Why celebrate Christmas

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=Hisalone;599007

The magi saw the star and traveled from Babylon to Bethlehem how long did that take?

This is what scriptures says:Matt 2:11After coming into the house they saw the Child with (I)Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and (J)worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Note nothing about a manger.

Luke chapter 2:

16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph,** and the baby**, who was lying in the manger.

17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,

**Here we see 2 words with the same meaning: baby & child. **

@ poster:

Have you not heard a new mother refer to her **newborn **as a child? I have!

Many times “new” parents state that they are having their “first child”.

Or… they’ll say… “we are going to wait a few years before we have our first child”.

 

[rovimax]

graceandglory;5987902:

Yes another reason why tradition is so unreliable.

2Thes 2:15 KJV.

In Acts 20:35 St. Paul said that Jesus said "…there is more happiness in giving than in receiving."I never read that in the Gospels. Where did Paul get that? Maybe “TRADITION!!!” :yup:

 

[latin_rite]

The sheep were in the fields when Christ was born.
Sheep are not in the fields that time of year in and around Jerusalem.

Do you celebrate any of your family members birthday on any day other than their actual birthday.

I’ve often when faced with this Question ask myself. "where were the sheep? were they on holiday, did the shepards take a holiday too. May be the wolves took a break as well? Perhaps the sheep migrated south for the winter? Being winter. Wouldn’t the shepards need to be extra watchful of their sheep as the predators “wild” food supply would be more scarce so they might go looking for a more easy target? Now if the Bible said the shepards were high in the hills or mountains, then i might think it would be around spring time as they might take the sheep there for the fresh spring grass. And as far as dec 25th being a pagans god bday. Thats a pretty thin argument against having christmas on the 25th. Look how many pagan religions there are. I don’t think it would matter what day they held it on, it still would have fell around some pagans “holy” day. The early fathers were in a lose/lose situation. No matter what day they held it on. They were still going to have people whining on the interwebs about Jesus stealing their day 2,000 yrs later

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

The sheep were in the fields when Christ was born.
Sheep are not in the fields that time of year in and around Jerusalem…

Where are they? In a giant sheep garage?

 

[Hisalone]

Luke chapter 2:

16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph,** and the baby**, who was lying in the manger.

17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,

**Here we see 2 words with the same meaning: baby & child. **

@ poster:

Have you not heard a new mother refer to her **newborn **as a child? I have!

Many times “new” parents state that they are having their “first child”.

Or… they’ll say… “we are going to wait a few years before we have our first child”.

Luke 2 is talking about the shepherds Matt 2 is talking about the Magi.
Did they visit at the same time?

 

[Hisalone]

We are his people that’s why we have a litturgical calendar and a civil calendar. Aren’t you using the same calendar, the one the Catholics use??? :extrahappy:

If I did I would think that Jesus’ birth was on December 25th

 

[Hisalone]

Where are they? In a giant sheep garage?

You are close it was a giant airplane hanger.

 

[Hisalone]

There is additional proof that Jesus was born in the fall of the year. The census of Quirinius that required Joseph to travel from Galilee to Bethlehem would most probably have taken place after the fall harvest when people were more able to return to their ancestral homes (Luke 2:1-5). Besides, it was customary in Judea to do their tax collecting during this period, as the bulk of a farmer’s income came at this time.

Another point is that Joseph and Mary had to find shelter in a barn or some other kind of animal shelter like a cave or grotto because the inns were full (verse 7). This indicates that the pilgrims from around the world had begun to arrive in Jerusalem and surrounding towns. Thus, the fall festival season had already commenced. There would have been no similar influx of pilgrims in December.

Also, as the shepherds were still in the fields with their flocks (verse 8), Jesus’ birth could not have occurred during the cold-weather months of winter. Sheep were normally brought into centrally located pens or corrals as the weather turned colder and the rainy season began, especially at night. If this were not significant, it begs the question, “Why would Luke have mentioned it in such detail if not to convey a time reference?”

Notice what commentator Adam Clarke writes regarding this:

It was a custom among the Jews to send out their sheep to the deserts [wilderness], about the passover [sic], and bring them home at the commencement of the first rain: during the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As the passover [sic] occurred in the spring, and the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November, we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole of the summer. And as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which casts considerable light on this disputed point. (Clarke’s Commentary, vol. V, p. 370)

 

[Hisalone]

The Birth of Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus was conceived six months after John the Baptist, and we have established a likely date for John’s birth, we need only move six months farther down the Jewish calender to arrive at a likely date for the birth of Jesus. From the 15th day of the 1st month, Nisan, we go to the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri. And what do we find on that date? It is the festival of Tabernacles! The 15th day of Tishri begins the third and last festival of the year to which all the men of Israel were to gather in Jerusalem for Temple services. (Lev 23:34)

Immanuel.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel means “God with us”. The Son of God had come to dwell with, or tabernacle on earth with His people.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word in the Hebrew for dwelt is succah and the name of the Feast of Tabernacles in Hebrew is Sukkot, a festival of rejoicing and celebration:

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luke 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luke 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Why was there no room at the inn? Bethlehem is only about 5 miles from Jerusalem, and all the men of Israel had come to attend the festival of Tabernacles as required by the law of Moses. Every room for miles around Jerusalem would have been already taken by pilgrims, so all that Mary and Joseph could find for shelter was a stable.

Also of note is the fact that the Feast of Tabernacles is an eight day feast (Lev 23:36, 39). Why eight days? It may be because an infant was dedicated to God by performing circumcision on the eighth day after birth:

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

So the infant Jesus would have been circumcised on the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, a Sabbath day. The Jews today consider this a separate festival from Tabernacles, and they call it Shemini Atzeret.

hol.com/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm

 

[jakasaki]

Luke 2 is talking about the shepherds Matt 2 is talking about the Magi.
Did they visit at the same time?

My post has to do with the word “child” as you posted Matthew 2.11 and one of your arguments in a previous post was that when the Magi visited Christ, Jesus was a child.

This is what scriptures says:Matt 2:11After coming into the house they saw the **Child **with (I)Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and (J)worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

In the Luke passage, I was showing you back to back verses where one like states **baby **and the second line refers to Jesus as a child.

They both mean the same thing!

As far as the Magi goes from Matthew 2.11 ~ Jesus was still a baby

Who is to say that when the people moved out of the “inns” and “houses” that Mother Mary didn’t move OUT from the manger to a house. She probably did. I do not see a discrepancy.

So, by the time the Magi got to Baby Jesus, Mother Mary could have been in “a house”.

You are looking for a play by play, movement by movement, moment by moment to be recorded from 2000 years ago. It’s a shame you are looking at scripture in this manner.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I am still trying to figure out why Jesus’ actual birth date is even relevant.

No one knows that actual date, so in order to celebrate his birth the Church had to pick a date. The Church chose Dec. 25. Big deal.

Hisalone: Do you have a better date in mind on which to celbrate his birth?

 

[Anian]

Actually Jesus was born in 2BC not 0AD, and during the summer becuase that was when the shepherds would have been in the countryside of Bethlehem, in the winter that area is not good pasturage, but nobody can prove a date so why not celebrate it on Dec. 25th? Anyway during the early church to show that we were the new religion replacing paganism we adopted the pagans ways, we took pagan churches and made them christian ones, for 800 years the Parthenon in Athens was a catholic than orthodox cathedral. We also took there holidays, winter solstice was Dec. 25th and was there holiday of rebirth or new year, well thanks to the slow change in earths rotational axis the solstice is changed over two millenniums to the 21st, and in 11,000 years it will be in June, maybe the pope will change the date to follow the solstice as it marches across the calendar and who knows, in 11,000 years we might actually have Christmas on the right date!

 

[Hisalone]

My post has to do with the word “child” as you posted Matthew 2.11 and one of your arguments in a previous post was that when the Magi visited Christ, Jesus was a child.

In the Luke passage, I was showing you back to back verses where one like states **baby **and the second line refers to Jesus as a child.

They both mean the same thing!

As far as the Magi goes from Matthew 2.11 ~ Jesus was still a baby

Who is to say that when the people moved out of the “inns” and “houses” that Mother Mary didn’t move OUT from the manger to a house. She probably did. I do not see a discrepancy.

So, by the time the Magi got to Baby Jesus, Mother Mary could have been in “a house”.

You are looking for a play by play, movement by movement, moment by moment to be recorded from 2000 years ago. It’s a shame you are looking at scripture in this manner.

The question still remains Did the shepherds and the Magi visit at the same time?

 

[Hisalone]

I am still trying to figure out why Jesus’ actual birth date is even relevant.

No one knows that actual date, so in order to celebrate his birth the Church had to pick a date. The Church chose Dec. 25. Big deal.

Hisalone: Do you have a better date in mind on which to celbrate his birth?

Have you read nothing I write?
During the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Have you read nothing I write?
During the Feast of Tabernacles.

Well then, I tell you what: You write a letter to the Pope and to the Orthodox Patriarchs. If they agree then you’ll get your way. Until then, you have no authority to reject what the successors of the apostles have “bound”.

 

[jakasaki]

The question still remains Did the shepherds and the Magi visit at the same time?

I wasn’t there but if I were to take an educated guess, I say no, they were not there the same time.

The shepherds came first and then the Magi. Why?

Because the shepherds were already in the area, the Magi had to travel far to see Jesus and by camel no less.

The shepherds saw Baby Jesus in the manger.

The Magi saw Baby Jesus in “a house”

That’s why I wrote that Mother Mary had to move out of the manger and into a house when vacancy was available.

Again, it’s a shame you are looking at scripture in this manner.

 

[graceandglory]

Its not when Christ was born.
December 25th mixes the holy with the profane.
Christ with pagan…

No it doesn’t.
It doesn’t and hasn’t ever in my house.
All the customs surrounding the Holy Day are up to you to celebrate or not however you want.

 

[theogrit]

hmmm… who should I follow? Christ and His Apostles or their secessors?
I try not to celebrate either Christmas or Thanksgiving Day, in keeping with the teachings of Christ and His Apostles.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

hmmm… who should I follow? Christ and His Apostles or their secessors?
I try not to celebrate either Christmas or Thanksgiving Day, in keeping with the teachings of Christ and His Apostles.

And, pray tell, when did Jesus or the Apostles ever say you should not celebrate his birth, hmmmmmmmm?

 

[Hisalone]

Again, it’s a shame you are looking at scripture in this manner.

Not at all if your an adoptive child you would want to know more about your real parents.

I can not understand why you would not want to look at scripture this way.
Does not an understanding of Passover enrich our understanding of the Crucifixion?
Does not our understnading of Pentacost enrich our understanding of our Pentecost?
Both Feasts and there NT coterparts help to tell us who God is.