why condemn the SSPX

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No one hates anyone, as far as I know, or dislikes them.
I strongly disagree. The SSPX is HATED. The Protestants, who are affectionately called “separated brethren” are loved; the heretical schismatic Orthodox are said to be a “sister Church” which is both salvific and whose members Catholics should not seek to convert; the Jews have their own covenant that was “never revoked by God”, while the SSPX are despised, caluminated and hated.

I have a true story to illustrate the point.

Several years ago there was a Catholic book fair. At this Catholic book fair, there were Protestant booths, Orthodox booths, even Jewish booths. All the colors were there, and all were allowed… all, that is, except for one. With only one hour remaining, someone noticed that one of the booths belonged to the SSPX. :eek: Security was quickly called and they were kicked out. Do you know why they were kicked out? Because they were said to be “schismatic”. But what about the Orthodox and the Protestatns who absolutely reject the office of the Pope? There was no porblem with them, only with the SSPX.

Just like St. Athanasius, the SSPX is despised because they are holding to the truth. Error can accept error, but it cannot accept those who hold fast to the truth.

And what is interesting is that the SSPX is being proven right again and again… by Rome no less. 👍 First Rome admits that pro-multis should be translated “for many” and NOT for all, which only the SSPX and other like minded “radical traditionalists” had maintained for years; and now the Pope admits that the old Mass had never been abrogated, which only the SSPX and other likemininded Traditionalists had maintained for years.

The entire hierarchy promoted the error in the translation of pro multis, and the entire hierarchy pretended that the old Mass had been abrogated. Only the SSPX and other like minded Traditionlaists were right.

Maybe you can answer this question: How was it that the SSPX knew the truth about “pro multis” and the old Mass, when none of the members of the hierarchy did (or if they did, they would not say so publicly).

And, in the coming years, what else will we find out that the SSPX has been right about the whole time? Actually, I can answer that question for you: The SSPX will be proven to have been right with its rejection of false ecumenism (such as Assisi) and it rejection of religious liberty.
 

Yes — the factual truth is becoming more clear with each thread—the prejudice some people have toward the SSPX
Oh my goodness, this is verging on paranoia!

This is like crying bigotry and prejudice when confronted with the outrageous claim that 2 +2 = 4 or that Napoleon was defeated at the Battle of Waterloo!
 
Oh my goodness, this is verging on paranoia!

This is like crying bigotry and prejudice when confronted with the outrageous claim that 2 +2 = 4 or that Napoleon was defeated at the Battle of Waterloo!

JKirk—face it–no matter how you cover it, how you perfume it—what you name it–prejudice and bigotry—are still just that.
 
I strongly disagree. The SSPX is HATED. The Protestants, who are affectionately called “separated brethren” are loved; the heretical schismatic Orthodox are said to be a “sister Church” which is both salvific and whose members Catholics should not seek to convert; the Jews have their own covenant that was “never revoked by God”, while the SSPX are despised, caluminated and hated.
From Paul: “So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

How did Christ show His Love to the Father? Through His obedience, even unto death. Without obedience, Love is nothing.

No saint has ever advocated disobedience, even in the face of truly corrupt superiors. Am I saying that the Church is corrupt? No, of course not. I am merely pointing out that the SSPX are not following the example of the Saints give us.
If you will know a tree by it’s fruit, than I know that SSPX is not a “good tree,” for the fruit of disobedience never comes from the Love of Christ.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
From Paul: “So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

How did Christ show His Love to the Father? Through His obedience, even unto death. Without obedience, Love is nothing.

No saint has ever advocated disobedience, even in the face of truly corrupt superiors. Am I saying that the Church is corrupt? No, of course not. I am merely pointing out that the SSPX are not following the example of the Saints give us.
If you will know a tree by it’s fruit, than I know that SSPX is not a “good tree,” for the fruit of disobedience never comes from the Love of Christ.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

Gee Thursday1—your post kinda reminds me of the older son in the prodigal son parable.
 
I strongly disagree. The SSPX is HATED.
2 Peter 2:20. Have they become entangled, so that their last state is worse than the first? Disobedience can do that. I bear no enmity toward them. I call them back as I do any separated Christian. Perhaps they are viewed as traitors.
 

Gee Thursday1—your post kinda reminds me of the older son in the prodigal son parable.
Not at all, I would rejoice if the SSPX came home to their (spiritual) Father. But part of that homecoming, if you recall, was the son’s willingness to put himself under the authority of his father.
The day this happens, I will be the one slaughtering the fatted calf.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
Not at all, I would rejoice if the SSPX came home to their (spiritual) Father. But part of that homecoming, if you recall, was the willingness to put himself under the authority of his father.
The day this happens, I will be the one slaughtering the fatted calf.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

Yes we will–but until that day comes—no one should be acting like the older brother --by flinging mud at them in each and every opportunity.
 

Yes we will–but until that day comes—no one should be acting like the older brother --by flinging mud at them in each and every opportunity.
You cannot have it both ways, either the SSPX is the younger son who has abandoned his father and rightly deserves rapprochement until the day he returns home, or the SSPX has never left home, and thus there is no homecoming.

If you look at it, the position of SSPX (as they see it) is that of the older brother. They feel slighted by their Father, who has welcomed home “the sinner” but does not shower them (the Faithful) with praise and blessings.

Hmmm, quite an insightful parable, thank you for bringing it up.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
You cannot have it both ways, either the SSPX is the younger son who has abandoned his father and rightly deserves rapprochement until the day he returns home, or the SSPX has never left home, and thus there is no homecoming.

If you look at it, the position of SSPX (as they see it) is that of the older brother. They feel slighted by their Father, who has welcomed home “the sinner” but does not shower them (the Faithful) with praise and blessings.

Hmmm, quite an insightful parable, thank you for bringing it up.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

The thing is—the situation is between Rome and the SSPX. It is their business --not ours. Nothing is accomplished by battering the SSPX every chance there is.
 

The thing is—the situation is between Rome and the SSPX. It is their business --not ours. Nothing is accomplished by battering the SSPX every chance there is.
But the laity is involved! If the SSPX were content to simply say masses ect for themselves (i.e. only the ordained), the situation would be very different. But that is not the case. Rome says it is dangerous (at the very least) or downright sinful to attend the Masses offered by SSPX priests, but the SSPX say it is fine. (only one of these views can be right) Both of these involve the laity.
It seems Chastising the sinner is all the rage until the sinner thinks the same thing we do.
If I saw someone jump off the side of a boat into treacherous waters, should I figure it is just a matter between the crew and the jumper, or throw them the rope I have in my hand? Or maybe I should put a sign on the railing warning of the dangers below, and maybe save several people before they jump.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
But the laity is involved! If the SSPX were content to simply say masses ect for themselves (i.e. only the ordained), the situation would be very different. But that is not the case. Rome says it is dangerous (at the very least) or downright sinful to attend the Masses offered by SSPX priests, but the SSPX say it is fine. (only one of these views can be right) Both of these involve the laity.
It seems Chastising the sinner is all the rage until the sinner thinks the same thing we do.
If I saw someone jump off the side of a boat into treacherous waters, should I figure it is just a matter between the crew and the jumper, or throw them the rope I have in my hand? Or maybe I should put a sign on the railing warning of the dangers below, and maybe save several people before they jump.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

Honestly Thursday1—threads like this reflect how prejudicial some have become and this breeds more prejudice.
 

The thing is—the situation is between Rome and the SSPX. It is their business --not ours. Nothing is accomplished by battering the SSPX every chance there is.
Some go overboard, but we have a moral duty to point error out to our beloved brothers. And disobedience is error.

I would rather be wrong but obedient than wrong and disobedient.
 

Does not seem that way. You see—apparently JPII considered the Orthodox to be just fine where they are—therefore those who leave the Church to join the Orthodox–do not seem to be in any grave situation. From what is said in the following thread Catholic --Orthodox----it doesn’t really matter.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=184816
Neverminding that your argument is predicated on what you think JP2 “apparently thought” and you point to the polemics of non-experts, not officials in another forum that carries no more weight that my official opinion on what the cheese the moon is made out of must taste like.

Find a real man, put the straw man down. That poor straw man gets one heck of a lashing in these here forums. I almost feel sorry for him.
I should’ve had this question posted with the others originally but, let’s say that Pope Benedict, or his successor, were to declare the excommunications unjust and invalid, would you still refer to the SSPX as evil? I’m not trying to smart off, it is a sincere question.
From there (the lifting of excommunications - which I cannot understand as invalid. When the Pope tells you to do, you do.)…

Well from there I would then want to know who is giving the priests of the Society faculties to hear confessions and preside over marriages. They have not submitted to a local ordinary. The bishops consecrated against the direct orders of Rome do not have jurisdiction anywhere… They have no diocese recognized by the Holy See.

From there I then want to know, under whose ecclesial and canonical competence has the SSPX been erected? Men are taking vows to superiors of an order which had been canonically suppressed well before the ordination.

Schism, Obedience and the Society of St. Pius X
 
Some go overboard, but we have a moral duty to point error out to our beloved brothers. And disobedience is error.

I would rather be wrong but obedient than wrong and disobedient.

The only thing that is coming thru–is that there is a big double standard going on. There have been those who reject our Lords divinity–and get a slap on the hand. There are some Eastern Catholics who give the Pope only primacy of honor–yet every thing is find and dandy. We have a problem and it is not the SSPX.
 

I think we should see what Pope Benedict XVI has to say about all this fuss:​

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO FIVE NEW AMBASSADORS TO THE HOLY SEE
ON THE OCCASION OF THE PRESENTATION OF THEIR
LETTERS OF CREDENCE

Clementine Hall
Thursday 18 May 2006

Likewise, peace is rooted in respect for religious freedom, which is a fundamental and primordial aspect of the freedom of conscience of individuals and of the freedom of peoples. It is important that everywhere in the world every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practise it freely without fear, for no one can base his life on the quest for material well-being alone. The acceptance of this personal and community approach will undoubtedly have beneficial effects on social life. In fact, loving the Almighty and welcoming him is an invitation to each person to serve his brethren and to build peace

(The HOLY SEE vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/may/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060518_ambassadors_en.html)

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO H.E. Mrs AYESHA RIYAZ
NEW AMBASSADOR OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN
TO THE HOLY SEE

Consistory Hall
Friday, 1st June 2007

…I encourage Pakistan to bolster its efforts in securing freedom for people to live, worship, and perform works of charity according to the dictates of their conscience and with immunity from intimidation…
I wish to conclude by expressing my deep respect and admiration for the religious heritage that has inspired the human development of your country, and continues to animate its aspirations for greater peace and mutual understanding. Christians and Muslims both worship the One God, the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. It is this belief that moves us to unite minds and hearts as we work tirelessly for peace, justice, and a better future for mankind.

** (The HOLY SEE- vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2007/june/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070601_ambassador-pakistan_en.html)**

The Pope has already made it very clear that,“everywhere in the world every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practice it freely without fear”, and “Christians and Muslims both worship the One God”.So if this is the case, it would be absurd to condemn the SSPX. If we worship the same GOD, does that mean we can practice the Muslim Faith? *You do not have to even be CHRISTIAN *so why worry about the SSPX, Unless of course you are saying Pope Benedict XVI is incorrect?😉
So I agree with the Pope not to condemn the SSPX.🙂
 

The only thing that is coming thru–is that there is a big double standard going on. There have been those who reject our Lords divinity–and get a slap on the hand. There are some Eastern Catholics who give the Pope only primacy of honor–yet every thing is find and dandy. We have a problem and it is not the SSPX.
Did those groups or organizations not only make these claims but then try to erect juridical structures outside of (and against) papal authority?

When they start to consecrate their own bishops and erect chapels outside of the permission of the local ordinary, it can be said that a double standard exists… Until such time, they are held to the same standards: consecrate your own bishops (against your agreement with the Holy See to not do so) to suit your own vision, and you will be excommunicated.

No the society did not commit those grave offenses… they committed OTHER grave offenses. Why must you persist in hiding behind other’s abuses to insist that the SSPX is “at least not as bad as X”?

The offenses by groups we are sympathetic to are more forgiveable?
 
i don’t condemn SSPX, they believed in Holy Trinity, Holy Spirit. they loved Jesus Christ, loved Virgin Mary. so why waste your time to condemn they. is just matter of time both sspx and vatican will reconciliation… our lord knew it… and TLM is the 1st step…

Deo gratias…
 
From Paul: “So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

How did Christ show His Love to the Father? Through His obedience, even unto death. Without obedience, Love is nothing.
So, would it have been appropriate for the faithful to follow the Arian Bishops, since they were the vaste majority of the hierarchy ( 97%)? Would God have been pleased with the faithful if they denied the divinity of Jesus through “obedience” to their authorities?

You mentioned faith, hope, and charity. These are the three theological virtues, which are the highest of the virtues, and without which we cannot be saved.

The theological virtue of Faith is the foundatin of the supernatural life. Without faith (the Catholic faith) we cannot have supernatural charity (which is grace). And, as we know, without charity we cannot be saved. These virtues are the highest virtues and are absolutes.

Obedience is a moral virtue. Moral virtues are not absolutes, but are a balance point between two extremes: excess and defect. A person can sin against obedience either by not obeying when they should, or in obeying when they should not.

So, for example, if we refuse to obey a just command we sin; likewise, if we obey a sinful command we also sin, and obedience does not excuse us. So, for example, the German Soldiers during WWII were guilty of sin when they obeyed their superiors commands and put the Jews (and Catholics) to death. They were put on trial after the war, and the excuse of obddience did not save them.

Now, since faith is greater than obedience, we should never obey a command that goes against faith. So, for example, we should never deny the Divinity of Jesus simply because we were commanded by the authorities to do so.

Likewise, we should not deny any other dogma of the faith simply because those in authority have denied that dogma and are teaching it.

Faith is greater than obedience; and if we are ever in a position where the two seem to be undermining one another (or in contradiction to one another), we should always hold fast to the faith, and never deny it through “obedience”.
No saint has ever advocated disobedience, even in the face of truly corrupt superiors.
We should not refuse to obey simply because a superior is corrupt. That is no excuse. However, if the superior is commanding things that are contrary to the faith, or a danger to the faith, we should not obey, since, as we know, faith is greater than obedience.

Two examples comes to mind: Joan of Arc, and St. Athanasius. Athanasius lived during a time when the faith was being denied and undermined. He stood firm for the truth even though he was banned from his diocese 4 times and excommunicated by the Pope. His disobedience was justified, and even necessary, because it was in defence of the faith.
Am I saying that the Church is corrupt? No, of course not. I am merely pointing out that the SSPX are not following the example of the Saints give us.
The situation with Athanasius is virtually a direct parallel to today. The only difference is that in St. Athanasius’ day the error only affected a certain portion of the Church, whereas today it is affecting the entire Church.

Bishop Rudolph Graber of Regensburg: “What happened over 1600 years ago [at the time of the Arian heresy] is repeating itself today, but with two or three differences: Alexandria [the patriarchal see of St. Athanasius] is today the whole universal Church, the stability of which is being shaken, and what was undertaken at that time by means of physical force and cruelty is now being transferred to a different level. Exile is replaced by banishment into silence of being ignored; killing, by assassination of character.” (Athanasius and the Church of Our Time, p. 23):
If you will know a tree by it’s fruit, than I know that SSPX is not a “good tree,” for the fruit of disobedience never comes from the Love of Christ.
Except when one is disobeying for the sake of the faith, then it is for the love of Christ. The SSPX is holding fast to what the Church has always taught and refuses to accept the errors that have been repeatedly condemned by the Popes over the past 150 years. For this, they are persecuted and hated. But they endure it all for the love of God and for the faith.

In time, the Church leaders will thank them for their faithfulness, just as the leaders later thanked Athanasius.

As as for the fruits? The fruits are a strong faith and an unwillingness to compromise. Thanks to the SSPX, and its strong stand for the Mass, the Old Mass is now making a comeback. If it wasn’t for the SSPX, it would be a thing of the past.

God has used the SSPX as a primary instrunment in this day to persevere the faith “whole and inviolate”.
 

I think we should see what Pope Benedict XVI has to say about all this fuss:​

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO FIVE NEW AMBASSADORS TO THE HOLY SEE
ON THE OCCASION OF THE PRESENTATION OF THEIR
LETTERS OF CREDENCE

Clementine Hall
Thursday 18 May 2006

Likewise, peace is rooted in respect for religious freedom, which is a fundamental and primordial aspect of the freedom of conscience of individuals and of the freedom of peoples. It is important that everywhere in the world every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practise it freely without fear, for no one can base his life on the quest for material well-being alone. The acceptance of this personal and community approach will undoubtedly have beneficial effects on social life. In fact, loving the Almighty and welcoming him is an invitation to each person to serve his brethren and to build peace

(The HOLY SEE vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/may/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060518_ambassadors_en.html)​

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO H.E. Mrs AYESHA RIYAZ
NEW AMBASSADOR OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN
TO THE HOLY SEE

Consistory Hall
Friday, 1st June 2007

…I encourage Pakistan to bolster its efforts in securing freedom for people to live, worship, and perform works of charity according to the dictates of their conscience and with immunity from intimidation…
I wish to conclude by expressing my deep respect and admiration for the religious heritage that has inspired the human development of your country, and continues to animate its aspirations for greater peace and mutual understanding. Christians and Muslims both worship the One God, the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. It is this belief that moves us to unite minds and hearts as we work tirelessly for peace, justice, and a better future for mankind.

** (The HOLY SEE- vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2007/june/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070601_ambassador-pakistan_en.html**)

That quote will provide me with a chance to show that what is being taught in our day has been formally condemned.

The quote you provided (and there are more that could be brought forward) is exactly what has been condemned. I will only provide a few quotes, which comes from the Syllabus of errors of Pope Pius IX.

In the Syllabus, the Pope gathered together a collection of 80 of the most grievious errors beginning to emerge. The following is #15, 77, and 78:

[It is an error to profess that] “Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion, which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true” (Syllabus #15, also condemned in Maxima Quiden and Multiplices Inter).

[It is an error to profess that] “In the prsent day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship” (Syllabus #77).

[It is an error to profess that] “It has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship” (Syllabus #78)

These error are being taught by virtually all of the hierarchy today, yet they have been formally condemned by the Church.
 
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