Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

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Wisdom

All are welcome that “do the Will of God”…God welcomes the repentant sinner. We turn our back on God, God never turns His back on us. All are welcome to return.
“All are welcome that “do the Will of God”…God welcomes the repentant sinner. We turn our back on God, God never turns His back on us. All are welcome to return.” (IN INVERTED COMMAS!)
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So the will of God for each person has been communicated to you?..what if a homosexual person does the will of God for him much better than you do the WILL OF GOD for you?
God does not welcome the repentant sinner! He heals the sinner or even forgives them, and they repent!.. “let he amongst you who is without sin, cast the first stone”….by casting the first stone, you have the rare privilege of re-writing the BIBLE!
God goes in search of the sheep that is/are lost; they are welcome to cry out or not to….they are not allowed to return to Him, for he goes after them and finds them!..Yes, He goes after the 99 who are lost, leaving the 1 behind him!..in case you don’t know, Jesus came ‘to save the ninety-nine sinners who repent and not the one respectable person who does not need to repent’….you have the rare distinction of being that only One!
“……….for he is good to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful”
In conclusion, I need hardly highlight your RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HUMILITY!

“Do not judge others, and God will not judge you………….The measure you use for others is the one that God will use for you.”
 
Already won what? It would be nice if God would just clarify some things for us though. Your God might not like same sex marriage, your neighbor’s God certainly might though, and your other neighbor’s God might hate certain minority groups.

Basically your opinion of God is no more valid (at least in argument) than anyone else’s…and that is because in reality there is no real evidence that any of these gods exist.
Interested,

FYI…every Christian of whatever stripe reads a Bible and in that Bible we read from Paul…
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
This was written 2000 years ago. Now what you are proposing is more than one God that abrogates the prayer of Israel…from Deuterotomy…the Old Testament and this offends the Jewish Population…
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD!" (Deut. 6:4)
So now you have offended the Jew and the Christian that believes there is one God…true there are groups that believe in many gods and other gods. So the opinion of those that believe in one God is the preponderance of the world if you have not noticed. Check the website Adherence…

adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

You will see that those that believe in one God in the World consist of about 51% of the world population and the Hindu many gods about 14%, while those that have no religion…is about 16%.

So it appears that those that do not believe in one God is a minority and when you compare and contrast that with the Jewish journey, Israel…calling for one God to now…a small tribe in the Middle East…calling for one God…has caused the world to change to a majority that believe in one God…

In other words we are only in the second inning and it appears that the notion of one God is gaining momentum…and those that deny God are looking for a relief pitcher…not able to strike the hitter out…
 
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk…

“help me understand, what I don’t understand” Quote

no one can help you understand, when you just don’t understand or won’t…is it the other person’s fault that you don’t understand…anyway we have no duty to make you understand…
pl. stop being utterly foolish!
 
“All are welcome that “do the Will of God”…God welcomes the repentant sinner. We turn our back on God, God never turns His back on us. All are welcome to return.” (IN INVERTED COMMAS!)
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So the will of God for each person has been communicated to you?..what if a homosexual person does the will of God for him much better than you do the WILL OF GOD for you?
God does not welcome the repentant sinner! He heals the sinner or even forgives them, and they repent!.. “let he amongst you who is without sin, cast the first stone”….by casting the first stone, you have the rare privilege of re-writing the BIBLE!
God goes in search of the sheep that is/are lost; they are welcome to cry out or not to….they are not allowed to return to Him, for he goes after them and finds them!..Yes, He goes after the 99 who are lost, leaving the 1 behind him!..in case you don’t know, Jesus came ‘to save the ninety-nine sinners who repent and not the one respectable person who does not need to repent’….you have the rare distinction of being that only One!
“……….for he is good to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful”
In conclusion, I need hardly highlight your RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HUMILITY!

“Do not judge others, and God will not judge you………….The measure you use for others is the one that God will use for you.”
wisedom,

Your moniker says Catholic, you sound Protestant in your posting…I suggest you read

Veritatis Splendor

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html
 
CopticChristian;9667666:
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk…

“help me understand, what I don’t understand” Quote

no one can help you understand, when you just don’t understand or won’t…is it the other person’s fault that you don’t understand…anyway we have no duty to make you understand…
pl. stop being utterly foolish!
Wise one,

It is clear that you don’t understand. Understanding comes by asking questions and clarification. You don’t understand that. You suggest subborness “you just don’t understand or wont”. You don’t believe you have to clarify and you believe you are perfectly understood “we have no duty to make you understand”…, you have an element of narcissism and megalomania going on here…you generalize “we” …who is we?

Help me understand you.
 
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk,

You are unable to provide an answer to a simple question and then quote Jesus. You support homosexuality and as I recall Christianity is not in favor of homosexuality. You have to do better than this. Try giving an answer or your credibility will suffer.
CC…truth speaks for itself and is credible on it’s own merits. No need to make this discussion about me, personally, when millions (yes millions) of homosexuals are placed in moral peril and dilemma by the egregious position that so many in the Catholic church have take on this matter.

Christianity is in favor of unity and inclusion of all peoples as an expression of God’s love…it does not discriminate as you suggest. Instead, it asks what does someone that I perceive as standing opposed to my finite understanding have to teach me about a God that is infinitely knowable.
 
Already won what? It would be nice if God would just clarify some things for us though. Your God might not like same sex marriage, your neighbor’s God certainly might though, and your other neighbor’s God might hate certain minority groups.

Basically your opinion of God is no more valid (at least in argument) than anyone else’s…and that is because in reality there is no real evidence that any of these gods exist.
In case your intrested there is only one God, for all creation! How clear God makes things is up to you. And all them other gods do not exist. :rolleyes:
 
So the will of God for each person has been communicated to you?..what if a homosexual person does the will of God for him much better than you do the WILL OF GOD for you?
God does not welcome the repentant sinner! He heals the sinner or even forgives them, and they repent!.. “let he amongst you who is without sin, cast the first stone”….by casting the first stone, you have the rare privilege of re-writing the BIBLE!
The Bible does not approve of condemnation, but it does advocate the “admonishment” of sin.

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death … (James 5:19)

There is a difference between casting stones (condemning) and admonishing or pointing out that an act is harmful and potentially death-dealing in an eternal sense. The latter is diagnostic in the same sense that a doctor or health therapist informs you that a behaviour or lifestyle is contrary to good health. I guess you could answer an overweight doctor that he is being hypocritical and he should practice what he preaches, but that does not change the truth that overeating is unhealthy to you. :sad_yes:

See also:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=8158&cfid=36820235&cftoken=75597183
 
The Bible does not approve of condemnation, but it does advocate the “admonishment” of sin.

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death … (James 5:19)

There is a difference between casting stones (condemning) and admonishing or pointing out that an act is harmful and potentially death-dealing in an eternal sense… The latter is diagnostic…
Diagnostic? Please be very careful here. For another sinner to diagnose the state of the human soul is quite a far cry from a chubby doc telling you to lose a few pounds!
To me “…whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering…” refers to LOVINGLY welcoming ALL souls back to the fold, not by way of admonishment, but by example and by love!
Admonishment is a very slippery slope.
It might be appropriate in a parent/young child relationship, but it can so easily become a cudgel and a wedge where compassion should be.
For some it becomes a habitual way of communicating and a cloak to hide ego.
When this happens all meaningful communication stops and is transformed into a sharp verbal stone, and I’m seeing an awful lot of verbal “stoning” in the world today.
In fact, it has become the norm, and has infiltrated every part of our culture. Is respectful discourse dead?
God have mercy and help us to be good shepherds and kinder to one another!
 
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith. Where there is despair, hope. Where there is darkness, light. Where there is sadness, joy. O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console; to be understood, as to understand; to be loved, as to love. For it is in giving that we receive. It is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life. Amen.
 
Diagnostic? Please be very careful here. For another sinner to diagnose the state of the human soul is quite a far cry from a chubby doc telling you to lose a few pounds!
To me “…whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering…” refers to LOVINGLY welcoming ALL souls back to the fold, not by way of admonishment, but by example and by love!
Admonishment is a very slippery slope.
It might be appropriate in a parent/young child relationship, but it can so easily become a cudgel and a wedge where compassion should be.
For some it becomes a habitual way of communicating and a cloak to hide ego.
When this happens all meaningful communication stops and is transformed into a sharp verbal stone, and I’m seeing an awful lot of verbal “stoning” in the world today.
In fact, it has become the norm, and has infiltrated every part of our culture. Is respectful discourse dead?
God have mercy and help us to be good shepherds and kinder to one another!
You’re absolutely right that using admonishment as our default mode of addressing sinners is a dangerous thing to do.

But Jesus had no problems calling people sinners or hypocrites; he called the Pharisees hypocrites to their faces! Did Jesus have no interest in saving the Pharisees? Of course not! But the Pharisees were not going to be convinced by Jesus’s loving example; they needed a reality check, like the people in the Temple. And Paul admonished Peter about (I believe) his position on eating with gentiles.

There is definitely a time when admonishment is called for, but discretion must be used.

It’s also worth noting that in this thread we’re talking about a group of people as a whole; if I was dealing with individual people face to face what I would say and how I would say it would be very different.
 
CC…truth speaks for itself and is credible on it’s own merits. No need to make this discussion about me, personally, when millions (yes millions) of homosexuals are placed in moral peril and dilemma by the egregious position that so many in the Catholic church have take on this matter.
Christianity is in favor of unity and inclusion of all peoples as an expression of God’s love…it does not discriminate as you suggest. Instead, it asks what does someone that I perceive as standing opposed to my finite understanding have to teach me about a God that is infinitely knowable.
Tsk,

It is always about you. The Church has done nothing but take a stand that has been unchanged and will not change. You choose to behave as you behave and it is incongruent with revealed Truth and Church teaching. The peril is of your choosing.

The OHCAC is Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman East/West and all baptized in the trinitarian formula. If you believe that the Roman Church is harsh…see what you face with the Eastern Orthodox…

holy-trinity.org/morality/homosexuality.html
The Orthodox Church believes that homosexuality should be treated by society as an immoral and dangerous perversion and by religion as a sinful failure. In both cases, correction is called for. Homosexuals should be accorded the confidential medical and psychiatric facilities by which they can be helped to restore themselves to a self-respecting sexual identity that belongs to them by God’s ordinance.
In full confidentiality, the Orthodox Church cares and provides pastorally for homosexuals in the belief that no sinner who has failed himself and God should be allowed to deteriorate morally and spiritually.
Psychiatric restoration, without religious direction and reconciliation with God, is bound to prove short lived.
A healthy society and various religions do not recognize perversions. Rather, they work to restore the homosexual to the status of a self-esteemed individual and thus to a valued instrument of their own survival and wellbeing under God.
Your knowledge of the infinite comes by way of revealed truths and the Bible teaches that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church…the same Church that the Bible says is the means by which the manifold wisdom of God is known. Seek it. Find it. Stop protesting it with your wanting your behavior to be accepted. That will not happen.
 
Tsk,

It is always about you. The Church has done nothing but take a stand that has been unchanged and will not change. You choose to behave as you behave and it is incongruent with revealed Truth and Church teaching. The peril is of your choosing.

Your knowledge of the infinite comes by way of revealed truths and the Bible teaches that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church…the same Church that the Bible says is the means by which the manifold wisdom of God is known. Seek it. Find it. Stop protesting it with your wanting your behavior to be accepted. That will not happen.
I would say that my understanding is entirely congruent with the highest levels of consciousness and revealed Truth on this topic through notable Catholic theologians, mystics and scholars. I am perfectly clear and content with my understanding - an understanding that took me many years of prayer, reading and discussions to arrive at.

When we subjugate our values to words in the CCC, the Bible, or other church teachings without careful discernment and questioning we do nothing to love or defend the church… we have failed at Love’s work.
 
I would say that my understanding is entirely congruent with the highest levels of consciousness and revealed Truth on this topic through notable Catholic theologians, mystics and scholars. I am perfectly clear and content with my understanding - an understanding that took me many years of prayer, reading and discussions to arrive at.

When we subjugate our values to words in the CCC, the Bible, or other church teachings without careful discernment and questioning we do nothing to love or defend the church… we have failed at Love’s work.
Tsk,

This is Catholic Answers Forum. I am Catholic. I will do my best to try to inform you as to what Catholics believe. I am not good at this. There are others that do and have done it better.

Jesus was God/man…He left a deposit of Faith with the Apostles and that Faith is transmitted through the Church and is recorded in the Catechism of The Catholic Church based on Scripture and Tradition.

I would say to you what I would say to any Protestant that has a Bible and Scholarship. You can have a premise, you can have a point of view, you can believe it and it may make sense to you. What you may want to understand is that whatever you object to in the teachings of the Catholic Church or in the Cathechism is an objection to Christ or God. That is the best I can do.

No Scholar, no theologian is ever more mighty or knoweldgeable than God himself that provided the wisdom recorded in Church documents including the Catechism. This is about it.

**When we subjugate our values **

Values are important to you. Values can change. Values are formed. Some values are better than others and some serve purposes better than others and if you don’t have some values you can acquire them. You speak of we, and I assume you mean “when I subjugate”

Subjugate. This is something that you believe is being done to your values by an action. You are saying that to overpower or defeat our values is something that you have an issue with and then you say…

**to words in the CCC, the Bible, or other church teachings **

So that I must assume that you are saying that your values are not formed, are not in concert with and are not united in belief with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Bible or Church Teaching. All Catholics do not subjugate their values to any of this. Their values are formed by the Teachings of the Church, based on Tradtion and Scripture and what is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So you admit that your values are not obtained from the same source and you object to my values and the values of faithful Catholics. You are saying that your values are more important than God Himself because for me that is where the values that are provided come from.

**without careful discernment and questioning **

So you don’t want your values to be ordered or directed by God. You want to discern and you should. You want to question and should. The Catechism you do not want to subjugate your values to says so…you can see it here. Your conscience is not static, it is dynamic and should be constantly under surviellance for improvement.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm
II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE
1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.
1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.
we do nothing to love or defend the church

Here you make no sense. You say that your values are ever so much more important than what God wants you to know, including abiding by the teaching of the Church and then you conclude that by saying “my values are more important than what God wants and what His Church teaches”…you conclude that by not conceding "not my will…but your Will be done…that you are abandoning the love of God and defense of the Church. This is nonsense.

… we have failed at Love’s work

So by mainatining your values higher than what God wants and by using your created reason to discern not making any sense we fail at Love’s work. So then the question is for you to define…

What is Love’s work as you understand it?
 
We must be very kind and pray for those who have difficulty’s in complying with the intended finest for themselves. Mother nature wants to draw out the finest in everyone, and that means we need to pray for all and also set good examples in the joy of life.

Part of charity includes explaining which can alienate acceptance from the charitable one. No one can change another but its important to show and extend the properties of nature to our fellow human being’s.

Animals are not human beings and with that comes an entirely different immune system which works with the inability to reason things out.

The idea of gay is an evolutionary digressive in whole principal, becoming more animal by loss of clarity in “distinguishing contrast”, for full expression of unity & cooperation in the growing flow of nature.

It can’t be argued onto a flourish-value or normality of any kind …The argument would be, man goofs up and goofing up is expected and therefore normal. Thats as close as I think reason can be stretched using the word normal in the same sentence with this act.

A leaf falls into the water in the forest and the contrasting moisture hastens growth by nutrient decomposition and encourages the consequence of contrast allowing the forest itself.

Man was not meant, constructed or designed to fall into the water of another man, hence creation is halted by objection to contrast. The consequence is detached from the whole and consequently returns non-negotiable with all the known disorder in the act including ailments. CDC stats have been analyzed and it has been statistically remarked that this life, is as dangerous as injection drug use…so many prayers, kindness, is in the forefront for this issue. Peace.
 
Diagnostic? Please be very careful here. For another sinner to diagnose the state of the human soul is quite a far cry from a chubby doc telling you to lose a few pounds!
To me “…whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering…” refers to LOVINGLY welcoming ALL souls back to the fold, not by way of admonishment, but by example and by love!
Admonishment is a very slippery slope.
It might be appropriate in a parent/young child relationship, but it can so easily become a cudgel and a wedge where compassion should be.
For some it becomes a habitual way of communicating and a cloak to hide ego.
When this happens all meaningful communication stops and is transformed into a sharp verbal stone, and I’m seeing an awful lot of verbal “stoning” in the world today.
In fact, it has become the norm, and has infiltrated every part of our culture. Is respectful discourse dead?
God have mercy and help us to be good shepherds and kinder to one another!
Admonishment accepted! :tiphat:
 
Do you honestly think that the church itself is incapable of heresy?
The reason I asked what you meant by “church” is that Catholicism has a very, in some ways, specific meaning that is embedded in its hierarchy, teachings, ethics and theology that integrates all of these. The Church in this sense is “the Body of Christ” animated by the Holy Spirit to do the will of the Father. By definition, if the Body (the Church) is the “Body” of Christ, it is animated by the Holy Spirit and does the will of the Father, just as Christ did on Earth. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ( John 6:38) Ipso facto Christ’s current Body (the Church) is to do the will of the Father and not impose our own on the Father.

That by no means implies that any particular Catholic, not even the Pope in personal matters, is protected from error. It is, after all, made up of sinners on the way to becoming saints, but it does mean that the decisions and actions of individuals in the Church who allow themselves to be animated by the Holy Spirit are doing the will of the Father. It also means that there is a guarantee (the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) that God will protect the Church from imparting to the faithful any errors with regard to faith and morals.

Just like a human body, there is a “hierarchical” order and function within the Body of Christ. The foot does not function well as the brain, nor the heart as a stomach.

The “head” of the Body of Christ is the magisterium (Pope and Bishops) or “teaching office” that functions in a sense as the “brain” to a natural body, and relates to other members of the body how they need to act, but the animating spirit is the Holy Spirit that keeps the “brain” from error where faith and morals, though not necessarily practical matters, are concerned. This is because the eternal life of each individual human being hangs in the balance. The Truth, Who is Christ must still be embodied somewhere on Earth, for the Gospel message to be fulfilled. The Kingdom of God is the Church functioning as the Body of Christ. Christ’s kingship (the promises from the Old Testament) is fulfilled in the Church. Viva Cristo Rey!

Where I find myself disagreeing with a doctrine of the Church, I can rest assured that it would be wise of me to pursue a better understanding of what the Church teaches and why, rather than thinking my position to be more enlightened.

“He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects you rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me” (Luke 10: 16)

The reason both faith and morals are matters of concern is because ethics is the “tuning” of our relationships with each other to God’s will and faith is a tuning (getting into order) of our relationship to God. Both of these are done on God’s terms, not on ours. He is the Creator we are creatures. His will for our good is infinitely better than our meager thoughts can come up with.
It is these together that complete and fulfill us as human beings. :egyptian:
 
Tsk,

What you may want to understand is that whatever you object to in the teachings of the Catholic Church or in the Cathechism is an objection to Christ or God. That is the best I can do.
We have such a strong need, as humans, to have an absolute authority on earth so that we ourselves do not have to do the work of discerning the will of God for our life. It is so much easier to simply delegate it and simply believe that if I do as I am told by this church or that I will be “right” 100% of the time. This is 1st half of life, tribal religious thinking. While it is important for formation, later in life it can become dangerous and is, no doubt, the cause of many wars and the untold violence many “religious” reap upon their brother or sister.
So that I must assume that you are saying that your values are not formed, are not in concert with and are not united in belief with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Bible or Church Teaching. All Catholics do not subjugate their values to any of this. Their values are formed by the Teachings of the Church, based on Tradtion and Scripture and what is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So you admit that your values are not obtained from the same source and you object to my values and the values of faithful Catholics. You are saying that your values are more important than God Himself because for me that is where the values that are provided come from.
My personal values are indeed formed largely from my Catholic upbringing and studies and from careful prayer and discernment of God’s will for my life. Values cannot be more important than “God Himself” as it is through him and with him (not the institutional church) that we move and live and have our being.
Here you make no sense. You say that your values are ever so much more important than what God wants you to know, including abiding by the teaching of the Church and then you conclude that by saying “my values are more important than what God wants and what His Church teaches”…you conclude that by not conceding "not my will…but your Will be done…that you are abandoning the love of God and defense of the Church. This is nonsense.
When did I say “my values are more important than God wants me to know”…this is you,CC, asserting that the only way to approach God is to remain 100% in concert with the institutional Catholic church which is clearly not true. While the church provides a path to higher consciousness many have achieved enlightenment (Ghandi, MLK, Dali Lama, etc) through alternate paths…our God is not so limited. In fact the most enlightened of our day (eg. Catholic Thomas Merton), taught eastern philosophies and ideas born in Buddhism and other traditions to enrich the Christian journey. He did not have such a narrow point of view.
What is Love’s work as you understand it?
Simply, to learn how not to be right in ways that make others wrong.
 
No I don’t. But if you quote passages of Leviticus to defend your position, you shouldn’t be able to pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that still apply.
That goes back to my point. It is not picking and choosing but understanding Scripture properly.
 
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