Why Christians Should Accept Psychic Phenomena

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Really as christians we can only view psychic phenomena through the lense of what was natural in our original state. Then was a profound unity experienced. One reason was because of the penetrating gaze that is natural to a soul with an unobstructed view. Earthly life didn’t end when the body could no longer be animated by the soul. It ended in elevation body and soul. Imagine human life without graveyards. Imagine human life connected to the generations who came before.

That relationship, before the fall, that would have been between those who live on earth and those who’s earthly life has ended. Imagine the profound connection if death didn’t obstruct communion between human life on earth and human life that has transcended it’s earthly life.

Because this unimagineably intimate connection is natural to human life in it’s original state I think all the phenomena experienced by psychics, are remnants of the natural powers of human life in it’s original state. How one defines the experience and the terminology used to express it depends on the reality construct the reciever operates from.

Most (not all) psychic phenomena, while real, puts one in contact with “entities” that are not from God.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Again, of course, this is only conjecture, since you, I, and the entire scientific community do not and never will understand what it is like to exist outside of the universe.

Betcha a dollar we will.

OTOH, maybe not as I ascribe to the word “universe” the meaning “comprising all that exists.” Including the other dimensions.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Most (not all) psychic phenomena, while real, puts one in contact with “entities” that are not from God.

Can you cite the research that has proven this to be factual?

Most psychism is just about information, there are scientists, good old solid atheistic scientists working on theories of how the information transfer occurs using models based on energy fields.

You know, there are all kinds of waves moving through the space around you all of the time that you don’t perceive. If you start hearing a blues guitar no one else can one day, it doesn’t mean anything beyond you getting unexpected information in a way you might not understand if you’ve never heard of people picking up radio transmissions through metal fillings.

Information that comes to us anomalously, or “psychically” is neither necessarily from God or from anyone else. It’s just that some folks get stuff others don’t, and lots of folks get stuff and don’t even know they do and the explanation will someday be as natural to the world as how bumblebees tell each other where the good flowers are or what a desert mirage is or what causes Northern Lights.

Of course, the whole of Creation is of God, and so, this is one of His wonders and part of His plan. I’m just saying that the assertion that “most” psychic phenomena put you in contact with some sort of “entities” is not supportable as far as I know.

 

[greylorn]

Really as christians we can only view psychic phenomena through the lense of what was natural in our original state. Then was a profound unity experienced. One reason was because of the penetrating gaze that is natural to a soul with an unobstructed view. Earthly life didn’t end when the body could no longer be animated by the soul. It ended in elevation body and soul. Imagine human life without graveyards. Imagine human life connected to the generations who came before.

That relationship, before the fall, that would have been between those who live on earth and those who’s earthly life has ended. Imagine the profound connection if death didn’t obstruct communion between human life on earth and human life that has transcended it’s earthly life.

Because this unimagineably intimate connection is natural to human life in it’s original state I think all the phenomena experienced by psychics, are remnants of the natural powers of human life in it’s original state. How one defines the experience and the terminology used to express it depends on the reality construct the reciever operates from.

Most of what you’ve written here depends upon some mysterious “original natural state” which seems well defined in your mind, but which may not go much beyond that. I, for example, haven’t the slightest idea what you are talking about or referring to.

For reference I have Catholic Genesis lore to fall back upon. I interpret that ore to mean that two ignorant, uneducated human beings whose language skills were probably limited to point-and-grunt linguistics, were placed in a benefit laden, work-free environment to play with the animals but not with themselves. And although they had all the parts necessary to procreate the human race, they had no clue about how to use them. When they ate some magic fruit and acquired “knowledge,” which in their case seems to have consisted of figuring out what every rodent already knows, they were kicked out of their comfy environment.

That’s the description of the “original natural state” that I and billions of others grew up with, and from my current perspective, it seems a pretty sorry state of ignorance and irresponsibility. Yet, I admit that, based upon common afterlife beliefs, most Christians seem to desire, even crave that very state of personal irresponsibility.

IMO the obstruction between the “dead” and the living is not death, but an intransigent, dogmatic state of belief on the part of the “living,” and the uninspired ignorance on the part of the dead as to the purpose of their own limited but continuing being.

 

[greylorn]

Granted I hold my degree in physics, I would say that I have as reasonable a concept as can be expected.

I see that you are not educated in Catholic end-times theology… I’m not asserting that we have our physical bodies outside of a physical universe. Instead, we teach that our bodies rest in the grave until the final judgement (when we die, we only go through the particular judgement), at which point the earth… and assumably the whole universe… is remade and perfected. I can’t tell you exactly what that means, only that there will be a new world on which we will reside in our bodies… I can’t even tell you whether or not that world will involve any of the same physical laws as this one does.

So I guess I can forgive your snark because of your ignorance of catholic theology.

Of course I have no clue about anything that happens outside the universe. You don’t either. No one has any clue. If there were continuity of laws between the inside and the outside of the universe, there would be an outside to begin with.

However, I have a theory based on the book “Imagining the Tenth Dimension”:

If we consider a two dimensional existance encountering a three dimensional cube, what does the being in the two dimensional existance perceive? Answer: a playing card of zero width. At that point it’s possible for said being to touch anywhere in the cube without actually entering the cube. The same might be said if we collapse all dimensions (including time), which would explain how a being of singular existance could touch all places and all times at the same eternal “moment”

Again, of course, this is only conjecture, since you, I, and the entire scientific community do not and never will understand what it is like to exist outside of the universe.

Actually I’m well versed in Catholic post-demise beliefs, having once been a serious Catholic. It is just that they all strike me as illogical, unscientific, and inconsistent with motivational sense. I’ve yet to hear a competent explanation for why an omniscient being would create a universe and populate even one planet with such dreadfully slow-witted and dull-minded creatures as the glut of human beings infesting poor, polluted Earth.

I don’t suppose that you’d venture a guess as to why, after he terminates our planet he would create another one, much less another universe with different laws of physics, just to accommodate the desires of slow-witted humans to continue watching TV sitcoms forever in peace and happiness, like fat slugs?

I note that even on CAF there are a variety of styles which seek to fold medieval beliefs into principles of physics, astronomy, and biological evolution. None really work. All require made-up, unverifiable beliefs, such as yours.

Personally I find it more profitable to understand God through physics rather than beyond it, and to seek Him within the physical universe— if only because that is the only place within which we can actually look.

 

[greylorn]

I don’t believe you have read my comments in their entirety. So here’s what I said on the subject matter of the OP:

I don’t see any wood-gathering here. I agree with your assertion of communication/action after death. I readily accept psychic phenomena in our world though I remain skeptical of those who are using it for worldly gain. All I’ve said otherwise is that I don’t think your OP is a definitive proof that one should accept psychic phenomena.

I accept your correction. I had read your comments, but was not being mindful of them when posting my complaint. Kindly accept my apology.

I don’t think that my OP is definite proof of anything either— perhaps you would regard it as it was intended, why Christians should (not must) accept psi.

A side curiosity. What’s the matter with using psi for personal gain? How is a psychic going to use her/his skills for human benefit without recompense?

For example, I’ve developed a part-psychic but technically hypnotic technique (telepathy is very effective under hypnonsis) which I’ve used to very positive effect on several people. However, the work takes time and considerable energy— afterward, I’m pretty much worthless for hours. I’ve never charged money for this work, but, I’ve also chosen to turn down requests for help which have come about because of referrals.

Why? My day job requires a focused mind. Its purpose is to provide my living, plus free up a bit of time and mind which I use to write. I could quit the day job and do psychic work, perhaps two people daily, but cannot afford to do so without getting paid for the time. So I don’t do the work, and people don’t benefit.

Don’t see where “personal approval” comes in, but why wouldn’t there be a common reason behind every OP? Isn’t the internet forum meant to be for the transmission of ideas and thoughts from one person to many or starting a discussion about some topic (via question or statement form). Isn’t that what you are actually doing here?

People are quite different in terms of needs and motivations. While it is safe to assume that everyone starting a thread wants to make a discussion of it, I’ve encountered many OPs who do not participate in the threads they initiate. Are they really lurkers who are trying to select a discussion to lurk over? They are surely not participants in a discussion.

I have initiated threads from a variety of personal motivations.
Sometimes I’m curious as to what people think, but more often I already know what they think and am simply verifying my opinions. Sometimes I try to teach. Other times I’ll experiment with ways to explain a difficult concept. I’ve even posted to express personal annoyance with a TV program.

If one person can post from a variety of motivations, others are surely doing so.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Can you cite the research that has proven this to be factual?

Most psychism is just about information, there are scientists, good old solid atheistic scientists working on theories of how the information transfer occurs using models based on energy fields.

You know, there are all kinds of waves moving through the space around you all of the time that you don’t perceive. If you start hearing a blues guitar no one else can one day, it doesn’t mean anything beyond you getting unexpected information in a way you might not understand if you’ve never heard of people picking up radio transmissions through metal fillings.

Information that comes to us anomalously, or “psychically” is neither necessarily from God or from anyone else. It’s just that some folks get stuff others don’t, and lots of folks get stuff and don’t even know they do and the explanation will someday be as natural to the world as how bumblebees tell each other where the good flowers are or what a desert mirage is or what causes Northern Lights.

Of course, the whole of Creation is of God, and so, this is one of His wonders and part of His plan. I’m just saying that the assertion that “most” psychic phenomena put you in contact with some sort of “entities” is not supportable as far as I know.

Let me put it to you this way, JuliaMae-------

Again, like Paul said---------“test the spirits”---------------(the Catholic Church tells you to do this, too):

If you call out the name of Jesus and/or the Trinity and these voices disappear and/or the “spirits” vanish, what does that tell you? I know of many Ex-New Agers who have cast out these supposedly “friendly” spirits simply by uttering Jesus’s name. If these beings are so “benign” or just “neutral,” then why do they seemingly reject the name and invocation of lil ole Jesus?

Let me put it to you yet another way-----------
How do you know that that soirit which it is your dear and recently deceased sister Chloe is REALLY your dear and recently deceased sister Chloe? It could be really a demonic entity PRETENDING to be Chloe, you know.

Attached to that is the fact is the fact that there are a myriad of interpretations as to what is going on, you know-----------

Did you know that, according to some demonologists and ex-Satanists, most of us have our own personal devil that is “with us” constantly and knows almost everything that we have said or done? They supposedly are sent there by Satan to find ways for them to totally take hold us and “convert” us over to the Dark one’s side> Just totally bidding their time.

Have you ever thought that maybe your “sister Chloe” knows things that only SHE coud have known about you because “Chloe” is actually that demonic entity that knows everything about you anyway? Again, how can you tell?

I’m willing to admit that some of these spirits may not be demonic and neither good nor bad------but not from “God”----fairies may be an example----the point is------do you still want to deal with beings that are not godly anyway?

Again------------------I believe in spirits and the supernatural-------but I agree with the Church; on the whole, unless you can deal with these things in a certain, totally detached way, it is best to not get involved with spirits and things like these. Mainly because of the risk------just too great. And if you should happen to-----test the spirits. You’d be surprised. That is my “proof.”

 

[Julia_Mae]

Let me put it to you this way, JuliaMae-------

Again, like Paul said---------“test the spirits”---------------(the Catholic Church tells you to do this, too):

If you call out the name of Jesus and/or the Trinity and these voices disappear and/or the “spirits” vanish, what does that tell you?

Last post you said something simply outside the realm of any sort of reality about psychism. Now you seem to have switched to mediumship. Many mediums incorporate serious prayer and devotional exercises, especially the Catholic ones and almost all the genuine mediums I know of were raised Catholic.

Did you know that, according to some demonologists and ex-Satanists,

*Satanists? * srsly? I cannot possibly convey to you the utter lack of interest I have in anything anyone like this would say on this topic.

I know of many Ex-New Agers who have cast out these supposedly “friendly” spirits simply by uttering Jesus’s name. If these beings are so “benign” or just “neutral,” then why do they seemingly reject the name and invocation of lil ole Jesus?

Again: no idea what you are on about, but nothing whatsoever having to do with mediumship. I do believe you are the victim of a few drama queens. When you know “of” something, you have heard or read. You have not experienced or known.

Let me put it to you yet another way-----------
How do you know that that soirit which it is your dear and recently deceased sister Chloe is REALLY your dear and recently deceased sister Chloe? It could be really a demonic entity PRETENDING to be Chloe, you know.

No, it really can’t. Because you have no familiarity with the way this works, you are imagining scenarios that simply do not happen.

What’s worse, and problematic for a Catholic: you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You are ascribing that which is of God to something demonic. How about we listen to Jesus Christ: you know by the fruits.

Overall, the fruits of mediumship when you look at the responses of the receivers is: a return to faith, conversion of atheists, unshakeable belief in God and the afterlife, increase in church attendance, increase in personal prayer life.

What do the people on the other side say when they come through? Well, mostly they identify themselves to be validated by the receiver. They rarely ask for anything and when they do it is for more prayer or a continuation of prayer, sometimes they want the receiver to make peace in the family. Most of all, they want us to know that we are not separated from them, that our relationships of love and caring with our family and friends transcends death. Our loved ones who have passed are still our moms and dads and children and siblings and grandparents and friends and neighbors.

There’s also something that all those who actually are experts in the Church agree on: nothing demonic can transmit Divine Peace to you except God. And while this does not always accompany an experience, it happens fairly often.

Attached to that is the fact is the fact that there are a myriad of interpretations as to what is going on

,

That’s a waste of time, mediums already know what is going on, there are books and books written by them. It’s not a secret.

most of us have our own personal devil that is “with us” constantly

Citation from the Church to substantiate this?

I’m willing to admit that some of these spirits may not be demonic and neither good nor bad------but not from “God”----fairies may be an example

I’m sorry… *fairies? *

I think you are speaking with people who aren’t very well-educated about these processes and certainly aren’t speaking in any way in terms of the beliefs of Catholic Christians.

When folks try and scare others away from the kinds of miracles and manifestations of the Holy Spirit that bring the reality and Truth of Eternity to us, I would say THAT’S the work of the Liar.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Last post you said something simply outside the realm of any sort of reality about psychism. Now you seem to have switched to mediumship. Many mediums incorporate serious prayer and devotional exercises, especially the Catholic ones and almost all the genuine mediums I know of were raised Catholic.

*Satanists? * srsly? I cannot possibly convey to you the utter lack of interest I have in anything anyone like this would say on this topic.

Again: no idea what you are on about, but nothing whatsoever having to do with mediumship. I do believe you are the victim of a few drama queens. When you know “of” something, you have heard or read. You have not experienced or known.

No, it really can’t. Because you have no familiarity with the way this works, you are imagining scenarios that simply do not happen.

What’s worse, and problematic for a Catholic: you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You are ascribing that which is of God to something demonic. How about we listen to Jesus Christ: you know by the fruits.

Overall, the fruits of mediumship when you look at the responses of the receivers is: a return to faith, conversion of atheists, unshakeable belief in God and the afterlife, increase in church attendance, increase in personal prayer life.

What do the people on the other side say when they come through? Well, mostly they identify themselves to be validated by the receiver. They rarely ask for anything and when they do it is for more prayer or a continuation of prayer, sometimes they want the receiver to make peace in the family. Most of all, they want us to know that we are not separated from them, that our relationships of love and caring with our family and friends transcends death. Our loved ones who have passed are still our moms and dads and children and siblings and grandparents and friends and neighbors.

There’s also something that all those who actually are experts in the Church agree on: nothing demonic can transmit Divine Peace to you except God. And while this does not always accompany an experience, it happens fairly often.

,

That’s a waste of time, mediums already know what is going on, there are books and books written by them. It’s not a secret.

Citation from the Church to substantiate this?​

I’m sorry… *fairies? *

I think you are speaking with people who aren’t very well-educated about these processes and certainly aren’t speaking in any way in terms of the beliefs of Catholic Christians.

When folks try and scare others away from the kinds of miracles and manifestations of the Holy Spirit that bring the reality and Truth of Eternity to us, I would say THAT’S the work of the Liar.

Firstly, Mediums are TAKEN OVER by “Higher Beings/Dead Relatives/Spirits”----that is forbidden in the Bible.
Secondly, how do we really KNOW that these supposedly friendly spirits are really the real deal? Because they say so? Because they are “trustworthy”? How do you determine THAT?

Thirdly, I was heavily into the NEW AGE before my conversion so I DO have knowledge of what I am talking about. I consulted mediums and psychics------one of whom considered herself a devout Christian and who accessed the “Akashic Records” supposedly for me. tHat was highly ironic, since belief in the “Akashic records” implies belief in things that are totally opposed to Christian and Church doctrine, including a beliuef in reincarnation. Do the mediums and psychics you know about access the “Records”? Do they espouse belief in past lives? The “Christian” ones I consulted believed in those things, among many others.

And that was was very uncharitable of you, not to mention truly Unchristian, to say I’m blaspheming against the Holy Spirit simply because I expressed my opinion about what you believe in. I didn’t accuse YOU personally of blasphemy against the Spirit; I simply said I consider what you believe in to be NOT OF GOD and to be careful. I said this from some personal experience. I did not say YOU are ungodly. BTW, I was mentioning Fairies simply because some New Agers (who DO believe in them) consider them “neither good nor bad,” unlike Demons or Angels. I didn’t say I believed them--------sorry if I gave you that impression.

As to the testimoniy of the ex-Satanists--------are you saying that the Devil cannot use mediums, psychics and the NEW AGE itself to spread his evil? Are you also implying that knowledge of how to defeat the Evil One is not worth knowing?

And you say this is all “of God”------------------

Tel you what: DON’T TAKE my WORD for anything:

Go to Johnette Benkovic’s New Age blog (you know, Women Of Grace?) on her website and ask her a question about whether psychics and mediums are in line with Catholic Christian teaching and are “Of God.” She’s sort of an expert on that.

Also go to Sharon Lee Giganti of our own Catholic Answers and Catholic Radio, who was a former New Age Corse in Miracles Law of attraction teacher whose life was almost destroyed because of her involvement in the Occult and New Age? she’s right here in CA and CA radio. Look her up and go to her website also. You might get a surprise.

Also, just read the Catechism of Holy Mother Church--------have you done that?
Then get back to us an see if you still feel the same.
Just because you say it is “Of God” does not mean it IS. Or that the Church approves of it. It is not what YOU wish is “right,” but what GOD wishes is “right.”
And don’t be making assumptions about who is or who is not “blaspheming” against the Holy Spirit when I’m not making assumptions about YOU.
Be in Peace----and have a nice day.

To the Mods:
Sorry if I accidentally veered this thread “off topic” and got slightly “personal” here. Now that I have said my piece in defense of myself, I will now take myself off this thread for good.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Actually, there is matter there, if only HIS human body!

And Her’s too …? [the promise that ultimately ours also - should we be considered blessed, will eventually be in Heaven ]

But on this one,

Actually, there is matter there, if only HIS human body!

I think you really hit it right out of the park () :

The corporeal transends time and space and exists in eternity - in the infinite glory of God ; and then all of this (Him) , comes to us again to be present in time and space during the Consecration , each time the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is offered.

The mystological implications of the aforementioned denote the infinite humility and power of God simultaneously (and really do dwarf the field of psychic phenomena, when we consider that, as Catholics, we can share fully in these sacred mysteries each day during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass).

 

[NeedImprovement]

…There’s also something that all those who actually are experts in the Church agree on: nothing demonic can transmit Divine Peace to you except God…

I’m sure it isn’t intentional, but the wording of the phrase above implies that God is demonic .

A few suggested clearer expressions of that sentiment would be:

• Nothing demonic can transmit Divine Peace to you, only God can transmit Divine Peace to you.
• Only God can transmit Divine Peace to you - nothing demonic can.
• Nothing demonic can transmit Divine Peace to you; God alone can do that.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

If you expect to survive your body’s death in soul-form, meaning as a spirit-being, you will have none of the senses you currently enjoy, and no brain to interpret their (name removed by moderator)ut. Nor will you possess a mouth and vocal chords, or a body to implement your will.

How then will you communicate, if not by telepathy? How will you act, if not via telekinesis? How will you see, if not by the same mechanisms used by out-of-body travelers— or those which Nostradamus employed to perceive events before they occurred?

(Quoted from “Digital Universe, Analog Soul,” with permission of the author.)

If psychic phenomena are natural but not-as-yet-understood inherent human powers, I have no problem with exploring them. Perhaps our methods and models for exploring mental phenomena must expand.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Firstly, Mediums are TAKEN OVER by “Higher Beings/Dead Relatives/Spirits”----.

I’m going to say something and then I think I’ll have said everything that’s useful to you as we will just be going around and around. This is incorrect. There are some mediums who allow this and work this way, they are few and far between and I doubt most of them are genuine. I have a great deal of direct experience with this and you have a lot of sources you find very convincing, so I believe we will just have to disagree.

Peace of Christ be with you.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’m sure it isn’t intentional, but the wording of the phrase above implies that God is demonic .

A few suggested clearer expressions of that sentiment would be:

• Nothing demonic can transmit Divine Peace to you, only God can transmit Divine Peace to you.
• Only God can transmit Divine Peace to you - nothing demonic can.
• Nothing demonic can transmit Divine Peace to you; God alone can do that.

uh-oh…

[SIGN]Thanks for the rewrite! [/SIGN]

(I just realized how appropriate your screen name is to this! LOL!)

 

[NeedImprovement]

uh-oh…

[SIGN]Thanks for the rewrite! [/SIGN]

(I just realized how appropriate your screen name is to this! LOL!)

( And what a fortuitous choice it turned out to be for me personally [almost prophetic ] )

 

[Julia_Mae]

( And what a fortuitous choice it turned out to be for me personally [almost prophetic ] )

OMIGOSH! Psychic is real!!

 

[greylorn]

If psychic phenomena are natural but not-as-yet-understood inherent human powers, I have no problem with exploring them. Perhaps our methods and models for exploring mental phenomena must expand.

FJ—

Your attitude is commendable! I love open minded people. You’ll find the basis for a model in the aforementioned book when it finally gets printed.

While I’ve read many books on the subject of psi and experienced some aspects of it first hand, and worked with several psychics, I’ve never encountered quite the level of experiential insight as Julia Mae’s. Reading her posts is as good a start on understanding those aspects of psi that she discusses as any you will find in books. Good luck!