Why Couldn't the Universe Exist Without a Cause?

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Just because (it couldn’t).

There are better answers … but this should suffice … given the ***question. ***

When in Rome … ;)😃
 
That is, before the Big Bang, there may have been a different set of rules from those we know. We don’t know what such a time and place would be like, because we have no way of observing it! So, how can we know there must be a First Cause?
Can you think of anything–anything at all–that has ever begun to exist without a cause?

I know I can’t.

In fact, I am willing to assert here that NO ONE has ever seen, in the lab, in their experience, in real life, a single thing that has begun to exist without a cause.

So it’s curious that logical, reasonable, mentally astute people would ever embrace the idea that the Universe could begin to exist without a cause.
 
Huh?
I can understand if you say that that it doesn’t answer the question to *your *satisfaction, or that it’s not the answer you would give, but nevertheless it is an answer to that question. Because the universe exists and the existence of the universe is a brute fact. Moreover, it is not an answer I made up but one which is discussed and held by a number of credible academic philosphers - people like Quentin Smith, Wes Morriston, Adolf Gruenbaum, Vic Stenger.
Just to state that something exists as a brute fact does not remove the problem of something needing a cause or an explanation for its existence. Consider this. Theists often get flack from atheists who accuse theists of saying that God is a brute fact. Thus, they come up with all kinds of nonsensical things like the spaghetti monster as an alternative explanation to God. Since one brute fact is as good as another. Why not posit 10000 spaghetti monsters? Why just one? Or all sorts of things we could imagine as brute facts that cause the universe. Since a brute fact has no explanation. We just have to accept it. However, for the classical theist God is not a brute fact. He is the necessarily existing being. Since we derive a necessarily existing being not from a brute fact but from reasoning about existence. God in this sense is only a slice of the being from the gods of religion, but it is enough to disprove atheism.
I don’t think you have shown any such thing and if my answers have misled you to think that I have conceded that, then I am sorry, (although heaven knows how you could have concluded that from what I have written). If that’s your position, yes, that’s the subject of the thread.I think, on the contrary, to say that the everything in the universe has a cause and therefore the universe itself has a cause is the formal fallacy of composition.
Actually, to conclude that universe requires a cause is not the fallacy of composition. It is actually a sound induction. The fallacy of composition is to conclude that because part of a thing has a property then the whole thing itself must have that property. Now, sometimes the whole thing does have the same property as its parts. For example a white picket fence as a whole is also white, not just each individual board. However, other times it does not. For instance, if part of an elephant is light it does not mean the whole elephant must also be light.

Now, if I was arguing solely that because every part of the universe has a cause then the whole universe has a cause that would be fallacious. However, the reasons that I can give for the universe requiring a cause are:
  1. The universe is not a necessarily existing being. The universe could not exist or it could exist differently implies it does not exist necessarily.
  2. Something can not come from nothing. Or, a thing can not bring itself into existence from nothing.
  3. If things can come from nothing why don’t we see this happening all the time? Why not Einstein or rabbits coming from nothing? Why would nothing favor only universes since nothing by definition has no properties? Nobody seriously expects things like a horse to just pop into existence from nothing. So why would we expect universes to do so?
  4. If the universe has a beginning as science suggests this only reinforces 1. And, by 2 implies the universe has a cause.
  5. I can also add that the universe has a beginning for philosophical reasons other than science like the impossibility of having a past infinite sequence of events. Which I have not yet mentioned.
  6. Science and our experience time and time again confirms number 2. Therefore it is an induction and not the fallacy of composition. Induction draws a conclusion about a class of things based on a sample of them. Inductive reasoning is a basis for all of science and therefore should not be confused with the composition fallacy.
 
I am sure you are very secure in your beliefs, but if so, then you have no need to appeal to Einstein as an authority. And to answer your question directly, I think that Einstein’s opinion, on these matters, before any inspection of our reasons, counts exactly the same as mine - why should they count more or less on either side? And why do you assume that our opinions would conflict?
There you go again, making up stuff.

Did I appeal to Einstein as an authority or did I merely ask you to explain why you think he was wrong about the great intellect in the sky which he seemed very much to believe in.

You don’t have to go ballistic with quotes about Einstein’s views on Christianity. I am very familiar with them and it shows a bit of presumption on your part to have to instruct me along those lines.

Calm down yourself please and answer the question directly without going off in ten directions.

Why do you think Einstein is wrong about the way he thought we should think about God?

“I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.” Albert Einstein

**And are you an atheist? It would so much help to know that you don’t feel the need for the shield of anonymity in that regard. ** 🤷
 
Just to state that something exists as a brute fact does not remove the problem of something needing a cause or an explanation for its existence. Consider this. Theists often get flack from atheists who accuse theists of saying that God is a brute fact. Thus, they come up with all kinds of nonsensical things like the spaghetti monster as an alternative explanation to God. Since one brute fact is as good as another. Why not posit 10000 spaghetti monsters? Why just one? Or all sorts of things we could imagine as brute facts that cause the universe. Since a brute fact has no explanation. We just have to accept it. However, for the classical theist God is not a brute fact. He is the necessarily existing being. Since we derive a necessarily existing being not from a brute fact but from reasoning about existence. God in this sense is only a slice of the being from the gods of religion, but it is enough to disprove atheism.

Actually, to conclude that universe requires a cause is not the fallacy of composition. It is actually a sound induction. The fallacy of composition is to conclude that because part of a thing has a property then the whole thing itself must have that property. Now, sometimes the whole thing does have the same property as its parts. For example a white picket fence as a whole is also white, not just each individual board. However, other times it does not. For instance, if part of an elephant is light it does not mean the whole elephant must also be light.

Now, if I was arguing solely that because every part of the universe has a cause then the whole universe has a cause that would be fallacious. However, the reasons that I can give for the universe requiring a cause are:
  1. The universe is not a necessarily existing being. The universe could not exist or it could exist differently implies it does not exist necessarily.
  2. Something can not come from nothing. Or, a thing can not bring itself into existence from nothing.
  3. If things can come from nothing why don’t we see this happening all the time? Why not Einstein or rabbits coming from nothing? Why would nothing favor only universes since nothing by definition has no properties? Nobody seriously expects things like a horse to just pop into existence from nothing. So why would we expect universes to do so?
  4. If the universe has a beginning as science suggests this only reinforces 1. And, by 2 implies the universe has a cause.
  5. I can also add that the universe has a beginning for philosophical reasons other than science like the impossibility of having a past infinite sequence of events. Which I have not yet mentioned.
  6. Science and our experience time and time again confirms number 2. Therefore it is an induction and not the fallacy of composition. Induction draws a conclusion about a class of things based on a sample of them. Inductive reasoning is a basis for all of science and therefore should not be confused with the composition fallacy.
Quantum physics asserts that particles do some from nothing, apparently. We Christians counter that the particles are either going into invisibility, or God is creating and de-creating at will. Scientist want to rule out all non-local factors, but they can’t rule out God
 
Also, I should add this humorous note from William Lane Craig. If something could come from nothing then that would be worse than magic. Because at least with magic you have the magician.
 
Quantum physics asserts that particles do some from nothing, apparently. We Christians counter that the particles are either going into invisibility, or God is creating and de-creating at will. Scientist want to rule out all non-local factors, but they can’t rule out God
Actually, there is a lot of misinformation about this and the word ‘nothing’ is used rather loosely here. Nothing is not a low energy vacuum state. Nothing is non being or the absence of anything. If you have a vacuum or a low energy state with the laws of physics that is not nothing. That is still something.
 
:hmmm: In F=ma, we say the force F is the cause of the acceleration a experienced by the mass m. Otherwise, if we’re not allowed to speak of causality even there, when can we?
No, this equation is the definition of “force”, and we are allowed to speak of causality whenever we see a change. So, when we see a body falling to the earth with accelerated movement we look for the cause, and if then we observe that the acceleration of the body decreases until a terminal speed is reached, we look for another cause. In the first case we have come to the conclusion that there is an interaction between the body and the earth. In the second case we say there is an interaction between the body and air. Depending on how we describe the interaction we will see the earth and the air as the causes, or the other way around.
Sure, cause and effect is something we observe, not something we can know a priori. We seem to be in full agreement that it is not an axiom nor can it be deduced from axioms (i.e. propositions “regarded as self-evidently true without proof”). So I still say we have no rigorous basis for claiming that the singularity has a cause, only intuition that is seems like it oughta.
Well, that depends on what you mean by “to observe”. I prefer the term “to apprehend”. All rational rigor is founded on rational principles, and in the case of our theories about the physical world one of those principles is precisely the principle of causality. However, as physical science is limited in its scope to the realm of interactions, we cannot go beyond the physical realm while remaining scientific. However, we are still rational if we go beyond the description of physical interactions.
Yes, I meant logical induction. And sure, creativity is needed. When Galileo dared to question Aristotle’s doctrine that heavier objects fall faster, he devised an ingenious thought experiment: connect a light object to a heavy object by a length of string, and if Aristotle is correct then the light object will slow the fall of the heavy. But hang on here, the connected objects together are heavier than either was separate, so according to Aristotle then should fall faster not slower. Nicely creative argument.
Yes, Galileo’s work is a nice and interesting example of how scientific minds sometimes proceed. It deserves to be studied with care, in order to have a better understanding of human thought processes.
I disagree that causality is not represented in the math. The reason why Newton’s theory of gravity was found to be limited is that the math didn’t always give the correct predictions, as if causality was violated. In the example above, if we find a case where F is not equal ma we immediately know something’s up. Either we got the measurements wrong or we need to twiddle something.

Indeed, sometimes we have to introduce a physical constant to make the math come out right at all, so as to make predictions of the effects tally with observation. And then some folk reify the constant and decide that every particle and cubic mm of space in the universe must somehow know its value, such that the value could be fine-tuned everywhere and the world could be different, and glory be, it’s a miracle, math proves God.
If there was something that Newton’s theory did not represent adequately it was his theory which needed some adjustment or replacement, not the principle of causality. A scientist wouldn’t say: “well, let’s keep Newton’s theory; anyway perhaps the principle of causality has no ontological value, and Newton’s theory has been useful sometimes. So, let’s take advantage of it as long as we are lucky”.

It seems to be true that there exists a reification tendency, as when people tend to think that “forces” are objects which cause changes in the world.
 
Hume argued that cause cannot be known apart from someone being involved in the act. If I pick up a chair, I can feel myself being the cause, physically. Also, with free will there must always be causality in it’s results. Hume felt that the world was like a series of picture frames, one after another, and that cause was something felt only be humans or at least ways the unknowable noumenon between frames. However, where did the causes which we feel come from? Hume’s argument just takes the series of causes and places them in humans instead of in humans and the world. The result is the same: there must be something outside the world that started the motions in the first place
 
Quantum physics asserts that particles do some from nothing, apparently.
Where does it assert this?

Can you cite the source, please.

And we need to make sure we’re not defining “nothing” as actually “something, like a low level quantum energy field”.
 
Scientist speak of it as nothing, but sometimes they will say that nothing has properties, as Lawrence Kraus has said,
 
On Hume, he took away his natural senses of the world and saw everything as Zeno’s arrow, which runs right into Zano’s infinite half paradox since it destroys the continuous simultaneous nature of motion. Since motion, even if just an illusion, is a real experience, the only conclusion I see is that Zeno’s arrow makes no sense. As it should
 
There is an interview by him on youtube in which he speaks of an science award being given to a friend of his because he showed that nothing has properties in itself
 
There is an interview by him on youtube in which he speaks of an science award being given to a friend of his because he showed that nothing has properties in itself
Surely you see how ridiculous that is. “Nothing with properties” is just another way of saying “something”.
 
Calls to mind a joke I often enjoy:

An atheist tells God, “Lookee here! Science has made you totally unnecessary, God! We’ve figured out the secrets of creation! We know how to create the universe from just a speck of dust. We don’t need you to be the explanation for it anymore!”

God responds, “Ok. Show me.”

Atheist gets a speck of dust and proceeds to show him the science.

God interrupts and says, “Wait a minute there, son. Get your own dust.”

:D:D:D:D:D
 
“The Ontological Disproof of the Vacuum”, Philosophy, 59: 382–384.,C. Williams, 1984

I say this article on Stanford’s bibliography.Does anyone know where this can be found?
 
No. God does not exist by some metaphysical rule. You misunderstand what I am saying. Metaphysics has to do with existence. I am merely stating that there must be a necessarily existing being
You just did it again, you just told God he must necessarily exist. (Unless by being you don’t mean God of course.)
In order to answer the question why does anything exist at all. If not anything existed then we wouldn’t exist. Yet, contingent creatures such as ourselves do not necessarily exist. We are contingent on something else bringing us into existence.
I think you just made it worse. You say God must necessarily exist. Therefore every aspect of God must necessarily exist exactly as it is, and God is necessarily exactly whatever your logic says he must be. We wouldn’t need revelation, any competent logician could work out exactly what God must be.
And it is possible that we could not have been brought into existence. Everything in the universe that we can see is like this.
But if I continue following your logic, you say God must necessarily exist, therefore every aspect of God must necessarily exist exactly as it is, and therefore God has no choice but to create everything as it is, and no choice but to continue creating everything exactly as it is. Is God a slave to logic? Can you prove his love by logic? Does logic dictate that Christ must die on the cross?

Or does God transcend logic? (“Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?” - 1 Cor 1)
*A nature is a term that describes the inherent character about a person or thing. In science they talk about the nature of things.
Your nature wouldn’t exist until you existed. Since all your nature is, is a description of your essence. And, your essence does not exist until you do.*
Nope. Natures, essences and so on are part of Aristotle’s hylomorphism, which isn’t taught or used in modern science.
Oh, and I’m sure the pope already knows all this. And, there are far better people than I to explain it to him.😃
I’m fairly certain the Pope’s not writing your posts. 😉
 
No, this equation is the definition of “force”, and we are allowed to speak of causality whenever we see a change. So, when we see a body falling to the earth with accelerated movement we look for the cause, and if then we observe that the acceleration of the body decreases until a terminal speed is reached, we look for another cause. In the first case we have come to the conclusion that there is an interaction between the body and the earth. In the second case we say there is an interaction between the body and air. Depending on how we describe the interaction we will see the earth and the air as the causes, or the other way around.
Not sure why you’re being so coy about causality. In physics at least, all the important stuff is in the math, so if cause and effect were not to be found in the math then they would be inessential footnotes.
*Well, that depends on what you mean by “to observe”. I prefer the term “to apprehend”. All rational rigor is founded on rational principles, and in the case of our theories about the physical world one of those principles is precisely the principle of causality. However, as physical science is limited in its scope to the realm of interactions, we cannot go beyond the physical realm while remaining scientific. However, we are still rational if we go beyond the description of physical interactions. *
Suppose you firmly believe there’s a large elephant looking over your shoulder right now, along with a tub of butter, Genghis Khan wearing two square triangles, and a being from the seventy-fifth dimension. None of them are interacting with you in any way, but you say you’re still rational. Please explicate.
*If there was something that Newton’s theory did not represent adequately it was his theory which needed some adjustment or replacement, not the principle of causality. A scientist wouldn’t say: “well, let’s keep Newton’s theory; anyway perhaps the principle of causality has no ontological value, and Newton’s theory has been useful sometimes. So, let’s take advantage of it as long as we are lucky”.
It seems to be true that there exists a reification tendency, as when people tend to think that “forces” are objects which cause changes in the world.*
I’d have thought scientists try as hard as possible to retain existing theories. Stage magicians claim to possess all kinds of powers, and only by being skeptical can we discover the subterfuge. And surely lots of people still use Newton’s theory of gravity even though they know it doesn’t work in cases which don’t interest them. They know gravity is a curve in spacetime but still think of it as a force, and do so without any reification, because it still has explanatory power. This was after all a battle Newton had to fight - others said he must explain what gravity is, and he said no, “hypotheses non fingo = I contrive no hypotheses”, and that principle, that we must not invent occult qualities not justified by observation, is a founding principle of modern science.
 
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