Why Couldn't the Universe Exist Without a Cause?

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When I was baptized, as an adult, I publicly submitted to Christ.
And you did this because…why?

Because the New Testament said this is what you do?

And why do you follow what’s in the NT?

Because it’s the inspired Word of God?

And how do you know it’s the inspired Word of God?

Because…

the Catholic Church discerned that the 27 books in the NT are the Word of God.

You wouldn’t know it any other way.
So what do you mean by submitting to the Church: Is your master Christ or the Church?
It’s that good old Catholic Both/And here.
And this is what makes Catholicism so formidable to argue against.

There is no need to be fundamentalist about this: Christ ALONE without His Body, the Church.

You need both.

Without the Catholic Church, inocente, you cannot know ***anything at all ***about Christ being your master.

So each and every time you say that you serve Christ, your master, you are saying this because you are giving your tacit submission to the CC, which told you that Christ is your master.

Each and every time.
 
If anything the atheist who does not believe in the afterlife and does not expcect reward for his valor, yet still sacrifices his life for another is making a far greater gesture of love than the theist who expects both to live on after death and to be rewarded in the afterlife for his sacrifice.
This is one of the inconsistencies of atheism which, I think, argues against it.

In earlier posts on this very thread, atheists were posturing against the existence of anything “supernatural” – that ideas, values, “the good” and anything immaterial, really do not exist, in fact. If that is true, then values are chimeras and atheists are stuck with a kind of eliminative materialism. For you to now argue that you have more “respect” for a “group” or individual who does something heroic, charitable or kind, “just 'cause” would seem to lack any kind of cogency coming from the eliminative materialist position you would seem to have shouldered. What difference does it make within a materialist world view whether this accretion of molecules exists rather than that accretion? It was already argued that values and ideas don’t exist and, therefore, have no ontological status to speak of. Why would a value such as loyalty or courage now become so important to you? Why would it have any significance at all, given atheism?

I mean such a view of the “supernatural” importance of values isn’t necessarily inconsistent with atheism but it doesn’t derive from it either. It wouldn’t be proper to say that under atheism, values take on a kind of pristine character devoid of all baggage because these values themselves are part of the “baggage” that atheism sheds as aspects of the “supernatural.”

Now, again, don’t mischaracterize what I am saying. I am not claiming atheists cannot be heroic, charitable or moral. What I am saying is that it isn’t their atheism that can possibly warrant any of those. All of those are incidental to atheism because there is no justification from atheism per se that would warrant any of them as deriving FROM atheism.
Likewise I have much more respect for a group who do heroic, charitable or simply kind things and then just get on with their lives than I do for a group who do something heroic, charitable or kind and then bang on about it to wring every last ounce of gratitude and reward out of it. 🤷
This does have the flavour of a “cheap shot,” given that the motives of an individual for doing an act have always been considered in Christianity to be one of the “dimensions” to determine the true moral quality of that act. So, for example, someone who does something in order to have their deed “paraded before men,” in Jesus’ words, “…have already had their reward.”

In Christian ethics and theology, the actual reward of virtuous acts is to attain the virtues which are the reason for doing the acts themselves. Virtue is the reward, in itself. In other words, a person does virtuous acts not for the sake of attaining some extrinsic reward in paradise. The reward is to become more virtuous, more courageous, more charitable, more Christ-like or God-like for its own sake. That is the idea of sanctity, which is quite a different matter from becoming sanctimonious, per your description of what the theist does and why.

This is where theism essentially differs from atheism. For the theist, those values of courage, heroism, charity, love, kindness, etc. are inbuilt into the very nature of Being Itself because God Is the ultimate and transcendent source of all including the integral nature of what it means to be a human being. For the atheist, there is no such ground from which to argue values, unless you want to make a case that subatomic particles and matter have “heroism” or “courage” as detectible, quantifiable cosmological forces integral within them. Is that what you want to argue?
Another argument from ignorance from PR. You made the assertion, that atheists are incapable of such acts of love, you back it up. I am not building any argument on the assertion that atheists can feel and be motivated by love.
Again, I don’t think the argument would be that “atheists are incapable of such acts of love,” but, rather, that atheism has nothing within it that would underwrite such acts. There are no reasons in atheism that would convince rational animals (aka human beings) to do such things. If atheists did them, it wouldn’t be on account of their atheism, but based upon some other “squirreling in” of supernatural values or notions – the same supernatural qualities the existence of which were denied by atheists throughout this thread.
Great, so when you finally get around to providing concrete robust evidence that a mind can exist without a body, space or time, you will doubtless provide as much documentation yourself. I mean, you are going to back up your assertion eventually, aren’t you, seeing as it was your standard? 👍
So how about you start with explaining why it would be heroic or laudible for someone, under atheism, to give their life for someone else? Under what reasoned set of propositions could a person argue themselves into a position where they would willingly die or give their life for another person? By what grounds would they make such a decision? Perhaps by sheer quantity? Two or three others would be worth saving, but not one? How can it be decided whether one life is worth giving up for one other if value alone is to be the determiner? I mean strictly using atheistic, eliminative materialist premises, since you insist no minds (nor ideas, values, moral concepts, virtues, etc.,) can exist without bodies and, therefore, values have no enduring ontological standing. Why would something that does not exist be considered the grounds for relinquishing something that does?
 
I am not claiming atheists cannot be heroic, charitable or moral.
Indeed.

The argument I present ALWAYS changes to: so PR believes atheists can’t be heroic.

That’s not what I’ve ever argued.

I profess and proclaim that atheists can be heroes. Atheists can be good.
In fact, there is many an atheist I would have my back rather than some professed Christians.

My argument is this: NO atheist can ever do a supreme act of love, in the manner of Maximilian Kolbe.

And if you want to refute this, then go for it.

I will need names, verification that he’s an atheist (preferably text he’s written affirming his atheism), plus 4 independent accounts of this act of agape.
 
What I am saying is that it isn’t their atheism that can possibly warrant any of those. All of those are incidental to atheism because there is no justification from atheism per se that would warrant any of them as deriving FROM atheism.
Of course this is true. Now how about the reverse side of the coin?

Remember of the repetitions by several posters, who blame atheism for the atrocities committed by a few sociopaths (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot). So the good things committed by atheists have nothing to do with atheism, while the bad things committed by some other atheists are attributed to their atheism.

Also compare this to the atrocities committed by the Inquisition. Those inquisitors were not psychopaths (probably) they tortured the “witches” to help them to cleanse their “souls”. So the tortures were the direct outcome of their belief system. But this is never admitted. They were just a few “bad apples”.

This kind of double standard is why these apologists are considered intellectually dishonest.
 
This is where theism essentially differs from atheism. For the theist, those values of courage, heroism, charity, love, kindness, etc. are inbuilt into the very nature of Being Itself because God Is the ultimate and transcendent source of all including the integral nature of what it means to be a human being. For the atheist, there is no such ground from which to argue values, unless you want to make a case that subatomic particles and matter have “heroism” or “courage” as detectible, quantifiable cosmological forces integral within them. Is that what you want to argue?
Well said. :clapping:

The ground of atheism has to be not only the blind watchmaker called evolution, but the also the blind watchmaker called subatomic particles. Dr. Taffy has to assume that all these subatomic particles deterministically govern heroism and courage; that free will is an illusion; and that ultimately love sufficient for martyrdom is a meaningless delusional collocation of atoms we invent to pat ourselves on the back, as if we were something, as Pascal said, more noble than the unconscious universe itself.

But then that is precisely what Dr. Taffy does. He pats the back of the atheist who sacrifices himself for others as if that atheist was more noble than the unconscious universe from which he sprang. 🤷

Well done, Dr. Taffy! :clapping:
 
Remember of the repetitions by several posters, who blame atheism for the atrocities committed by a few sociopaths (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot). So the good things committed by atheists have nothing to do with atheism, while the bad things committed by some other atheists are attributed to their atheism.

Also compare this to the atrocities committed by the Inquisition. Those inquisitors were not psychopaths (probably) they tortured the “witches” to help them to cleanse their “souls”. So the tortures were the direct outcome of their belief system. But this is never admitted. They were just a few “bad apples”.

This kind of double standard is why these apologists are considered intellectually dishonest.
Atheism is not the cause of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. It is the thing that does not stand in the way of those three, just as Hitler’s dissociation of himself from all religions allowed him to be in a position where nothing, not even God almighty, could stand in his way.

The Inquisition, while certainly an instance of cruelty, was nothing on the order of the atheist regimes of the 20th Century. You will find vastly inflated figures of victims calculated by enemies of the Church. The Church did not secretly round up millions of enemies all at once and consign them to torture and the flame, and not even without a trial. That would never have been tolerated by the Church, and for you to say that the Church behaved no differently than Stalin, Hitler, or Mao is to show that you need to read some more history, and not just the atheist or Protestant historians who no doubt are very glad to accommodate your demand for “honest” apologetics.

But anyway, what has any of this to do with the topic of this thread?
 
“We”? The OP explicitly says that “we are used to a Universe where everything is caused”. Obviously, that Universe is our Universe. Do you include yourself within the “we” of the OP, or you belong to another “we”?
Absolutely. I’m also used to a universe where everything behaves as a particle or a wave, not some strange quantum superposition of the two. But that doesn’t mean I can go around denying such things exist.
 
Or you could give a link, like this.
Sorry, I am not adept with the computer, I have no formal training in it’s use, and have to train myself. If I stop to study all the moves I can make on a computer I wouldn’t be able to debate on the forum, there is just not enough time for me.
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DrTaffy:
However those posts don’t even give anecdotal evidence of a sentient mind existing without a body, space or time, just stories of you being lifted by two men and the like. 🤷
Since you use the words “sentient mind” existing without a body, I wondered why you made that choice of words, so I looked it up in the dictionary and this is what I found: sentient-capable of feeling or perception; consciousness. Now it’s not the mind that feels, but the senses, the mind interprets what the senses feel. You could be more specific in stating "the rational mind’ instead of the sentient mind. So it was natural for me to concentrate not on a sentient creature (an animal) but a rational creature who also has senses. If it’s a mind, it can exist without a body. The mind is a spiritual faculty of man responsible for his intelligence, and that too is spiritual. The mind is not sensed, the brain is, there is a major difference which empirical science has yet to discover, and it won’t be by physical means but by intelligence which deals with the abstract, cause and effect. Yes I and many others have e encountered an intelligence without a body. Your refusal to accept my testimony will not change anything, and you will remain the poorer for it by your own choice. I could not go into more detail as it involves many people, this forum and those individuals who were the most affected. I try to respect the forum rules, and the privacy of individuals. I have a list of names of those who were witnesses.
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DrTaffy:
Even if we accepted that as ‘proof’ of levitation, that does not prove the existyence of bodiless mind outside of time and space.
There more to it than levitation, there is the exercise of Faith in Jesus Christ and His promises. There was the clear presence of a voice, all heard, there was also evidence of deceit, the purpose of the manifestation, and there was no body, but a spiritual presence which was revealed, not by physical sight, but by cause and effect. This took place in time and space, not that the spiritual presence occupied space, but inject itself into our mode of existence. There is a reality that exists concurrently with ours, and it is spiritual, and is not bound by our physical laws. If you could make a wide intellectual sweep of the knowledge that exists in the world, you will find this true. But it is natural to judge from our limited point of view.
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DrTaffy:
No idea what you are saying here, or in the rest of the post. For example, the two sentences I quote seem to contradict eachother - the first seems to agree with PR that the reality of a thing must be proven before one may speculate about it, the second seems to disagree.

To be clear, do you agree with PR that one may not speculate about something unless one has proof that it exists or not? Do you at least agree that the same standard should apply to theist and atheist hypotheses?
If indeed PR stated that one may not speculate about something unless one has proof that it exists or not. One may speculate about anything whether it exists or not ( refer to my posts with Nixbit on this thread) But if one is sincere in finding the truth, the speculation should have a reasonable certainty that it can be backed up with some connection to objective reality, even in a hypothesis, otherwise is is based on pure fiction, the speculation then becomes entirely subjective. In that respect science become pure science fiction. I state “pure” because even science fiction is taken from what is known in the real (objective ) world, and has proven to even being " prophetical" such as in the stories of Jules Verns “A Voyage to the Moon” written in aprox. l859, check my post to Nixbit. I didn’t read all the posts close enough that you and PR made because I was busy answering other posters, perhaps I missed something.
 
Absolutely. I’m also used to a universe where everything behaves as a particle or a wave, not some strange quantum superposition of the two. But that doesn’t mean I can go around denying such things exist.
The only waves I have seen are those that are formed on the surface of a liquid. I have never seen sound nor electromagnetic waves (have you?); still, I comprehend that through our intellectual activity we can understand certain phenomena using the notion of “wave”. Reason is important to do that, not only our senses. Even Hume was intelligent enough to acknowledge the importance of reason. You don’t want to go around denying “some strange quantum superposition”, and that is smart of you. Other individuals require I do not know what empirical evidence for the principle of causality (how absurd!) or a logical proof based on I don’t know what axioms. But you are fortunate that you are clever enough to understand what is intelligent to request and what is not. Congratulations!
 
The only waves I have seen are those that are formed on the surface of a liquid. I have never seen sound nor electromagnetic waves (have you?); still, I comprehend that through our intellectual activity we can understand certain phenomena using the notion of “wave”.
Yep.

And it’s interesting the double standard that is being espoused by atheists.

“We can reason our way into knowing the existence of a wave-particle duality, even if we’ve never actually seen it”.

AND

“We reject the existence of God because I haven’t actually seen him.”
 
Also compare this to the atrocities committed by the Inquisition. Those inquisitors were not psychopaths (probably) they tortured the “witches” to help them to cleanse their “souls”. So the tortures were the direct outcome of their belief system. But this is never admitted. They were just a few “bad apples”.

This kind of double standard is why these apologists are considered intellectually dishonest.
Actually, the double standard most obvious in the above post regards the fact that you purport to be interested in facts and evidence when you lob the typical and false myths regarding the Inquisition that only the uninformed interested in promoting “witch hunts” regarding the actions of believers in the past would dare to bring up.

Witches were rarely, if ever, tried by the Inquisition and where they were tried it wasn’t about withcraft, which had been deemed a non-issue by the Church as early as Augustine, but about heretical beliefs.

From Wikipedia…
Christianization and Early Middle Ages
The Councils of Elvira (306), Ancyra (314), and Trullo (692) imposed certain ecclesiastical penances for devil-worship. This mild approach represented the view of the Church for many centuries. The general desire of the Catholic Church’s clergy to check fanaticism about witchcraft and necromancy is shown in the decrees of the Council of Paderborn, which, in 785, explicitly outlawed condemning people as witches and condemned to death anyone who burnt a witch. The Lombard code of 643 states:
"Let nobody presume to kill a foreign serving maid or female servant as a witch, for it is not possible, nor ought to be believed by Christian minds."
This conforms to the teachings of the Canon Episcopi of circa 900 AD (alleged to date from 314 AD), which, following the thoughts of Augustine of Hippo, stated that witchcraft did not exist and that to teach that it was a reality was, itself, false and heterodox teaching. The Council of Frankfurt in 794, called by Charlemagne, was also very explicit in condemning “the persecution of alleged witches and wizards”, calling the belief in witchcraft “superstitious”, and ordering the death penalty for those who presumed to burn witches. Other examples include an Irish synod in 800, and a sermon by Agobard of Lyons (810).
King Kálmán (Coloman) of Hungary, in Decree 57 of his First Legislative Book (published in 1100 AD), banned witch hunting because he said, “witches do not exist”. The “Decretum” of Burchard, Bishop of Worms (about 1020), and especially its 19th book, often known separately as the “Corrector”, is another work of great importance. Burchard was writing against the superstitious belief in magical potions, for instance, that may produce impotence or abortion. These were also condemned by several Church Fathers. But he altogether rejected the possibility of many of the alleged powers with which witches were popularly credited. Such, for example, were nocturnal riding through the air, the changing of a person’s disposition from love to hate, the control of thunder, rain, and sunshine, the transformation of a man into an animal, the intercourse of incubi and succubi with human beings and other such superstitions. Not only the attempt to practice such things, but the very belief in their possibility, is treated by Burchard as false and superstitious.
**Pope Gregory VII, in 1080, wrote to King Harald III of Denmark forbidding witches to be put to death upon presumption of their having caused storms or failure of crops or pestilence. **Neither were these the only examples of an effort to prevent unjust suspicion to which such poor creatures might be exposed. On many different occasions, ecclesiastics who spoke with authority did their best to disabuse the people of their superstitious belief in witchcraft. … A comparable situation in Russia is suggested in a sermon by Serapion of Vladimir (written in 1274/5), where the popular superstition of witches causing crop failures is denounced.
Early secular laws against witchcraft include those promulgated by King Athelstan (924–939):
“And we have ordained respecting witch-crafts, and lybacs, and morthdaeds “murder, mortal sin”]: if any one should be thereby killed, and he could not deny it, that he be liable in his life. But if he will deny it, and at threefold ordeal shall be guilty; that he be 120 days in prison: and after that let kindred take him out, and give to the king 120 shillings, and pay the wer to his kindred, and enter into borh for him, that he evermore desist from the like.”
**In some prosecutions for witchcraft, torture (permitted by the Roman civil law) apparently took place. However, Pope Nicholas I (866), prohibited the use of torture altogether, and a similar decree may be found in the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals.
**
Later Middle Ages
**The manuals of the Roman Catholic Inquisition remained highly skeptical of witch accusations, although there was sometimes an overlap between accusations of heresy and of witchcraft, particularly when, in the 13th century, the newly formed Inquisition was commissioned to deal with the Cathars of Southern France, whose teachings were charged with containing an admixture of witchcraft and magic. Although it has been proposed that the witch-hunt developed in Europe from the early 14th century, after the Cathars and the Templar Knights were suppressed, this hypothesis has been rejected independently by two historians **(Cohn 1975; Kieckhefer 1976).
In 1258, Pope Alexander IV declared a canon that alleged witchcraft was not to be investigated by the Church. Although Pope John XXII had later authorized the Inquisition to prosecute sorcerers in 1320, inquisitorial courts rarely dealt with witchcraft save incidentally when investigating heterodoxy.
 
“We reject the existence of God because I haven’t actually seen him.”
I deleted the first thing I wrote which was a request for you to tell us who actually said that. As it is a quote after all. But that wouldn’t have gotten us anywhere because no-one has actually said that.

I don’t even believe that you believe it’s simply paraphrasing what atheists say. Or even might say. Or have indicated that they might say it. Let’s face it, it’s the most idiotic thing anyone is likely to say, whatever the subject matter.

I don’t think you know any atheist that is posting or has posted on this forum that is that dumb. And I don’t think you believe it’s representative of the position that any of us hold.

All the Christians here that have ever had a conversation with any atheist have been told over and over and over again that the evidence that has been and is being presented for the existence of God is simply not sufficient for us to declare a belief in Him. Period.

I think some respect is due for the honestly held beliefs (or lack of them) of anyone who holds such a position, and who has probably spent quite some considerable time in reaching that position after a great deal of internal debate.
 
I deleted the first thing I wrote which was a request for you to tell us who actually said that. As it is a quote after all. But that wouldn’t have gotten us anywhere because no-one has actually said that.

I don’t even believe that you believe it’s simply paraphrasing what atheists say.
Well, yeah. That’s exactly what it was. It was a metaphor for the more complicated, “I don’t believe in God because there are no scientific, objective, empirical, peer-reviewed, laboratory-demonstrated studies that prove his existence”.

But, again, there’s nothing like that for the multiverse…so…

Go figure.
 
Atheism is not the cause of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. It is the thing that does not stand in the way of those three, just as Hitler’s dissociation of himself from all religions allowed him to be in a position where nothing, not even God almighty, could stand in his way.
That is the point. Neither atheism nor theism can (or should) be found “guilty” for the behavior of its followers. Strangely, the examples of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are constantly being paraded as the “immorality” of atheism. YOU of all, should know this.
The Inquisition, while certainly an instance of cruelty, was nothing on the order of the atheist regimes of the 20th Century.
Even one instance would be one too many. And again your wording blames the “atheist regimes” for the acts of a few psychopaths, and conveniently forget the “Malleus Maleficarum”.
But anyway, what has any of this to do with the topic of this thread?
“Ax” PP, who brought it up. 🙂
 
“Ax” PP, who brought it up. 🙂
So let’s get back on topic.

If you want to argue the Inquisition versus the 20th Century atheist monsters, why not start a new thread. I’ll join you there.
 
The only waves I have seen are those that are formed on the surface of a liquid. I have never seen sound nor electromagnetic waves (have you?); still, I comprehend that through our intellectual activity we can understand certain phenomena using the notion of “wave”. Reason is important to do that, not only our senses. Even Hume was intelligent enough to acknowledge the importance of reason. You don’t want to go around denying “some strange quantum superposition”, and that is smart of you. Other individuals require I do not know what empirical evidence for the principle of causality (how absurd!) or a logical proof based on I don’t know what axioms. But you are fortunate that you are clever enough to understand what is intelligent to request and what is not. Congratulations!
One could argue that electromagnetic waves are the only thing you can see.

Quibbles about how vision works aside, I agree that reason is an important component of how we come to know things. But the insight that people who do science bring to philosophers is that just because reason was involved, doesn’t mean you’ve learned anything useful about the world. We can see this playing out live when we look at scientists attempting to describe things like quantum indeterminacy. When scientists perform an experiment, they would really like to be able to use their laws as the sufficient reasons for the outcome. But in the quantum realm, it’s turned out that this doesn’t work very well. There are certain experiments whose outcomes look to be non-deterministic in the sense that there is no sufficient reason to explain why they get one result instead of another. In other words, their theories are complete (there is no extra data they could take into account) and their theories predict random behavior.

You will notice what was done (and is being done) by scientists in this case. Some of them felt that they could come up with alternative theories that would get rid of the random behavior (and salvage a PSR.) Some of them created thought experiments that indicated we would just have to deal with the randomness since we would not be able to do better. None of them accused the others of creating “absurd” theories when they seriously considered non-deterministic behavior, and all of them actively sought out ways to collect the evidence required to get to the bottom of things.
 
Well, yeah. That’s exactly what it was. It was a metaphor for the more complicated, “I don’t believe in God because there are no scientific, objective, empirical, peer-reviewed, laboratory-demonstrated studies that prove his existence”.
I don’t know any atheist who conducts such tests. Neither do you. The reason I, and every single atheist that has ever existed, does not believe in God is because the evidence that YOU (and other Christians) present is not credible.

And none of that evidence includes scientific, objective, empirical, peer-reviewed, lab-demo’d studies.
 
I don’t know any atheist who conducts such tests. Neither do you. The reason I, and every single atheist that has ever existed, does not believe in God is because the evidence that YOU (and other Christians) present is not credible.

And none of that evidence includes scientific, objective, empirical, peer-reviewed, lab-demo’d studies.
Actually, this needs to be expanded. The test which have been performed are all “secondary”, they attempt to measure the effects of some of God’s alleged attributes, not God’s actual existence in a direct fashion.

This is not problematic, after all we can discover a new planet by observing the motion of the existing ones, and observing the discrepancies between the calculated orbits and the actual ones. The difference is explained by a hypothetical new planet, based upon the observations its parameters are calculated and finally the new planet is found. So the method is valid and sound.

So the epistemological method of observing reality, setting up a new hypothesis and verifying or falsifying the hypothesis is the quintessential scientific method. (It has nothing to do with the idiotic “scientism”.)

Now, this has been performed in the case of “miraculous healings at Lourdes” and the “efficacy of prayers”. Such experiments have been set up to see if there is a significant result which would substantiate that prayers “work”. Not surprisingly, none of the tests presented a positive result.

Now what do the scientists do, when their hypotheses are falsified by the tests? They admit that the hypothesis was wrong. What do the apologists do when their test are proven wrong? They quibble, and say: “God is not a vending machine”, or “you cannot test God” or “it was against God’s will”, or something equally inane. In other words they are intellectually dishonest.
 
One could argue that electromagnetic waves are the only thing you can see.
I will be delighted to see your argument! Please go ahead!
Quibbles about how vision works aside, I agree that reason is an important component of how we come to know things. But the insight that people who do science bring to philosophers is that just because reason was involved, doesn’t mean you’ve learned anything useful about the world. We can see this playing out live when we look at scientists attempting to describe things like quantum indeterminacy. When scientists perform an experiment, they would really like to be able to use their laws as the sufficient reasons for the outcome. But in the quantum realm, it’s turned out that this doesn’t work very well. There are certain experiments whose outcomes look to be non-deterministic in the sense that there is no sufficient reason to explain why they get one result instead of another. In other words, their theories are complete (there is no extra data they could take into account) and their theories predict random behavior.

You will notice what was done (and is being done) by scientists in this case. Some of them felt that they could come up with alternative theories that would get rid of the random behavior (and salvage a PSR.) Some of them created thought experiments that indicated we would just have to deal with the randomness since we would not be able to do better. None of them accused the others of creating “absurd” theories when they seriously considered non-deterministic behavior, and all of them actively sought out ways to collect the evidence required to get to the bottom of things.
I do not know Quantum theories yet. Considering this, let’s suppose I visit a laboratory where quantum physicists are working, and suppose I see one of those “certain experiments”. Do you think I will be able to see the non-deterministic behavior or first I need to learn the theory?

I have some other questions for you JK:


  1. *]What does it mean “to know things” to you?
    *]How does reason come into play in knowing things?
    *]Do people who do science (very well said, JK!) use reason?
    *]Do they have a peculiar reason or is it the same that people who do philosophy have?
 
Yep.

And it’s interesting the double standard that is being espoused by atheists.

“We can reason our way into knowing the existence of a wave-particle duality, even if we’ve never actually seen it”.

AND

“We reject the existence of God because I haven’t actually seen him.”
Let’s wait, PRmerger! Perhaps JK is going to make me see the electromagnetic waves! Perhaps after he comes back the only thing I will see from now on will be electromagnetic waves!
 
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