H
Hisalone
Guest
on a day other than Christs birth?
Makes no sense.
Makes no sense.
- Status
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Can you prove that December 25 was not His birth date? Prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt?
The fact is, Jesus was born. (You do believe that, I trust?) Therefore, He had a birthday. We do not know with certainty what the day was, yet we can certainly celebrate that He was born.
If you would rather celebrate His birth on another day, having had a private relevation where He appears to you and murmurs, “Confidentially, it was February 15”, go for it.
But unless you’re the Holy Spirit guiding us to full truth, I don’t think it’s in your job description to determine that "if we don’t know the real date of Christ’s birth we shouldn’t celebrate his birth at all because we can’t celebrate on ‘the day.’
The fact is, Jesus was born. (You do believe that, I trust?) Therefore, He had a birthday. We do not know with certainty what the day was, yet we can certainly celebrate that He was born.
If you would rather celebrate His birth on another day, having had a private relevation where He appears to you and murmurs, “Confidentially, it was February 15”, go for it.
But unless you’re the Holy Spirit guiding us to full truth, I don’t think it’s in your job description to determine that "if we don’t know the real date of Christ’s birth we shouldn’t celebrate his birth at all because we can’t celebrate on ‘the day.’
W
wwolverine
Guest
For centuries people were waiting for the King who was foretold would be born and free them, On the day He was born, the angels came and informed the shepherds, Three wise kings came to see Him from the east.
Yes the day as per your say is important, but if Catholic church feels we should celebrate it on 25th December, than we are all for it.
God Bless you.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
It is not a day that is being celebrated, but a fact: the Nativity According to the Flesh of our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ (to give the full Orthodox name).
FWIW, Armenians do not celebrate the Solemnity of the Nativity, but the Solemnity of the Incarnation (combining Annunciation, Nativity, Adoration of the Magi, and Baptism of Christ) on 6 January.
To give weak parallels to celebrating things NOT on their days, the Declaration of Independence was actually signed on 2 July. And the Queen of England was born in March, but the official celebration of her birthday is observed in June because the weather is better then.
FWIW, Armenians do not celebrate the Solemnity of the Nativity, but the Solemnity of the Incarnation (combining Annunciation, Nativity, Adoration of the Magi, and Baptism of Christ) on 6 January.
To give weak parallels to celebrating things NOT on their days, the Declaration of Independence was actually signed on 2 July. And the Queen of England was born in March, but the official celebration of her birthday is observed in June because the weather is better then.
H
Hisalone
Guest
The evidence against December 25th is much stronger than the evidence for it.
Do you know why we celebrate it on Dec 25th?
H
Hisalone
Guest
The sheep were in the fields when Christ was born.For centuries people were waiting for the King who was foretold would be born and free them, On the day He was born, the angels came and informed the shepherds, Three wise kings came to see Him from the east.
Yes the day as per your say is important, but if Catholic church feels we should celebrate it on 25th December, than we are all for it.
God Bless you.
Sheep are not in the fields that time of year in and around Jerusalem.
Do you celebrate any of your family members birthday on any day other than their actual birthday.
G
graceandglory
Guest
TRADITION.
What really doesn’t make sense is: Why do Protestants celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th, when they are so opposed to Tradition? It’s not in the bible.
H
Hisalone
Guest
Hisalone;5987567:
Yes another reason why tradition is so unreliable.on a day other than Christs birth?
QUOTE]
TRADITION.
H
heathernoel
Guest
J
jakasaki
Guest
And how do you know that sheep are NOT in the fields around this time in Jerusalem?
Do you have any facts from 2000 years ago where the sheep were kept in December?
Oh yes indeed.
My birthday is on August 1st and it has been celebrated early like in late July and it has also been celebreated way past the 1st more like the middle of Ausust and a few times in September.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Do you know what I celebrate on Christmas? The birth of Christ.
I don’t celebrate it because I want presents. I don’t celebrate it because Santa comes. I don’t celebrate it because somebody hundreds of years ago wanted to ‘redirect’ people who worshipped pagan gods and so ‘incorporated’ pagan stuff and then called it "Christmas’. I celebrate the fact that Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary around 2000 years or so ago in a little town called Bethlehem.
I feel very sorry for those people who are so caught up with their own narrow-minded concepts and their own personal interpretations of truth that they can claim to be worshipping God while symbolically slapping the faces of a billion people because (to these narrow-minded pharisees) the whole celebration isn’t done ‘their way’.
As I said, His, you celebrate Christ’s birthday whenever you want, however you want. . .I won’t say a word. But don’t you dare try to impose your narrow-minded ‘restrictions’ and foist your unsupported assumptions about Christmas onto us and then scream at us over the strawman **you **have erected.
I don’t celebrate it because I want presents. I don’t celebrate it because Santa comes. I don’t celebrate it because somebody hundreds of years ago wanted to ‘redirect’ people who worshipped pagan gods and so ‘incorporated’ pagan stuff and then called it "Christmas’. I celebrate the fact that Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary around 2000 years or so ago in a little town called Bethlehem.
I feel very sorry for those people who are so caught up with their own narrow-minded concepts and their own personal interpretations of truth that they can claim to be worshipping God while symbolically slapping the faces of a billion people because (to these narrow-minded pharisees) the whole celebration isn’t done ‘their way’.
As I said, His, you celebrate Christ’s birthday whenever you want, however you want. . .I won’t say a word. But don’t you dare try to impose your narrow-minded ‘restrictions’ and foist your unsupported assumptions about Christmas onto us and then scream at us over the strawman **you **have erected.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
OH, it’s the old "there could not have been shepherds in the field’ routine?
Just for you, His, from Fisheaters. . .
Just for you, His, from Fisheaters. . .
Code:
To rebut the idea that Jesus had to have been born (rather than conceived) in the Spring because the shepherds were in their fields, which wouldn't have been so in the Winter, there's this, from the Anglican scholar, Alfred Edersheim, in his "The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah": And yet Jewish tradition may here prove both illustrative and helpful. That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, was a settled conviction. Equally so, was the belief , that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, 'the tower of the flock.' This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah [951] leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices [952], and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism, on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. **The same Mishnaic passage also leads us to infer, that *these flocks lay out all the year round***, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover -- that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.
Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, *where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round*. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak.
It was, then, on that ‘wintry night’ of the 25th of December, that shepherds watched the flocks destined for sacrificial services, in the very place consecrated by tradition as that where the Messiah was to be first revealed. Of a sudden came the long-delayed, unthought-of announcement.
*951: Shek. vii. 4.**
952: In fact the Mishnah (Baba K. vii. 7) expressly forbids the keeping of flocks throughout the land of Israel, except in the wilderness - and the only flocks otherwise kept, would be those for the Temple-services (Baba K. 80 a).*
P
peary
Guest
Many people throughout the world celebrate their birthday on the day they weren’t born, simply because they don’t know or choose another day.
The fact that Jesus IS born is worthy of celebration. Makes sense to me. Then again, I don’t have your synapses to deal with.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
His asked the question, “Why celebrate a birthday on a day other than the actual birthday? It makes no sense. . .”
To which many of my Chinese friends might respond with the following regarding the celebration of the Chinese New Year,
"The entire first week was a time for socializing and amusement. On the streets, the stores were closed and an air of gaiety prevailed. There were numberous lion dances, acrobats, theatrical shows, and other diversions. Firecrackers, which symbolized driving away evil spirits, were heard throughout the first two weeks of the New year. The Seventh Day of the New Year was called **“everybody’s birthday” **as everyone was considered one year older as of that date. (In traditional China, individual birthdays were not considered as important as the New Year’s date. Everyone added a year to his age at New Year’s time rather than at his birthday.) "
My goodness! We’re talking millions of people here for whom, culturally speaking, celebration of a birthday on a date other than the actual date of birth was the norm.
To which many of my Chinese friends might respond with the following regarding the celebration of the Chinese New Year,
"The entire first week was a time for socializing and amusement. On the streets, the stores were closed and an air of gaiety prevailed. There were numberous lion dances, acrobats, theatrical shows, and other diversions. Firecrackers, which symbolized driving away evil spirits, were heard throughout the first two weeks of the New year. The Seventh Day of the New Year was called **“everybody’s birthday” **as everyone was considered one year older as of that date. (In traditional China, individual birthdays were not considered as important as the New Year’s date. Everyone added a year to his age at New Year’s time rather than at his birthday.) "
My goodness! We’re talking millions of people here for whom, culturally speaking, celebration of a birthday on a date other than the actual date of birth was the norm.
H
Hisalone
Guest
History
Mosaic of Jesus as Christo Sole (Christ the Sun) in Mausoleum M in the pre-fourth-century necropolis under St Peter’s Basilica in Rome.[39]For many centuries, Christian writers accepted that Christmas was the actual date on which Jesus was born.[40] However, in the early eighteenth century, scholars began proposing alternative explanations. Isaac Newton argued that the date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the winter solstice,[8] which in ancient times was marked on December 25.[41] In 1743, German Protestant Paul Ernst Jablonski argued Christmas was placed on December 25 to correspond with the Roman solar holiday Dies Natalis Solis Invicti and was therefore a “paganization” that debased the true church.[7] In 1889, Louis Duchesne suggested that the date of Christmas was calculated as nine months after the Annunciation (March 25), the traditional date of the Incarnation.[42]
Pre-Christian background
Dies Natalis Solis Invicti
Main article: Sol Invictus
Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means “the birthday of the unconquered Sun.” The use of the title Sol Invictus allowed several solar deities to be worshipped collectively, including Elah-Gabal, a Syrian sun god; Sol, the god of Emperor Aurelian; and Mithras, a soldiers’ god of Persian origin.[43] Emperor Elagabalus (218–222) introduced the festival, and it reached the height of its popularity under Aurelian, who promoted it as an empire-wide holiday.[44] This day had held no significance in the Roman festive calendar until it was introduced in the third century.[45]
The festival was placed on the date of the solstice because this was on this day that the Sun reversed its southward retreat and proved itself to be “unconquered.” Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus.[6] “O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born…Christ should be born”, Cyprian wrote.[6] John Chrysostom also commented on the connection: “They call it the ‘Birthday of the Unconquered’. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .?”[6]
Winter festivals
Main article: List of winter festivals
A winter festival was the most popular festival of the year in many cultures. Reasons included the fact that less agricultural work needs to be done during the winter, as well as an expectation of better weather as spring approached.[46] Modern Christmas customs include: gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; and Yule logs and various foods from Germanic feasts.[47] Pagan Scandinavia celebrated a winter festival called Yule, held in the late December to early January period. As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan traditions had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,[48] a usage first recorded in 900.
Christian establishment
The New Testament does not give a date for the birth of Jesus.[6][49] Around AD 200, Clement of Alexandria wrote that a group in Egypt celebrated the nativity on Pachon 25.[6] This corresponds to May 20.[50] Tertullian (d. 220) does not mention Christmas as a major feast day in the Church of Roman Africa.[6] However, in Chronographai, a reference work published in 221, Sextus Julius Africanus suggested that Jesus was conceived on the spring equinox, popularizing the idea that Christ was born on December 25.[51][52] The equinox was March 25 on the Roman calendar, so this implied a birth in December.[53] De Pascha Computus, a calendar of feasts produced in 243, gives March 28 as the date of the nativity.[54] In 245, the theologian Origen of Alexandria stated that, “only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod)” celebrated their birthdays.[55] In 303, Christian writer Arnobius ridiculed the idea of celebrating the birthdays of gods, which suggests that Christmas was not yet a feast at this time.[6]
Feast established
An early reference to the date of the nativity as December 25 is found in the Chronography of 354, an illuminated manuscript compiled in Rome in 354.[56] In the East, early Christians celebrated the birth of Christ as part of Epiphany (January 6), although this festival emphasized celebration of the baptism of Jesus.[57]
Christmas was promoted in the Christian East as part of the revival of Catholicism following the death of the pro-Arian Emperor Valens at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. The feast was introduced to Constantinople in 379, and to Antioch in about 380. The feast disappeared after Gregory of Nazianzus resigned as bishop in 381, although it was reintroduced by John Chrysostom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
Mosaic of Jesus as Christo Sole (Christ the Sun) in Mausoleum M in the pre-fourth-century necropolis under St Peter’s Basilica in Rome.[39]For many centuries, Christian writers accepted that Christmas was the actual date on which Jesus was born.[40] However, in the early eighteenth century, scholars began proposing alternative explanations. Isaac Newton argued that the date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the winter solstice,[8] which in ancient times was marked on December 25.[41] In 1743, German Protestant Paul Ernst Jablonski argued Christmas was placed on December 25 to correspond with the Roman solar holiday Dies Natalis Solis Invicti and was therefore a “paganization” that debased the true church.[7] In 1889, Louis Duchesne suggested that the date of Christmas was calculated as nine months after the Annunciation (March 25), the traditional date of the Incarnation.[42]
Pre-Christian background
Dies Natalis Solis Invicti
Main article: Sol Invictus
Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means “the birthday of the unconquered Sun.” The use of the title Sol Invictus allowed several solar deities to be worshipped collectively, including Elah-Gabal, a Syrian sun god; Sol, the god of Emperor Aurelian; and Mithras, a soldiers’ god of Persian origin.[43] Emperor Elagabalus (218–222) introduced the festival, and it reached the height of its popularity under Aurelian, who promoted it as an empire-wide holiday.[44] This day had held no significance in the Roman festive calendar until it was introduced in the third century.[45]
The festival was placed on the date of the solstice because this was on this day that the Sun reversed its southward retreat and proved itself to be “unconquered.” Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus.[6] “O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born…Christ should be born”, Cyprian wrote.[6] John Chrysostom also commented on the connection: “They call it the ‘Birthday of the Unconquered’. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .?”[6]
Winter festivals
Main article: List of winter festivals
A winter festival was the most popular festival of the year in many cultures. Reasons included the fact that less agricultural work needs to be done during the winter, as well as an expectation of better weather as spring approached.[46] Modern Christmas customs include: gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; and Yule logs and various foods from Germanic feasts.[47] Pagan Scandinavia celebrated a winter festival called Yule, held in the late December to early January period. As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan traditions had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,[48] a usage first recorded in 900.
Christian establishment
The New Testament does not give a date for the birth of Jesus.[6][49] Around AD 200, Clement of Alexandria wrote that a group in Egypt celebrated the nativity on Pachon 25.[6] This corresponds to May 20.[50] Tertullian (d. 220) does not mention Christmas as a major feast day in the Church of Roman Africa.[6] However, in Chronographai, a reference work published in 221, Sextus Julius Africanus suggested that Jesus was conceived on the spring equinox, popularizing the idea that Christ was born on December 25.[51][52] The equinox was March 25 on the Roman calendar, so this implied a birth in December.[53] De Pascha Computus, a calendar of feasts produced in 243, gives March 28 as the date of the nativity.[54] In 245, the theologian Origen of Alexandria stated that, “only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod)” celebrated their birthdays.[55] In 303, Christian writer Arnobius ridiculed the idea of celebrating the birthdays of gods, which suggests that Christmas was not yet a feast at this time.[6]
Feast established
An early reference to the date of the nativity as December 25 is found in the Chronography of 354, an illuminated manuscript compiled in Rome in 354.[56] In the East, early Christians celebrated the birth of Christ as part of Epiphany (January 6), although this festival emphasized celebration of the baptism of Jesus.[57]
Christmas was promoted in the Christian East as part of the revival of Catholicism following the death of the pro-Arian Emperor Valens at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. The feast was introduced to Constantinople in 379, and to Antioch in about 380. The feast disappeared after Gregory of Nazianzus resigned as bishop in 381, although it was reintroduced by John Chrysostom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
H
Hisalone
Guest
God entrusted His times and His seasons to the Jewish people and has always done according to His calender.
Christs death corresponds with Passover, we call Him our Passover lamb.
Pentacost is a Jewish feast of “First Fruits”
So in Gods calender what is December 25th?
J
jakasaki
Guest
@ OP
What is your “beef” with the celebration of Christmas on the 25th?
What is your “beef” with the celebration of Christmas on the 25th?
H
Hisalone
Guest
Its not when Christ was born.
December 25th mixes the holy with the profane.
Christ with pagan…
L
LilyM
Guest
Actually, yes. In our family we have a birthday at the end of July and three others in August, so we get together whenever we can during August and celebrate 'em all together.
Similarly, this year my father turned the big 70. We celebrated it some time after the event so that all the family could get together.
Thirdly - who says the sheep were in the fields? The SHEPHERDS were in the fields, but the sheep may’ve been inside their pens and the shepherds outside - seems to me it’d be easier to keep a watch for wolves or predators from outdoors than in.
J
jmcrae
Guest
How do you know it isn’t? After all, the date of the Annunciation (Christ’s conception) was celebrated on March 25th right from the earliest times, maybe even while Mary was still living.
Interestingly, if you (name removed by moderator)ut March 25th in one of those pregnancy calculator things, and specify that it’s your first child, the most likely birthday will come out to December 24th or 25th.
- Status