Why celebrate Christmas

[Joshua27]

The Israelites have adopted and adapted many cultural aspects of pagan societies.Israelite altars, Israelite sacrifices were copied from the Canaanite civilization -and canaanite society predates Israelite society.Their altars are almost identical with the “horn” around them.The sacrificial portions and manner of oblations again were taken from pagan sources- they adopted then adapted them.

And each time they did, they were warned not to, and then punished. It’s not a coincidence that Jews have had a rough time in the history of our civilization. These are the first people who chose to follow this God. With this choice comes rules you must abide by. In fact, the majority of the Old testament is a tale of the Nation of God being delivered…only to backslide and be punished…pleading to be delivered again…only to be saved and then backslide again.

[Jeremiah 3:8] And I say, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The “people of God” were considered the “Church of God” and akin to a woman being unfaithful with other gods.

Circumscion was not unique to the Israelites and could have been adopted in Egypt.

Show evidence of your claim that these customs “could have been” adopted; these are crucial matters of the soul and Salvation lies in the balance. Circumcision was a Jewish blood covenant, while Egyptian sacrificial/Worship practices are documented. Research Obelisk,Sunseal, Human Sacrifice and Public Intercourse.

Passover and the feast of unleavened bread also developed from and precede Israelite society.They are very ancient shepherd and grain festivals.Again the adopted and adapted.

If this is true we’ll compare notes. Because not all Jewish feasts are blessed by God. Again, What did God “say”, versus what man (early Jews) chose to do?

The oldest name for God “El” along with many of God’s names are adopted and adapted from canaanite religion.

“El” (“God”) is not a name but a designation, like “Man” is for me and “Woman” is for you. Prior to God giving His name to Moses, no one knew what to call Him or His angels (who were also often labeled “gods” [Elohim] in the bible).

If you try to divorce all pagan influences fvrom every aspect of the religion of Israel then you wouldn’t have much left.

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT!! If you remove all pagan influences from religion, what are you left with? True is your implication; you would not have a religion left…but what remains, Julia…what remains?

But if you see that adopting and adapting cultural aspects of those surrounding you was a way of spreading YHWH’s name and fame then maybe you’ll understand why Christianity adopted and adapted from pagans just as the Israelites did.If anyone says they are totally free of any pagan influences from the past they are either very ignorant or lying.

Yes, that’s my point. I acknowledge that pagan influences are deeply entrenched. But let me give you the words of God [the same God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob that we all claim to follow], which you can agrue against if you want…but realize Whom you argue against:

[Deuteronomy 12:29-32] [Prior to spreading to a new nation, God instructed His people…]

When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whether thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, “How did these nations serve their gods? Even so will I do likewise.” 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it [what God commanded of the people].

---

The preceeding was a message to Israel, but the same message was given much later during the time when Christianity existed and was spreading, when - once again - a whore/adulterer/fornicator is described:

[Revelation 17:1-9 (not in entirety)]

…Come Hither, I will shew unto thee the judgement of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication [gotten in bed with; mixed; married; mingled; hooked up], and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk [not sober; not rational; in stupor] with the wine of her fornication…

Please read for yourself the entire passage of Revelation 17:1-9, and remember that the “people of God” have always represented a “Woman” who is either a “bride” to God or an unfaithful “harlot” or “adulterer” against God.

Pay close attention to her description.

 

[juliamajor]

So there was a gradual build-up to saying “this is what we will celebrate”.

Wow…Such audacity, because you will not find one statement from Messiah or God granting of this power to anyone. What you will try to do is assume this power was included from a prior power given. But the Messiah and God were always explicit in their authority of the apostles. Nowhere does it say they could freely set times and seasons. I challenge you to find proof, sir.

Nothing is being taken…but generally, yeah?

Research Emperor Constantine I and his desire to unify the Roman Empire in 312?AD. Research how all other pagan religions were worshiping on Sunday for their god “Sol Invictus”.**(This is rather a bunch of twaddle a “sabbath” that is strictly a Judeo-christian idea-since their were so many deities the Romans had festival on at least one day of the week or more.If you really want to know about “real” history and not just that garnered by the cartoon history created on Fundamentalist websites I suggest the "history of the Religions of Ancient Rome].) Research how Constantine wanted peace so he “suggested” that the pope change the holy day. Research how - prior to the change - there were Popes, a Catholic Church and Christianity (spread throughout nations for more than 200 years during persecution) who’s holyday was Sabbath day. (Historical fact is that jewish Christians worshiped in the Temple and after 70ad.in the synagogue until they were not allowed to do so by the Jewish authorities. The Jews did not want to be mixed up with The WAY . They had enough troubles with Roman authorities and being considered by the romans the same religion(Christianity and Judaism that is) they wanted to make sure the Romans knew who the Jews were (they weren’t Christians) and since Messianic Jews were NOT considered Real Jews because they worshiped Christ- they would no longer be part of the jewish congregations.This was a result of the Diaspora when the Jews were tossed out of Israel and in order to keep their identity as Jews under difficult circumstances, the rabbis took the place of the priests in importance and eventually Messianic Jews would be tossed for what could be seen as a conflict of interests-Christians from Israel (not Gentile Christians) had gone to Temple on Saturday then had the agape Lord’s supper on Sunday- Now that sir is history, I suggest a book “how the Romans saw the Christians”-to get unbiased opinions) not a general pagan influence…this is substancial.]NO adopting and the adapting had been done by the Israelites of pagan holy days, calendar(they adopted the Babylonian calendar), their form of worship, , their sacrifical altars and the kinds of meat offered to the gods/God"( and even names for God have their roots in paganism- I refer you to books by Jewish biblical scholars Nahum Sarna and Jacob Milgrom/**B] But now you’ll probably go and say, “yeah we copied, but we made the day holy with meaning”,(just like the Israelites did)yet you will not have an answer to, “are you following what God - and the Messiah - ‘SAID’ to follow?”

This isn’t about anyone else “well other people have holy days”]…this is about those who claim to follow the God of Israel, as all Christians (Catholics, Protestants, Pres.) and Jews do, and yet we say “I’ll follow Him, my way” (such is an oxymoron).

You then go on to explain the altruistic reason for our decision to celebrate what we want to celebrate. How vain are we? Messiah did not come down and tell us “remember my birthday”; or, “remember when I was conceived”. There was one thing he explicitly said to hold in rememberance of Him(not His birthday so much but properly the Incarnation of God).

Prove that theirs came second, sir…prove that ours came first. I can prove that ours was changed by Pope Gregory XIII [did you know he added days]…prior to that, it was changed by Emperor Julian (actually you got it really screwed up it was Julius Caesar, not emperor but imperator& yea a pagan(a pagan). We do not follow God’s Calendar(according to you neither do the Jews who dumped the Hebraic calendar and adopted and adapted the evil horrible pagan calendar of the Babylonians when they were in exile and use it still-After all it’s only a calebndar and not theology welleven there they adopted and adapted(Cherubim? babylonian-angels with wings? babylonian? demons of all kinds? also from the babylonians)​

You see…you have no answer for my specific “what ifs”. In my last post I presented to you God’s perspective - taken directly from the recorded pages of He and His Son’s lips - and you argue me as if they are my points of view.

For a moment, imagine yourself standing before God and Messiah…Would you actually still give them the same explanation you gave me?(Oh please are you a nabi?God’s mouthpiece?talk about arrogance)

 

[juliamajor]

Originally Posted by juliamajor
The Israelites have adopted and adapted many cultural aspects of pagan societies.Israelite altars, Israelite sacrifices were copied from the Canaanite civilization -and canaanite society predates Israelite society.Their altars are almost identical with the “horn” around them.The sacrificial portions and manner of oblations again were taken from pagan sources- they adopted then adapted them.

,.(No they weren’t-not in their design of the Temple or what cuts of meat for sacrifice, nor the style , nor the Pesach nor the feast of unleavened bread nor the calendar nor their names for God-nor their adaptation of Cherubim, angels with wings. its the customs the wereADOPTED and NOT ADAPTED that were the source of trouble)
.

Originally Posted by juliamajor
Circumscion was not unique to the Israelites and could have been adopted in Egypt.

Show evidence of your claim that these customs “could have been” adopted; these are crucial matters of the soul and Salvation lies in the balance. Circumcision was a Jewish blood covenant, while Egyptian sacrificial/Worship practices are documented. Research Obelisk,Sunseal, Human Sacrifice and Public Intercourse.(as I stated “could be” and since Egyptian civilization Predates Israelite society I think it would not be a stretch to say that circumcision came from Egyptians. Moses was not circumcised because he already had been by the Egyptians since he was part of the royal house.)
If this is true we’ll compare notes. Because not all Jewish feasts are blessed by God. Again, What did God “say”, versus what man (early Jews) chose to do?(I have no idea what you are saying here-and yes it is true the libraries at mari and Ebla proved it
EL and Elohim
El" (“God”) is not a name but a designation, like “Man” is for me and “Woman” is for you. Prior to God giving His name to Moses, no one knew what to call Him or His angels (who were also often labeled “gods” [Elohim] in the bible).

men and is often addressed as such by the Canaanite gods

EL is the supreme creator god of the Canaanites who lives with the other gods on Mount Zaphon (similar to Mount Olympus of the Greeks but located at the mouth of the Orontes river near the border between Turkey and Syria). He is the father of all the gods and Originally Posted by juliamajor
If you try to divorce all pagan influences fvrom every aspect of the religion of Israel then you wouldn’t have much left.

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT!! If you remove all pagan influences from religion, what are you left with? True is your implication; you would not have a religion left…but what remains, Julia…what remains?(not a hell of a lot-pagan doesn’t have to mean evil- apagan calendar isn’t any more evil then any other calendar.Does pagan science , art, music, literature mean it’s evil.? Having been a classics major in college I can say-NO.So much would be lost in our culture if we stripped it of everything of pagan origin.This is a simplistic Taliban mentality that I refuse to believe God would be agreed to. Since he gave us not only a spirit and a soul but a mind with eyes to see and study works of art- and read Homer and cry over Euripides, If God really wanted that for his people then why are and were some of the greatest minds and artists scientists of this century and many other centuries Jewish? Jewish people have a great love of learning which translates to into the arts, the sciences,-everything that makes us human -and many things that can lift us up and inspire us. Because I don’t believe that the Lord God made us thinking creatures only to be stifled by narrowness of mind and spirit.If Jesus frees us we are free indeed -not to sin or do evil but to bring something beautiful into the world to lift each other up and make the world a better place. Do you really believe that Taliban thinking will bring souls to Christ? St. Paul was very familiar with Greco Roman culture-he uses atheltic terminology(not a judaic favorite at the time) and he quotes pagan philosophers-is Paul evil then? Aapparently he didn’t think everything the pagans had was tainted or else he wouldn’t have quoted it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliamajor
But if you see that adopting and adapting cultural aspects of those surrounding you was a way of spreading YHWH’s name and fame then maybe you’ll understand why Christianity adopted and adapted from pagans just as the Israelites did.If anyone says they are totally free of any pagan influences from the past they are either very ignorant or lying.

me give you the words of God [the same God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob that we all claim to follow], which you can agrue against if you want…but realize Whom you argue againstDon’t play that tired game on me -you’re not God-so don’t pretend that you speak or think for Him-I’m talking to you-arguing WITH YOU-not God- that has to be the most annoying pretentious thing anyone can say to another person-you are not Moses and arguing with you is not like arguing with God)[Deuteronomy 12:29-32] [Prior to spreading to a new nation, God instructed His people…]

].(We are talking again of worshiping of foreign gods and of adopting some of their more perverse and egregious things-don’t read into scripture what you want to see and not what it actually says-also the correctness and observance of rituals was a big theme in DT. along with repeating of the sinaiCovenant)

 

[jmcrae]

So there was a gradual build-up to saying “this is what we will celebrate”.

Wow…Such audacity, because you will not find one statement from Messiah or God granting of this power to anyone. What you will try to do is assume this power was included from a prior power given. But the Messiah and God were always explicit in their authority of the apostles. Nowhere does it say they could freely set times and seasons. I challenge you to find proof, sir.

Nothing is being taken…but generally, yeah?

Yes. The Pagans created the idea of “Year”, “Month” and “Day.” We borrow these ideas from them. What we do in them, though, has nothing to do with paganism.

Research Emperor Constantine I and his desire to unify the Roman Empire in 312?AD. Research how all other pagan religions were worshiping on Sunday for their god “Sol Invictus”.

They had a different God for each day of the week. If we had picked Saturday, we’d be “worshipping Saturn” according to you. If we picked Wednesday, we’d be “worshipping Mercury” according to you.

Research how Constantine wanted peace so he “suggested” that the pope change the holy day. Research how - prior to the change - there were Popes, a Catholic Church and Christianity (spread throughout nations for more than 200 years during persecution) who’s holyday was Sabbath day.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The day of the celebration of the Lord’s Supper (aka the “breaking of the bread”) was always Sunday, even from the time of the Apostles.

You then go on to explain the altruistic reason for our decision to celebrate what we want to celebrate. How vain are we? Messiah did not come down and tell us “remember my birthday”; or, “remember when I was conceived”. There was one thing he explicitly said to hold in rememberance of Him.

Right, and you’ll notice that Catholics are the only Christians on the whole planet and indeed in the entire known Universe, who do “this one thing” every single day of the week, every single day of the year.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Yes. The Pagans created the idea of “Year”, “Month” and “Day.” We borrow these ideas from them. What we do in them, though, has nothing to do with paganism.

They had a different God for each day of the week. If we had picked Saturday, we’d be “worshipping Saturn” according to you. If we picked Wednesday, we’d be “worshipping Mercury” according to you.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The day of the celebration of the Lord’s Supper (aka the “breaking of the bread”) was always Sunday, even from the time of the Apostles.

Right, and you’ll notice that Catholics are the only Christians on the whole planet and indeed in the entire known Universe, who do “this one thing” every single day of the week, every single day of the year.

Christmas Has been over for what a month so why keep beating a dead horse Christian do celebration Chrustmasif you think you are a pagan so be it, no one cares

 

[juliamajor]

Circumcision, although having been practiced in
areas throughout the world,
was first documented in art form by
the Egyptians. Found in an Egyptian
tomb built for Ankhmabor in Saqqara and dating to
around 2400 B. To see tomb paintings of circumcision in Egypt use Google images"Egyptian circumcision"
Show evidence of your claim that these customs “could have been” adopted; these are crucial matters of the soul and Salvation lies in the balance(Gee I only thought the foreskin.was involved) Circumcision was a Jewish blood covenant, while Egyptian sacrificial/Worship practices are documented-Very familiar with Egyptian worship, Egyptian history.Your history scholarship is as weak as your understanding of Catholicism -that is nil.

 

[Joshua27]

Yes. The Pagans created the idea of “Year”, “Month” and “Day.” We borrow these ideas from them. What we do in them, though, has nothing to do with paganism.

[Genesis 1:14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.

When does the year start, and what is it guided by? When the barley was at its height, guided by new moons.

They had a different God for each day of the week. If we had picked Saturday, we’d be “worshipping Saturn” according to you. If we picked Wednesday, we’d be “worshipping Mercury” according to you.

Pagans did have different Gods they worshiped, with the Sun God as King over all. However, we had names for days of the week before this, they were, “1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th (before the 7th was blessed as Sabbath)”.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The day of the celebration of the Lord’s Supper (aka the “breaking of the bread”) was always Sunday, even from the time of the Apostles.

Right, and you’ll notice that Catholics are the only Christians on the whole planet and indeed in the entire known Universe, who do “this one thing” every single day of the week, every single day of the year.

It wasn’t named The Lord’s Supper in Messiah’s time and it wasn’t always Sunday. The Messiah kept “Passover” to remember Death passing over blood-marked homes of the Israelites during their captivity in Egypt. He then asked us to remember the “same” feast for bringing us new salvation. Passover (High Sabbath) is the 15th of the first month of the new year.

------For Julia-----

This is rather a bunch of twaddle a “sabbath” that is **strictly a Judeo (Jewish)-christian idea-**since their were so many deities the Romans.

Rabanus Maurus (776-856) stated in De Clericorum Institutione (Concerning the Instruction of the Clergymen), Book II, Chap. XLVI, as translated by the writer from the Latin text in Migne’s Patrologia Latina, Vol. CVII, col. 361:

Pope Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.) first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, [etc.], because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, "Let there be light:; on the second, [etc.] But he [Sylvester] ordered to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, the first feria the “Lord’s day,” because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the “rest” of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord’s day [Sunday], on order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.

…Meaning it was NOT previously changed prior to this order, which is roughly 200+ years after the Jewish Temple was destroyed.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (The Roman Catechism), translated by John A McHugh, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D. and Charles J. Callan, O.P., S.T.M., LITT.D., published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Copyright 1992, Rockford, Illinois, 61105, pg. 402:

…But the Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration of the Sabbath to Sunday. For, as on that day light first shone on the world, so by the Resurrection of our Redeemer on the same day, by whom was thrown open to us the gate of eternal life, we were called out of darkness into light; and hence the Apostles would have [assumption] called it the Lord’s day

In other words, it was also a “Catholic” idea up until around 312AD. I have more direct references from Catholic doctrines if you want.

Historical fact is that jewish Christians worshiped in the Temple and after 70ad.in the synagogue until they were not allowed to do so by the Jewish authorities. The Jews did not want to be mixed up with The WAY.

True, but please compare time periods. Sabbath was still upheld after the temple’s destruction by Gentile (non-jewish) Christians.

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…not His birthday so much but properly the Incarnation of God

And that’s fair, and (no doubt) an act of love…but what did he ‘say’ to remember?

actually you got it really screwed up it was Julius Caesar, not emperor but imperator& yea a pagan(a pagan)

Really screwed up huh? I had on my mind Emperor Julian and the Council of Laodicia (363-364 A.D) when I first mentioned Sunday worship and falsely referenced him for the calendar. But thanks! You’ve provided the correct pagan!

…according to you neither do the Jews [follow the rules] who dumped the Hebraic calendar and adopted and adapted the evil horrible pagan calendar of the Babylonians when they were in exile and use it still-After all it’s only a calebndar and not theology welleven there they adopted and adapted(Cherubim? babylonian-angels with wings? babylonian? demons of all kinds? also from the babylonians

Now you’re getting it! And you forgot Nephilim (giants)…But woe to anyone who changes God’s times and laws. Woe to Jews…Woe to Christians.

(Oh please are you a nabi?God’s mouthpiece?talk about arrogance)

Hmm…I wonder…would you recognize a prophet of God if one introduced him/herself to you face to face? Would you believe or rebuke? Be honest.

What if it there were (what you call) angels actually speaking to people through this forum, desparately trying to share the truth before the Father’s harvest?

 

[Joshua27]

No they weren’t…

I stated “could be”…

I’m reading a lot of staunch defense for pagan customs with examples that boil down to, “well everyone’s doing it (or did it)”. But I already gave scripture to answer this. Again…what did God ‘saay’. None of us can argue against this point.

EL is the supreme creator…

Thank you for this reference! Like I said angels were considered gods and then there was a “most high” God. Sounds very familiar doesn’t it…? Again, all prior to giving his name. And “yes”, I’m equating “El” and “Ehyeh” (not “Yahweh”, as falsely translated).

not a hell of a lot…

Julia…if there’s not a lot of “religion” left, what’s left? Nothing but you, Him and obedience.

pagan doesn’t have to mean evil

Well, don’t we believe that any disobedience is evil? This is the only reason why pagan things are, because the Father said “no”?

a pagan calendar isn’t any more evil then any other calendar.

What is a calendar - or a clock (for that matter) - used for, Julia? It’s used to help us keep syncronized; on schedule. A pagan calendar is simply an incorrect timepiece. Imagine if every clock in your home (including car and phone) is suddenly 26mins slower from the time you fall asleep to the time you awaken…you would never know it until you compared an outside reference or missed and appointment or engagement. But what if you were not able to correct your clocks? Using God’s timepiece is acknowledging who has authority. For example because a new year doesn’t simply start at the end of the old year, but when the barley reaches it’s highest and on the next new moon, the previous year could have an additional month before the new year. This is the definition of humility. Remember the first sin was pride.

No…no (and it’s a little offensive to label me as one of the murderous Taliban as an attack…though I can tell I’ve made you uncomfortable), art and music were here from the start. I don’t know if you realized but prior to satan’s fall, he was chief of the “arts” in praise of God. Knowledge is also freely given to those us as we are God’s unique creatures; in His likeness we are able to create as well. We were supposed to be the glory of God (always possessing similar things he has, but to be used to glorify him). The problem is corruption and perversion of these gifts, with a twist of self-centeredness. Can you claim that all of today’s music, art and science is currently used to the glory of God? or to man? “In all things, we are to show reverence to the Father.”

Because I don’t believe that the Lord God made us thinking creatures only to be stifled by narrowness of mind and spirit.

Neither do I, Julia.

Do you really believe that Taliban thinking will bring souls to Christ?

Another shot. What exactly is Taliban thinking? I guess it’s anything that doesn’t sound familiar? But I’m here to make the wise foolish; to shake your foundations if but to make your faith stronger.

St. Paul was very familiar with Greco Roman culture-he uses atheltic terminology(not a judaic favorite at the time) and he quotes pagan philosophers-is Paul evil then?

Not evil, but he was used. Peter is the rock - one of the original apostles who was specifically bestowed the Holy Spirit as a tongue of fire - and yet much of Christianity is based on Paul’s writings & structure as a Roman citizen (who was also once a violent persecuter of Peter’s group, and former Pharisee). Also He was not one of the original who received the Holy Spirit on Penecost, and we only have his word that he was converted - on his own - walking a road. Finally, he didn’t believe gentiles needed to follow the same jewish Laws Messiah followed; that Peter (the Rock) and James defended. We don’t read much in the form of cannon from Peter…I wonder where all of his writings went.

Don’t play that tired game on me -you’re not God-so don’t pretend that you speak or think for Him-I’m talking to you-arguing WITH YOU-not God- that has to be the most annoying pretentious thing anyone can say to another person

Unless it’s true…which I’m not saying it is, but I once again pose my question to you from my last post: What if it there were angels actually speaking to people today, desparately trying to share the truth before the Father’s wrath? Would you still react as you do? What would it take to listen?

We are talking again of worshiping of foreign gods and of adopting some of their more perverse and egregious things-don’t read into scripture what you want to see and not what it actually says-also the correctness and observance of rituals was a big theme in DT. along with repeating of the sinaiCovenant

)

He said “nothing”, Julia…nothing. Even harmless customs. They also knelt before statues, which isn’t harmful if you think about it…but even this is still considered an abomination to God…“why” is the question you must ask?

Your history scholarship is as weak as your understanding of Catholicism -that is nil.

Then in all things prove me wrong, scholar. If it get’s you to further research instead of blindly following then I’ve done my job.

 

[jmcrae]

Pagans did have different Gods they worshiped, with the Sun God as King over all. However, we had names for days of the week before this, they were, “1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th (before the 7th was blessed as Sabbath)”.

We came second - the Pagans were first. All the world was pagan to begin with, and then God began to reveal His religion to Abraham first, and then to Moses, and then to the Prophets, and then He came down in Person to us and taught the 12.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Why are we still beating a dead horse Christman has been over for about a month,you can stat again next year

 

[juliamajor]

From BAR(Biblical Archaeology Review)Home | Library | Forum | Digs | Travel/Study | Store | Subscribe
How December 25 Became Christmas
By Andrew McGowan

How did December 25 come to be associated with Jesus’ birthday?
The Bible offers few clues: The biblical reference to shepherds tending their flocks at night when they hear the news of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:8) might suggest the spring lambing season; in the cold month of December, on the other hand, sheep might well have been corralled. Yet most scholars would urge caution about extracting such a precise but incidental detail from a narrative whose focus is theological rather than calendrical.

. Easter, a much earlier development than Christmas, was simply the gradual Christian reinterpretation of Passover in terms of Jesus’ Passion. Its observance could even be implied in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 5:7–8: “Our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the festival…”); it was certainly a distinctively Christian feast by the mid-second century C.E., when the apocryphal text known as the Epistle to the Apostles has Jesus instruct his disciples to “make commemoration of [his] death, that is, the Passover.”
Jesus’ ministry, miracles, Passion and Resurrection were often of most interest to first- and early-second-century C.E. Christian writers. But over time, Jesus’ origins would become of increasing concern. We can begin to see this shift already in the New Testament.
In the second century C.E., further details of Jesus’ birth and childhood are related in apocryphal writings such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Proto-Gospel of James.b These texts provide everything from the names of Jesus’ grandparents to the details of his education—but not the date of his birth.
Finally, in about 200 C.E., a Christian teacher in Egypt makes reference to the date Jesus was born. According to Clement of Alexandria, several different days had been proposed by various Christian groups. Surprising as it may seem, Clement doesn’t mention December 25 at all. Clement writes: “There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar]…And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”2Clearly there was great uncertainty, but also a considerable amount of interest, in dating Jesus’ birth in the late second century. By the fourth century, however, we find references to two dates that were widely recognized—and now also celebrated—as Jesus’ birthday: December 25 in the western Roman Empire and January 6 in the East (especially in Egypt and Asia Minor). The modern Armenian church continues to celebrate Christmas on January 6; for most Christians, however, December 25 would prevail, while January 6 eventually came to be known as the Feast of the Epiphany, The earliest mention of December 25 as Jesus’ birthday comes from a mid-fourth-century Roman almanac that lists the death dates of various Christian bishops and martyrs. The first date listed, December 25, is marked: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: “Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea.”3 In about 400 C.E., Augustine of Hippo mentions a local dissident Christian group, the Donatists, who apparently kept Christmas festivals on December 25, but refused to celebrate the Epiphany on January 6, regarding it as an innovation. Since the Donatist group only emerged during the persecution under Diocletian in 312 C.E. and then remained stubbornly attached to the practices of that moment in time, they seem to represent an older North African Christian tradition.
In the East, January 6 was at first not associated with the magi alone, but with the Christmas story as a whole.

So, almost 300 years after Jesus was born, we finally find people observing his birth in midwinter. But how had they settled on the dates December 25 and January 6?
There are two theories today: one extremely popular, the other less often heard outside scholarly circles (though far more ancient).4The most loudly touted theory about the origins of the Christmas date(s) is that it was borrowed from pagan celebrations. The Romans had their mid-winter Saturnalia festival in late December; barbarian peoples of northern and western Europe kept holidays at similar times. To top it off, in 274 C.E., the Roman emperor Aurelian established a feast of the birth of Sol Invictus (the Unconquered Sun), on December 25. Christmas, the argument goes, is really a spin-off from these pagan solar festivals. According to this theory, early Christians deliberately chose these dates to encourage the spread of Christmas and Christianity throughout the Roman world: If Christmas looked like a pagan holiday, more pagans would be open to both the holiday and the God whose birth it celebrated.Despite its popularity today, this theory of Christmas’s origins has its problems. It is not found in any ancient Christian writings, for one thing. Christian authors of the time do note a connection between the solstice and Jesus’ birth: The church father Ambrose (c. 339–397), for example, described Christ as the true sun, who outshone the fallen gods of the old order.

 

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It’s not until the 12th century that we find the first suggestion that Jesus’ birth celebration was deliberately set at the time of pagan feasts. A marginal note on a manuscript of the writings of the Syriac biblical commentator Dionysius bar-Salibi states that in ancient times the Christmas holiday was actually shifted from January 6 to December 25 so that it fell on the same date as the pagan Sol Invictus holiday.5 In the 18th and 19th centuries, Bible scholars spurred on by the new study of comparative religions latched on to this idea.6 They claimed that because the early Christians didn’t know when Jesus was born, they simply assimilated the pagan solstice festival for their own purposes, claiming it as the time of the Messiah’s birth and celebrating it accordingly.More recent studies have shown that many of the holiday’s modern trappings do reflect pagan customs borrowed much later, as Christianity expanded into northern and western Europe./COLOR] The Christmas tree, for example, has been linked with late medieval druidic practices. This has only encouraged modern audiences to assume that the date, too, must be pagan.
There are problems with this popular theory, however, as many scholars recognize. Most significantly, the first mention of a date for Christmas (c. 200) and the earliest celebrations that we know about (c. 250–300) come in a period when Christians were not borrowing heavily from pagan traditions of such an obvious character.Granted, Christian belief and practice were not formed in isolation. Many early elements of Christian worship—including eucharistic meals, meals honoring martyrs and much early Christian funerary art—would have been quite comprehensible to pagan observers. Yet, in the first few centuries C.E., the persecuted Christian minority was greatly concerned with distancing itself from the larger, public pagan religious observances, such as sacrifices, games and holidays. This was still true as late as the violent persecutions of the Christians conducted by the Roman emperor Diocletian between 303 and 312 C.E.This would change only after Constantine converted to Christianity. From the mid-fourth century on, we do find Christians deliberately adapting and Christianizing pagan festivals. A famous proponent of this practice was Pope Gregory the Great, who, in a letter written in 601 C.E. to a Christian missionary in Britain, recommended that local pagan temples not be destroyed but be converted into churches, and that pagan festivals be celebrated as feasts of Christian martyrs. At this late point, Christmas may well have acquired some pagan trappings. But we don’t have evidence of Christians adopting pagan festivals in the third century, at which point dates for Christmas were established. [/COLORth]us, it seems unlikely that the date was simply selected to correspond with pagan solar festivals.
The December 25 feast seems to have existed before 312—before Constantine and his conversion, at least. As we have seen, the Donatist Christians in North Africa seem to have know it from before that time. Furthermore, in the mid- to late fourth century, church leaders in the eastern Empire concerned themselves not with introducing a celebration of Jesus’ birthday, but with the addition of the

 

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December date to their traditional celebration on January 6.7
There is another way to account for the origins of Christmas on December 25: Strange as it may seem, the key to dating Jesus’ birth may lie in the dating of Jesus’ death at Passover. This view was first suggested to the modern world by French scholar Louis Duchesne in the early 20th century and fully developed by American Thomas Talley in more recent years.8 But they were certainly not the first to note a connection between the traditional date of Jesus’ death and his birth.
Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar.9 March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception.10 Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.dThis idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.”11 Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice.Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c. 399–419) he writes: “For he [Jesus] is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th.”12In the East, too, the dates of Jesus’ conception and death were linked. But instead of working from the 14th of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, the easterners used the 14th of the first spring month (Artemisios) in their local Greek calendar—April 6 to us. April 6 is, of course, exactly nine months before January 6—the eastern date for Christmas. In the East too, we have evidence that April was associated with Jesus’ conception and crucifixion. Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis writes that on April 6, “The lamb was shut up in the spotless womb of the holy virgin, he who took away and takes away in perpetual sacrifice the sins of the world.”13 Even today, the Armenian Church celebrates the Annunciation in early April (on the 7th, not the 6th) and Christmas on January 6.e/COLOR]Thus, we have Christians in two parts of the world calculating Jesus’ birth on the basis that his death and conception took place on the same day (March 25 or April 6) and coming up with two close but different results (December 25 and January 6).
Connecting Jesus’ conception and death in this way will certainly seem odd to modern readers, but it reflects ancient and medieval understandings of the whole of salvation being bound up together. One of the most poignant expressions of this belief is found in Christian art. In numerous paintings of the angel’s Annunciation to Mary—the moment of Jesus’ conception—the baby Jesus is shown gliding down from heaven on or with a small cross (see photo of detail from Master Bertram’s Annunciation scene); a visual reminder that the conception brings the promise of salvation through Jesus’ death.
The notion that creation and redemption should occur at the same time of year is also reflected in ancient Jewish tradition, recorded in the Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud preserves a dispute between two early-second-century C.E. rabbis who share this view, but disagree on the date: Rabbi Eliezer states: “In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born; on Passover Isaac was born…and in Nisan they [our ancestors] will be redeemed in time to come.” (The other rabbi, Joshua, dates these same events to the following month, Tishri.)14 Thus, the dates of Christmas and Epiphany may well have resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies: Jesus would have been conceived on the same date he died, and born nine months later.15
In the end we are left with a question: How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own too.

 

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So there was a gradual build-up to saying “this is what we will celebrate”.

Research Emperor Constantine I and his desire to unify the Roman Empire in 312?AD. Research how all other pagan religions were worshiping on Sunday for their god “Sol Invictus”. Research how Constantine wanted peace so he “suggested” that the pope change the holy day. Research how - prior to the change - there were Popes, a Catholic Church and Christianity (spread throughout nations for more than 200 years during persecution) who’s holyday was Sabbath day. This is historical fact. This is not a general pagan influence…this is substancial. But now you’ll probably go and say, “yeah we copied, but we made the day holy with meaning”, yet you will not have an answer to, “are you following what God - and the Messiah - ‘SAID’ to follow?”
Sabbath to Sunday
What Really Happened Under Constantine?
You may have heard the story of how Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday. According to the story, the early churches kept the Sabbath until Constantine, being the high priest of paganism and honoring the sun god, changed the Sabbath, the 7th day, to the day of the sun, the 1st day.

Constantine the Great
(public domain)

The story isn’t true.If you came to this page from my Sabbath page, then you know that the churches prior to Constantine didn’t keep the Jewish Sabbath. They did not refrain from work on the seventh day of the week (or on the 1st day, either), so there was no Sabbath-keeping for Constantine to put an end to.

There was an issue that Constantine and the Council of Nicea did have to address that concerned Sunday. That issue had been debated for at least two centuries prior to Constantine’s day …

The Quartodeciman Controversy
The early churches observed passover each year, which they called pascha in Greek, a word meaning suffering and referring to Christ’s suffering before and upon the cross.

There was a question as to whether it was best to observe Passover on Nisan 14, the day the Jews celebrated it, no matter which day of the week it fell on, or whether to observe it on the Sunday nearest Nisan 14. The early church made a special day of Sunday, but not because it was a day consecrated to the sun god, as is often suggested by Sabbath-keepers. Instead, they consecrated Sunday as the Lord’s Day, the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.

 

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More

The Lord’s day was not a day of rest but a day of rejoicing. It was a tradition with the early churches not to kneel on Sunday because it was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead. Thus, it was to be a day of celebration, and they did not kneel or fast (De Corona 3).It was very difficult to settle the Passover question.

The early churches had two ways of settling controversies. One was to resort to the Scriptures. The other was to consult the tradition the apostles had given to the churches.

Paul assigns great importance to such tradition, telling both the Corinthians (1 Cor. 11:2) and the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 2:15) to hold fast to his traditions. He specifically told the Thessalonians that they were to do so whether the traditions were written or verbal.

In this case, however, the Scriptures had nothing to say, and the traditions handed down to the various churches differed:
Anicetus [bishop of Rome] could not persuade Polycarp [bishop of Smyrna, an eastern church] to forego the observance [of Nisan 14], since these things had always been observed by John the disciple of the Lord and by the other apostles with whom [Polycarp] had been conversant. On the other hand, Polycarp couldn’t persuade Anicetus to keep [Nisan 14] either. For [Anicetus] maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the elders who preceded him. In this state of affairs they held fellowship with each other. (“Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus” from The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I)
When the Council of Nicea met in A.D. 325, the controversy had never been settled. The west still held to one practice, and the east another.

The Council of Nicea Chooses Sunday
The Council of Nicea—a council attended and somewhat led by Constantine—did make a decision for Sunday, but not to change the Sabbath to Sunday. Instead, they ruled only on the question of the celebration of Passover. The church had been meeting on Sunday for centuries.
A.D. 110:

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death … (Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians 9)
It should be obvious that the Lord’s Day is the first day of the week, but people have argued and written books to the effect that the Lord’s day is the Sabbath. These are the same people who have produced the myths about Constantine changing the Sabbath to Sunday and the fabricated history about the early Church keeping the Sabbath.*
As you can see, Ignatius contrasts the Lord’s day with the Sabbath, and he tells us that it is the day “on which also our life has sprung up again by him.” He is referring to the first day of the week, which we now call Sunday.A.D. 150:

Justin doesn’t bother referring to the Lord’s day or the first day of the week. A Roman living in Rome and writing to a Roman emperor, he is content to refer to the day in Roman terminology: the day of the sun, or Sunday.And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. … [then a description of communion given as well] (Justin Martyr, First Apology 67)
As you can see, Christians had been meeting on Sunday since the first century.

So here is what the Council of Nicea did decree. This is from the synodal letter sent out after the council:

Did the Council of Nicea call Passover Easter?
Since the synodal letter of the Council of Nicea was originally written in Greek, I’m pretty sure that this letter would have used the Greek Pascha, meaning Passover not Easter. I highly suspect that Easter is simply an incorrect translation given to Pascha, something that was common enough in the past that the King James Version did it in Acts 12:4.

At the moment, I’m not sure how to find out, as I don’t know where to get a copy of that synodal letter in Greek. I’ll let you know if I find something.
We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the beginning. (“The Synodal Letter” from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, series 2, vol. XIV)RE

 

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Conclusion
As you can see, The only decision the Council of Nicea made about Sunday was that Passover would be celebrated on the Sunday nearest Nisan 14, rather than on Nisan 14 itself. The idea that Constantine and the Council of Nicea changed the Sabbath to Sunday from Saturday is simply a myth.It is important to point out that Constantine did make an edict, in 324, the year before the Council of Nicea, mandating worship of the Supreme God on Sunday (Gonzalez, Justo, The Story of Christianity, p. 123). This could be seen as honoring Christians, for whom Sunday was the Lord’s day, but it could also be seen as honoring the sun god as well.

Either way, the idea that Constantine or the Council of Nicea changed the Sabbath to Sunday from Saturday is simply false. The Christian Sabbath was never Saturday or any other day of the week, so there was nothing for Constantine to change.
THE SABBATH
Let no one judge you concerning food or drink, or in regard to a feast, new moon, or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body belongs to Christ.

–Paul the Apostle, Colossians 2:16-17, c. A.D. 60

Those who have been brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath but living in observance of the Lord’s day.

–Ignatius, Magnesians 10, A.D. 110

Why Don’t Christians Keep the Sabbath?
The Forum in Rome

Surely most of us who have read the Bible extensively have wondered why Christians don’t keep the Sabbath. There at least seems to be several reasons that we should.

•We talk about the ten commandments, and we seem to believe that Christians should keep them. The Sabbath is one of those commandments.
•When the command to keep the Sabbath is given, God says the reason for it is that he rested on the 7th day of creation (Ex. 20:11). Surely that reason hasn’t changed!
•The Israelites were told to keep the Sabbath “throughout their generations” and as a “perpetual covenant.”
•There are several prophecies that most Christians understand to be future that refer to the weekly Sabbath (e.g.; Is. 66:23; Ezek. 46:3)*

 

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Today, most Protestants will tell you that we don’t keep the Sabbath because that’s the Law, and we’re not under the Law. The Roman Catholic church will tell you that they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday by the authority God has given them. In the 19th century and earlier, most Protestants would have agreed with the Roman Catholics on that issue. They would have refrained from working on Sunday, which they called—and still do call—the Lord’s day.

What’s the truth? What should we be doing.

The Apostles’ Churches Did Not Keep the Sabbath
Christians will be arguing about what the Bible says—about the Sabbath and many other issues—until the day of Jesus Christ. There’s little doubt about that, and my opinion of what the Bible truly teaches is not going to mean much to those who disagree.

However, there are some clear, objective issues I can settle for you, and one of them is whether the churches the apostles started kept the Sabbath.

The answer is no, they did not keep the Sabbath. Despite the fact that several whole books have been written arguing that they did, it is very clear they did not.

I have very little regard for the honesty of the people who wrote those books. No one who actually researches the era from the apostles to the Nicene Creed could possible come away wondering whether those churches kept the Sabbath. They would know that they didn’t.
It’s hard to carry much more authority than that without actually being one of the original I gave you one quote above, from Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the Magnesians. Ignatius is not a nobody. Ignatius was the overseer of the church in Antioch. Antioch was Paul’s home church, and Ignatius was appointed to that position by the apostle John.It’s hard to carry much more authority then that without actually being one of the apostlesyourself.

No early Christian after him disagrees with him on the Sabbath.

I hope those quotes will be clear enough. It’s very frustrating that books written by Sabbath-keepers have been so willingly dishonest, or the quotes on that page would be decisive for everyone. As it is, with those books clouding the issue, you could be left with doubts even after seeing the absolute consistency of so many quotes over several centuries.

I have some confidence, however, that because my quotes can be looked up and verified and because their context is obvious, any confusion caused by those books will evaporate after reading what the early church itself had to say on the subject.

 

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Why Didn’t Those Early Christians Keep the Sabbath
Actually, in their opinion, they did keep the Sabbath. They did not keep the Sabbath in the sense of refraining from work on the seventh day. They did keep the Sabbath in the sense that they kept the rest of the Law of Moses. They kept it in its extended and filled sense.
Briefly, if you don’t want to immediately read the page I just linked, the “extended and filled” sense of the Law is the sense Jesus gave the Law of Moses in Matthew 5. There you read Jesus repeatedly saying, "You have heard it said … but I say to you … "

So the “extended and filled” sense is that rather than just avoiding murder, we’re to avoid anger and hatred. Rather than merely avoiding adultery, we’re to refrain even from lust. Rather than fulfilling just our oaths, we’re to follow through on our every word.

And rather than just rest on the 7th day, we’re to sanctify each and every day to the Lord.

If … anyone can now sanctify the day which God has sanctified except by being pure in heart in all things, then we are deceived. Behold, therefore, it is certain that we properly rest and sanctify it when we are able to work righteousness because we have received the promise and wickedness no longer exists because all things have been made new by the Lord. Then we shall be able to sanctify it because we are first sanctified ourselves. (Letter of Barnabas 15, c. A.D. 130)
The new law requires you to keep perpetual Sabbath, and you [Jews], because you are idle for one day, suppose you are godly, not understanding why this command was given to you. (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew 12, c. A.D. 150)We learn from Scripture itself that God gave circumcision … as a sign. … Ezekiel the prophet says the same concerning the Sabbaths: "I gave them my Sabbaths to be a sign between me and them … " … These things, then, were given as a sign, but the signs were not lacking symbolism … since they were given by a wise Artist; the circumcision of the flesh typified that which was of the Spirit. … But the Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God’s service. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies IV:16:1, c. A.D. 185)
To the early churches, the way to keep the Sabbath was to rest in Christ, experience his power and holiness, and thus sanctify every day to the Lord. The Scriptures seem to agree with this.In Hebrews 4, the writer contrasts the 7th day Sabbath (v. 4) with a later rest that we must enter into (vv. 8-9). The writer of Hebrews tell us that we are to “labor to enter into that rest.”

Conclusion and Further Links
This is the rest that is prescribed by the expanded, filled law of the Lord Jesus Christ that he spoke of in Matthew 5 (again, see The Law of Moses for a more thorough explanation).

The early churches did not keep the Sabbath in the sense of resting on Saturday. They did not, however, simply replace Saturday with Sunday. Instead, the Sabbath they kept was a daily rest in Christ and a sanctification of each and every day in the Lord, what Justin called a “perpetual Sabbath.”

 

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The Lord’s Day: Sabbath or Sunday/?COLOR]
The earliest reference we have to the Lord’s day, besides the vague comment made in the Book of Revelation (1:10), is in the letter to the Magnesians written by Ignatius of Antioch in A.D. 110:

If those who have been brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath but living in observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and his death …
The Lord’s day is the day on which “our life has sprung up again by him.” In other words, it is the day of Jesus’ resurrection, the first day of the week.*The Letter of Barnabas, written not long afterward, explains further:

God] says to them, “Your new moons and Sabbaths I cannot endure.” You understand what he’s saying. Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but the Sabbath I have made is. When I give rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day; that is, a beginning of another world. Therefore we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose from the dead. (ch. 15)
Barnabas goes on to say that ‘keeping the day’ means being pure in heart in all things rather than refraining from working, as the Jews do. Justin Martyr, writing around A.D. 150, concurs with Barnabas:

The new law requires you to keep perpetual Sabbath, and you [Jews], because you are idle for one day, suppose you are godly, not understanding why this command was given to you. (Dialogue with Trypho 12)
I have explained on another page that the early Church kept perpetual Sabbath. In other words, they sanctified each and every day by resting in Christ and living holy.So in
Observing the Lord’s Day
Ignatius has told us that we ought to “observe” the Lord’s day, and Barnabas has told us that the early what manner did they “keep” the eighth day, which is the equivalent of the first day?
Christians “keep” that day. In what way did they do this?

The key is in Barnabas’ comment that they kept the eighth day “with joyfulness.”

The first day was the day upon which Christ rose. Therefore it was to be celebrated. Tertullian tells us that it was considered unlawful to fast or kneel on the Lord’s Day. Clement adds that a person keeps the Lord’s day when he “abandons an evil disposition.”

When the Lord’s day is not dragged into a controversy over the Sabbath, it is very simple to understand. It was the day upon which Christ rose, and the early church celebrated it by by not kneeling or fasting upon that day. It was also the day of their primary Christian meeting, as Justin Martyr points out:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read … [further description of the Sunday meeting is given here]. (First Apology 67)
And that Kiddies is history-real not cartoon, agenda driven history-just history.

 

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---

I know not many of us do, but I wonder…

Indeed, what if it’s not a matter of what one religion does versus another when it comes to the holidays?

What if we are Christians…the same as defined as followers of the God of Israel…the same God of Israel that gave the Jews laws and instructions to follow? How is it that we can arbitrarily choose to follow our own…because of what we believe are more important aspects of our relationship with God?

What we “feel” are most important is fine, but what did God (of Israel) “say” to do?

What if God (of Israel) is quoted as saying He does not change [so he has not change] and is the same forever [so He’s the same now as He was back then]?

What if God (of Israel) is quoted as saying that rememberance of His Laws shows as a perpetual (continuous, everlasting, daily) covenant with Him?

What if God is quoted as saying that we should not take anything from pagan religions…even if it IS to be converted and used in worship of Him (God of Israel)?

What if the Messiah - himself a Jew - is on record as honoring certain Jewish Holidays; that He is on record commanding people to follow God’s Laws (the very same of the OT); that He is on record as saying He hasn’t come to destroy the Laws of God (OT); the very same Jewish Messiah we all claim to follow, as Christians today?

What if God is quoted commanding us to use the heavenly stars as our yearly calendar and as a sign of major events and Holy days?

What if God is quoted as commanding us that a new year starts only when the Barley has reached its highest in the field; and based on a Luna cycle (instead of a Solar cycle)?

What if the birth of the Messiah is preceeded by ‘something’ that occurred in the stars of heaven…something that would corroborate on this calendar we are supposed to follow, as a specific day?

What if we hold Sacred Tradition (and religious tradition) as more important; more sacred than the words (and Word) of God (of Israel); of the very Christ we follow “thus saith the Lord”]?

What if we as followers of the God of Israel (whatever christian religion), are only supposed to honor the Sabbaths of God as Holy Days?

What if the prophet Daniel(well if we are honoring all things Israelite then you have to say Daniel was NOT a prophet is writing is not among the Neviim but among the Kethuvim) is recorded as having a vision of an “enemy” who sought to change God’s original “times” & “laws” (calendar and commandments)?

What if that “enemy” was indeed successful at changing the times & laws of our faith hundreds of years ago?

What if I told you that every major holiday we hold in reverence today - with exception of secular days - can be found on the luciferian calendar as their Holy days [from official source]…everything from Groundhogs Day to Yule? Look it up.

Yea, I did and a bigger pack of garbage and nonsense I’ve never seen- is that history for you?