Why Couldn't the Universe Exist Without a Cause?

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Asserting that there is one and only one universe is a much stronger statement. And if it is a necessary assumption for a proof, that proof fails if the assumption is not also proven.
No one is “asserting” there is one universe. That is clearly true. There exists one universe. We don’t need to demonstrate that. What needs to be shown is that there is any reason at all to think that there is more than one. The burden is on those to who suggest there are demonstrate that. In the meantime, one universe is not only demonstrable but certain, more do no have the same ontological standing as the one does.

Apparently, you don’t seem to understand how premises function in an argument. The premise that one universe exists grounds the conclusion on that premise. The “proof” doesn’t “fail” because it is grounded on that premise. The premise continues to validly underwrite the conclusion until you can demonstrate that the premise doesn’t hold. Failing to do so, means the proof does hold until you can provide a positive reason to think it doesn’t hold.

Furthermore, your point fails to consider the accumulated case to be made for one universe as if the entire case is merely a capricious or arbitrary notion with no more or less warrant than believing in ten, a thousand or an infinitude of universes - just pick a number, one is as good as any other.
 
Do you have any concrete evidence of a mind existing without a body, for example?
No, that would be a matter of faith; just as for you the Multiverse would be a matter of faith in order to counter the idea of a Necessary First Cause of the universe.

No serious physicist or astronomer ever proposed the Multi-verse until the Big Bang became for atheists a frightening logical likelihood. Atheists had always assumed (again without proof) that the universe was infinite and eternal, and that precluded the necessity of that First Cause atheists so vehemently despise.

As I said recently in another thread, there is more than one reason atheists cannot tolerate the idea of a First Cause. But when the Big Bang required a First Cause, the atheists discovered an imaginary embarrassment of riches with the Multi-verse.
 
It doesn’t have to proven that there are many or an infinity of ‘universes’ if that is only being proposed as a possible explanation of various problems. In contrast, as the fine tuning argument relies on the assertion that there is only one universe, it does have to prove that assertion in order to stand as a proof of God.
You may need to educate me about this.

I don’t believe the fine-tuning argument ever relied on the assertion there is only one universe. It relied on the fact that there is only one universe we know of.

It is the atheists who have a vivid imagination for Multiverse if not for God. 😉

So atheism, if it is to escape the fine-tuning argument of this universe, has to assert the Multiverse without any proof whatever.
 
Why on earth would I ask Richard Dawkins to clarify what you meant when you wrote:
You should ask Dr. Dawkins why he believes that the question “Why is there something rather than nothing” is the trump card of Believers.

He’s given us a grand concession here and I owe him immensely. :tiphat:

That you didn’t know it came from him and backed yourself into this corner is, well, not my doing.
 
You should ask Dr. Dawkins why he believes that the question **“Why is there something rather than nothing?” **is the trump card of Believers.
I’ve always objected to this phrasing of that famous question.

It seems to me semantically more realistic to ask it this way:

“Why is there a universe rather than no universe?”

This latter wording precludes the retort by atheists that “Nothing cannot exist,” which is an effective answer yet skirts the substance of the question. 🤷
 
:

Can you provide equally robust, demonstrable examples of a mind existing without a physical substrate, let alone ‘outside of time and space’, or of such a being conjuring something out of nothing? Otherwise it seems that it is your explanation for the cosmos that does indeed rely on asserting the existence of things completely outside of our experience.[/INDENT]
Yes, a robust demonstrable example has been provided of a mind existing without a physical substrate. I explained it in one of my posts on another thread, with Blue Horizon, and Bradski It involves Christian Faith, and it gave witness to the existence of Jesus Christ (God-man and the Uncaused Cause) to keep this in the Philosophy Forum. I also made mention of “spiritual being” on this thread. It was brought out in space and time, made public with plenty of witnesses. Of course it can be rejected, but it also can be confirmed. It is not completely out of our existence just because you haven’t experienced the phenomenon. This Forum has some restrictions so my testimony is not complete, but sufficient. By the use of apriori reason, effect to cause, and scientific law, objective reality, it can be proven that God exists. I also know that Faith identifies who God is. True Faith is not outside of our human experience, and space and time. Science believe in theories to ascertain facts, truth. We believe in Divine Revelation to acquire the Source of Truth, and it also confirms our reasoning.
 
I’ve always objected to this phrasing of that famous question.

It seems to me semantically more realistic to ask it this way:

“Why is there a universe rather than no universe?”

This latter wording precludes the retort by atheists that “Nothing cannot exist,” which is an effective answer yet skirts the substance of the question. 🤷
Sure.

Either way it’s presented it’s the…trump card.

No atheist can answer.
 
No one is “asserting” there is one universe. That is clearly true. There exists one universe. We don’t need to demonstrate that. What needs to be shown is that there is any reason at all to think that there is more than one. The burden is on those to who suggest there are demonstrate that.
And the idea that the multiverse could exist…despite NOT A WHIT of evidence for this…remains an item of faith.

Amusingly.

I remember one thread here several years ago in which I posited that no atheist could do what Maximilian Kolbe did–that is, offer to die in the place of another, out of love.

Atheists were coming out of the woodwork saying, “How dare you! Of course atheists can do this!”

So I asked for names, of course, of these atheistic equivalents of Maximilian Kolbe. And, of course, 4 different narratives documenting this act of agape, plus (naturally) proof of their atheism.

Do you think that anyone was able to do this?

Nope.

Did that stop atheists from asserting that this phantom equivalent existed?

Nope.

They sure had faith, though, that he existed.

Odd, no?
 
And the idea that the multiverse could exist…despite NOT A WHIT of evidence for this…remains an item of faith.
PR, there can never be a faith held position on a possibility. If there is no evidence, then any given proposal remains just that. A proposal.

It would be nonsensical to say that someone who thought that there was a possibility that God exists (and you can include me in that group and please don’t offer surprise as I have said as much on many ocassions), could be said to hold that position on faith.

That there may be such a thing as the multiverse is an interesting proposition with a lot of high level physics which point to that possibility. So if someone asks me does it exist, then I would say that I consider it to be a possibility. There is no evidence one way or the other, so it remains just a possibility.

If you ask me if God exists, then without running through a few pages of ifs, buts and therefores, I would say that I would consider it a possibility. However, in this case, people present me with what they maintain is evidence and I don’t find that evidence to be credible. So my position, although bending over backwards to allow the possibility, is that my default position is that He doesn’t (although the the possibility still exists - as I said earlier, possibly in another thread, there is nothing that is absolutely certain).

Having said that, if anyone declares anything to be 100% certain, then there is a certain amount of faith inherent in that. Christians declare that God exists. Period. Zero doubt. No question about it. And again, please don’t bombard the thread with examples of atheists also declaring something to be a cast iron certainty. Dig deep enough and there will always be doubt.

Doubt is uncomfortable, but certainty is absurd. With apologies to Voltaire.
 
You in fact are using the double standard that you accuse multiverse proponents of using - you want to use the assertion that God is a possible explanation of a given problem as ‘proof’ he exists, yet are objecting to multiverse proponents allegedly making the same argument as ‘proof’ for the multiverse. Not that I have seen any serious physicist claim such a proof of the multiverse.
I don’t recall saying that. Where did I say that? :confused:

Yes, God is a possible explanation, but the proof is not in that fact. It’s in the issues of First Cause and Intelligent Design, both of which are most often repudiated by atheists who hope to prop up their position with a Multi-verse, which is a hopeless task.
 
“…That these principles serve to connect ideas will not, I believe, be much doubted. A picture naturally leads our thoughts to the original: the mention of one apartment in a building naturally introduces an enquiry or discourse concerning the others: and if we think of a wound, we can scarcely forbear reflecting on the pain which follows it. But that this enumeration is complete, and that there are no other principles of association except these, may be difficult to prove to the satisfaction of the reader, or even to a man’s own satisfaction. All we can do, in such cases, is to run over several instances, and examine carefully the principle which binds the different thoughts to each other, never stopping till we render the principle as general as possible. The more instances we examine, and the more care we employ, the more assurance shall we acquire, that the enumeration, which we form from the whole, is complete and entire.”
Indeed, it would be very difficult to prove that Resemblance, Contiguity, and Cause and Effect are the complete list of the principles of association. How could we, for instance, based only on those principles, build the complex idea of Pythagoras’ theorem? How could we build Galileo’s principle? Hume was very smart when he admitted that he could not prove the completeness of his list.

But let’s look at the details: simple ideas are continually there, at least hypothetically, in our understanding, isolated from each other. Those simple ideas are what Hume calls “impressions”, and are distinguished from those other “perceptions” that Hume calls “ideas” in that they are more “lively”. But, what does “lively” mean? Does it mean that while impressions produce strong effects on us (sensations, feelings, emotions…), ideas produce just dull effects? If simple ideas are, by themselves, isolated from each other, how is it that they can affect us?

Anyway, Hume suggests that we continually make associations between the simple ideas that emerge in our conscience. So, we produce complex ideas; we are the cause of complex ideas.… But, isn’t this an indication that “Cause and effect” is a peculiar principle of association which has to be distinguished from Resemblance and Contiguity, because it is not only an epistemological principle, but an ontological one: When our “understanding” associates ideas (either simple or complex already) by Resemblance or Contiguity, isn’t “Cause and effect” immanent there? Yes, it is there, precisely because our “understanding” is producing the complex ideas.

So, according to Hume, “Cause and Effect” is one of our principles of association that the “understanding” applies to impressions in order to form complex ideas; but he wants to know more, he wants to investigate how do we arrive at the knowledge of this principle. Here you can read his own words:

“…we must enquire how we arrive at the knowledge of cause and effect. I shall venture to affirm, as a general proposition, which admits of no exception, that the knowledge of this relation is not, in any instance, attained by reasonings a priori; but arises entirely from experience, when we find that any particular objects are constantly conjoined with each other.”

Evidently this general proposition, which according to Hume admits of no exception, was not obtained by reasonings a priori either; which implies that Hume believed there are propositions which are not obtained a priori and still are universally valid. Therefore, if he believed that the principle of “cause and effect” did not have universal validity just because it is not obtained by reasonings a priori, he was inconsistent.

Now, what does Hume mean when he says that “cause and effect” is known by experience? Is he speaking about the principle of causality or about particular cases of this principle. Let’s him explain:

“This proposition, that causes and effects are discoverable, not by reason but by experience, will readily be admitted with regard to such objects, as we remember to have once been altogether unknown to us; since we must be conscious of the utter inability, which we then lay under, of foretelling what would arise from them. Present two smooth pieces of marble to a man who has no tincture of natural philosophy; he will never discover that they will adhere together in such a manner as to require great force to separate them in a direct line, while they make so small a resistance to a lateral pressure. Such events, as bear little analogy to the common course of nature, are also readily confessed to be known only by experience; nor does any man imagine that the explosion of gunpowder, or the attraction of a loadstone, could ever be discovered by arguments a priori. In like manner, when an effect is supposed to depend upon an intricate machinery or secret structure of parts, we make no difficulty in attributing all our knowledge of it to experience. Who will assert that he can give the ultimate reason, why milk or bread is proper nourishment for a man, not for a lion or a tiger?”

So, he is speaking about cases of the principle, not about the principle, and I won’t argue that Hume is wrong on this.

I do not intend to say either that the principle of causality is obtained a priori. In several occasions I have said it is not. I just want to remark something which should be obvious: we can ignore what is the cause of a given phenomenon, but it does not mean that we will be uncertain if it has a cause or not.

But Hume had more to say…

Continues…
 

It would be nonsensical to say that someone who thought that there was a possibility that God exists (and you can include me in that group and please don’t offer surprise as I have said as much on many ocassions), could be said to hold that position on faith.

If you ask me if God exists, then without running through a few pages of ifs, buts and therefores, I would say that I would consider it a possibility. However, in this case, people present me with what they maintain is evidence and I don’t find that evidence to be credible. So my position, although bending over backwards to allow the possibility, is that my default position is that He doesn’t (although the the possibility still exists - as I said earlier, possibly in another thread, there is nothing that is absolutely certain).

Having said that, if anyone declares anything to be 100% certain, then there is a certain amount of faith inherent in that. Christians declare that God exists. Period. Zero doubt. No question about it. And again, please don’t bombard the thread with examples of atheists also declaring something to be a cast iron certainty. Dig deep enough and there will always be doubt.

Doubt is uncomfortable, but certainty is absurd. With apologies to Voltaire.
So, you entertain the possibility of the existence of God, despite not finding any credible evidence? That’s weird enough, but then you go on to say that your “default position” – meaning, where you feel most comfortable – is that He doesn’t exist (though you still maintain the possibility of God’s exisitence). Now, what’s more absurd - being absolutely convinced of God’s existence? Or waivering to the point of incoherence?
 
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stewstew03:
So, you entertain the possibility of the existence of God, despite not finding any credible evidence? That’s weird enough, but then you go on to say that your “default position” – meaning, where you feel most comfortable – is that He doesn’t exist (though you still maintain the possibility of God’s exisitence). Now, what’s more absurd - being absolutely convinced of God’s existence? Or waivering to the point of incoherence?
I don’t find Bradski’s position weird at all and I don’t think that the default position is necessarily anything to do with ‘feeling comfortable’. It has to do with intellectual honesty, I think. Furthermore I don’t see any wavering in Bradski’s stated position. It’s simply an acknowledgement that each of us may know more tomorrow than we do today.

Consider an analogy: I don’t know if the recent suggestion that there is a ninth planet in our solar system is true or not. I haven’t yet seen any compelling evidence. My default position is therefore to stick with believing that there are eight known planets, although I acknowledge the possibility that there may be more. I will keep this position until I become aware of sufficient evidence for that ninth planet. Do you find this position weird? How is your approach to this question different?
 
So, you entertain the possibility of the existence of God, despite not finding any credible evidence? That’s weird enough, but then you go on to say that your “default position” – meaning, where you feel most comfortable – is that He doesn’t exist (though you still maintain the possibility of God’s exisitence). Now, what’s more absurd - being absolutely convinced of God’s existence? Or waivering to the point of incoherence?
I’m as puzzled as Nix. Do you really think that everyone must be a believer or not in every single scenario? And that you must be 100% positive in your belief in every scenario?

If that is the case with you, stew, then you live in a much different world to the one in which I exist.

Is it he case that you either believe something or not without having any information about it? That you make your stand before anyone gets to give you any evidence? And that when you do, you either beleive 100% or…when the evidence tips the scales, disbelieve 100%?

Does the world in which you live not contain statements like: ‘I’m not really sure about that’, ‘I don’t know enough about that to make a decision’, ‘I’ll have to get some more information on that and get back to you’. You’ve never said: ‘I don’t know’?

You sound like my wife…
 
DrTaffy;13615059 said:
Asserting
that there is one and only one universe is a much stronger statement. And if it is a necessary assumption for a proof, that proof fails if the assumption is not also proven.

No one is “asserting” there is one universe. That is clearly true. There exists one universe. We don’t need to demonstrate that.

You are carefully editing what I wrote to significantly change the meaning. What I said is that asserting that there is one and only one universe is a much stronger statement that needs support.
What needs to be shown is that there is any reason at all to think that there is more than one.
That there might be more than one. Crucial difference. For which there is plenty of reason in the math.

To give a simplified version: let us assume that there are only two suggested ‘explanations’ for a given problem. One is (simplified caricature, for both) “there is a God” the other is “there is a multiverse”. Why should the multiverse be held to a much higher standard of proof than God? If anything the multiverse only proposes more of something we already know to exist, whereas the God hypothesis proposes something of which we have no previous proven examples and which poses some non trivial problems.
The burden is on those to who suggest there are demonstrate that.
Fine : you start. Demonstrate that God exists. That is the point: a double standard is being applied, often in the same argument, to arguments either asserting that God definitely does exist or merely proposing that a multiverse might exist.
Apparently, you don’t seem to understand how premises function in an argument.
:rolleyes:
The premise that one universe exists grounds the conclusion on that premise. The “proof” doesn’t “fail” because it is grounded on that premise.
The ‘proof’ is grounded on the premise that only one universe exists. And yes, any argument fails if it is grounded on an unproven premise.
The premise continues to validly underwrite the conclusion until you can demonstrate that the premise doesn’t hold.
Classic textbook argument from ignorance.
 
No, that would be a matter of faith; just as for you the Multiverse would be a matter of faith in order to counter the idea of a Necessary First Cause of the universe.
No, the possibility of a multiverse is proven by reason, and is enough to show that the various other explanations for something potentially explained by the multiverse are not proven. I’m not sure that the alleged Necessary First Cause falls into that latter category, but that is not obviously relevant to the debate.
DrTaffy;13614827:
You in fact are
using the double standard that you accuse multiverse proponents of using - you want to use the assertion that God is a possible explanation of a given problem as ‘proof’ he exists, yet are objecting to multiverse proponents allegedly making the same argument as ‘proof’ for the multiverse. Not that I have seen any serious physicist claim such a proof of the multiverse.

I don’t recall saying that. Where did I say that? :confused:
:rotfl:
In this very post. See below.
Yes, God is a possible explanation, but the proof is not in that fact. It’s in the issues of First Cause and Intelligent Design, both of which are most often repudiated by atheists who hope to prop up their position with a Multi-verse, which is a hopeless task.
You do get that both the arguments from a First cause and Intelligent Design take the form “God is a possible explanation for X, therefore God”? :ehh:
 
You should ask Dr. Dawkins why he believes that the question “Why is there something rather than nothing” is the trump card of Believers.
Because, as your post shows, believers present it as a ‘trump card’ - just as his comment about it shrivelling up shows that he does not see it as such. Just as your post shows that believers, specifically you, do in fact present the God of the Gaps argument.
And the idea that the multiverse could exist…despite NOT A WHIT of evidence for this…remains an item of faith.
No, the math and the existence of our universe present far more evidence for the possibility of a multiverse than you have presented for the possibility of a sentient supernatural entity existing without a body, space or time. You would at least admit that we haven proven that at least one cosmos exists, whereas you have not even tried to give concrete evidence that at least one sentient bodiless non-spatiotemporal being exists?
I remember one thread here several years ago in which I posited that no atheist could do what Maximilian Kolbe did–that is, offer to die in the place of another, out of love.

Atheists were coming out of the woodwork saying, “How dare you! Of course atheists can do this!”

So I asked for names, of course, of these atheistic equivalents of Maximilian Kolbe. And, of course, 4 different narratives documenting this act of agape, plus (naturally) proof of their atheism.

Do you think that anyone was able to do this?

Nope.

Did that stop atheists from asserting that this phantom equivalent existed?

Nope.

They sure had faith, though, that he existed.

Odd, no?
No more odd than your inability to present evidence of atheists actually making your alleged ‘Science of the Gaps’ argument, or concrete evidence of the existence of sentient minds existing without a body, space or time, or even to explain what you meant by your trump card comment, if not the God of the Gaps argument.

The assertion that no atheist is capable of sacrificing his life for another is of course ridiculous and deeply insulting to atheist members of the armed forces and emergency services, at the very least.
 
I don’t find Bradski’s position weird at all and I don’t think that the default position is necessarily anything to do with ‘feeling comfortable’. It has to do with intellectual honesty, I think. Furthermore I don’t see any wavering in Bradski’s stated position. It’s simply an acknowledgement that each of us may know more tomorrow than we do today.

Consider an analogy: I don’t know if the recent suggestion that there is a ninth planet in our solar system is true or not. I haven’t yet seen any compelling evidence. My default position is therefore to stick with believing that there are eight known planets, although I acknowledge the possibility that there may be more. I will keep this position until I become aware of sufficient evidence for that ninth planet. Do you find this position weird? How is your approach to this question different?
Ditto. Except that I have seen the evidence for a ninth planet, so default to believing that it exists while accepting the possibility that it does not.
 
Yes, a robust demonstrable example has been provided of a mind existing without a physical substrate. I explained it in one of my posts on another thread, with Blue Horizon, and Bradski It involves Christian Faith, and it gave witness to the existence of Jesus Christ (God-man and the Uncaused Cause) to keep this in the Philosophy Forum. I also made mention of “spiritual being” on this thread. It was brought out in space and time, made public with plenty of witnesses. Of course it can be rejected, but it also can be confirmed. It is not completely out of our existence just because you haven’t experienced the phenomenon. This Forum has some restrictions so my testimony is not complete, but sufficient. By the use of apriori reason, effect to cause, and scientific law, objective reality, it can be proven that God exists. I also know that Faith identifies who God is. True Faith is not outside of our human experience, and space and time. Science believe in theories to ascertain facts, truth. We believe in Divine Revelation to acquire the Source of Truth, and it also confirms our reasoning.
I made a glaring mistake in the above post, I meant “aposteriori reason” not “apriori reason” Old age is settling in, sorry.
 
That is what the critics of intelligent design arguments contend, but that is not what the proponents of the design arguments actually do, at least not those with serious science or philosophical backgrounds.

Meyer, for one, has argued specificially that what he is doing is very much what Darwin has done – an inference to the best explanation. Given that evolution cannot be replicated or observed first had, Darwin proposed abductive reasoning by arriving at the best explanation for what we see happening in terms of adaptation by natural selection today extrapolated to explain change we weren’t around to see happen in the past.

Meyer uses the same kind of abductive reasoning to explain the existence of the otherwise inexplicable levels of information code in DNA. Ergo, it isn’t an appeal to ignorance. We know how complex sequential information in coding gets here today – by intelligent agency – therefore we have a plausible explanation for how it got there in the past. Not an appeal to a “gaps” argument, it proposes a possible mechanism, intelligence, as the best explanation we currently have to explain the existence of coded information in the past.

If you insist on calling a resort to the best POSSIBLE explanation “a fallacy of the gaps,” then go ahead, but the same goes for the theory of evolution since it relies on existing gaps in the knowledge we have about the past, in order to propose “random” or unknown past events as the “best” explanation for the change we see active around us. That is, punting to “random” and, therefore UNKNOWN eventualities as explanatory rather than locating and cataloguing each and every actual past causal event that a proper explanation would yield.

The theory of evolution is positively ensconced on ignorance of the actual past and the gaps in our positive knowledge about the past for its validity. Funny how only one side gets saddled with the “argument from ignorance” charge, in cases where sufficient sympathetic ignorance can be mustered. It isn’t, apparently, an argument FROM ignorance if the ignorance can be made empathic.
By definition it’s an appeal to ignorance since it asserts that something is otherwise inexplicable. We could “explain” anything by saying a magical invisible agent did it, that’s not reasoning, that’s an abrogation of reasoning, it’s ignorance beyond ignorance, it’s an exultation of ignorance, it’s worshiping ignorance. And of course it can’t avoid a charge of god-of-the-gaps by renaming God as an intelligent agent, that’s just silly.

We’re not allowed to discuss the theory of evolution but two obvious differences are (a) it explains, which is why it’s used in every biology department, and (b) it’s testable, which is why it’s scientific. Nether can be said of Meyer’s pathetic insult to reasoning. I’m amazed you’d buy into it, let alone try to defend it. Surely it must be the worst ever intelligent design argument, it’s not even worthy of being called an argument.

No need to parody intelligent design when it does such a great job making fun of itself.
 
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