia, is because there isn’t a large movement en masse to legitimize the behavior. I’d also expect the church to stand upm and publically decry pedophilia if such a movement occurred.

 

[interestedman]

God will never accept same sex marriage. Anyone who believes in God and is against same sex marriage has already won. At least, in this argument.

Already won what? It would be nice if God would just clarify some things for us though. Your God might not like same sex marriage, your neighbor’s God certainly might though, and your other neighbor’s God might hate certain minority groups.

Basically your opinion of God is no more valid (at least in argument) than anyone else’s…and that is because in reality there is no real evidence that any of these gods exist.

 

[interestedman]

I find is sad that groups of individuals thrust the legitimacy of same-sex relations in the public eye and press for laws to recognize that legitmacy, and when confronted by the other side, they then blame the other side for focusing on the issues they brought up themselves in the first place.

Weird.

It would seem to me that the reason the Church hasn’t taken a more public stand on say, pedophlia, is because there isn’t a large movement en masse to legitimize the behavior. I’d also expect the church to stand upm and publically decry pedophilia if such a movement occurred.

The difference between being against pedophilia and gay marriage is that pretty much everyone is against pedophilia no matter what their religious views are. A LARGE majority of people against gay marriage hold that view because of their religious views. If you have a moral view that your religion holds, and most people that don’t follow that religion disagree, you are probably wrong.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

The difference between being against pedophilia and gay marriage is that pretty much everyone is against pedophilia no matter what their religious views are. A LARGE majority of people against gay marriage hold that view because of their religious views. If you have a moral view that your religion holds, and most people that don’t follow that religion disagree, you are probably wrong.

Why is everyone against pedophilia? Where do people get their morals from if not from religion?

 

[tskrobacz]

Respectfully-speaking, I don’t think that priest ever met a Native American. I grew up with them. Believe me, it is a taboo!!

-Chris

Perhaps so in some modern tribes that have been influenced by modern media…certainly not all.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Ok, I’ll give you that this forum discusses other issues.

Can you provide such evidence from any point prior to the recent HHS discussion where any issue OTHER than gay marriage was discussed by Christians in public media? Apart from January 22nd, where the focus in abortion-the only sound I’ve heard from Christians in the last 10 years is about the evil of gay marriage.

How on Earth do you expect me to find evidence on this?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Why is everyone against pedophilia? Where do people get their morals from if not from religion?

Dangerous attitude-if you’re only against pedophilia because of religion then you’re not religious for the right reasons.

People know pedophilia is wrong due to natural law-you don’t need to be religious to see it.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Already won what? It would be nice if God would just clarify some things for us though. Your God might not like same sex marriage, your neighbor’s God certainly might though, and your other neighbor’s God might hate certain minority groups.

Basically your opinion of God is no more valid (at least in argument) than anyone else’s…and that is because in reality there is no real evidence that any of these gods exist.

Sure there’s a valid reason. St. Thomas proved that the God of classical theism exists.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

Dangerous attitude-if you’re only against pedophilia because of religion then you’re not religious for the right reasons.

People know pedophilia is wrong due to natural law-you don’t need to be religious to see it.

Not my attitude and i think youre missing the point im making.

If youre not religious, where do you get your morals from?

If you question everything, like what it actually means to be a man or woman, or everyone’s personal view of marriage being different etc, then why cant one use the same logic to pedophilia?

It is indeed a dangerous attitude to have, for those who wish to redefine everything.

PS- I might add that I disagree with your opinion on “being religious for the right reasons.” The Church doesnt say you have to necessarily agree with the rules, only that you have to obey them. You can be unhappy about no premarital sex, but that doesnt matter, so long as you dont engage in premarital sex. If religion is the only reason for certain persons not to commit immoral acts, thats just as good of a reason as any. In fact Id go as far as to say that religion being the only reason not to do something, can be a sign of deeper devotion than avoiding somethig because it just makes sense. Even atheists as you stated dont do certain things, just because it would make sense not to. But when one puts their own will aside and chooses God’s will purely because it is His will, then IMO that means even more.

 

[BellsMom]

I have never, once, met a homophobe.

Do you know what a phobia IS? It’s an extreme or irrational aversion to something…

I am not afraid of them. None of my friends are afraid of them. /End Rant

I’d like to comment on this.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"Definition of homophobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals "

“Definition of aversion - a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it”

I have read hundreds of posts here from Catholic’s regarding homosexuals which fit the definition of “aversion”. Its probably difficult to communicate love and acceptance to gays and lesbians when words like perversion, disordered, sinful, disgusting and child abuse are included in the dialog.

Given the definition of aversion and how it relates to the word homophobia, I have to admit that in my experience I would classify most of the people I know personally who are deeply opposed to gay marriage as “homophobes”.

 

[Havard]

I’d like to comment on this.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"Definition of homophobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals "

“Definition of aversion - a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it”

I have read hundreds of posts here from Catholic’s regarding homosexuals which fit the definition of “aversion”. Its probably difficult to communicate love and acceptance to gays and lesbians when words like perversion, disordered, sinful, disgusting and child abuse are included in the dialog.

Given the definition of aversion and how it relates to the word homophobia, I have to admit that in my experience I would classify most of the people I know personally who are deeply opposed to gay marriage as “homophobes”.

That feeling of repugnance is directed toward sinful actions, not homosexuality, which is an orientation.