Why did Christ have to die for us?

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I’m still not sure I understand, entirely, the passages of Scripture where God said He desires mercy and not sacrifice–though there were some good explanations on the Thread. I welcome any thoughts you (or anyone) may have on that…,
Anna
God doesn’t need sacrifices, ever, really… and Christ’s sacrifice doesn’t contradict that. Sacrifice in the Jewish context is not really about propitiation, which is one reason Jews do not understand ideas like penal substitution (but then outside of Calvinism, it is not accepted anyways).

Some thoughts by Pope Benedict I that I think sum it up better than any “juridical” ideas of the atonement:

“IIn fact, it is with his death and resurrection that Jesus defeated sin and death, reestablishing the lordship of God. But the battle is not over, evil exists and resists in every generation, even in our own. What are the horrors of war, violence visited on the innocent, the misery and injustice that persecutes the weak, if not the opposition of evil to the Kingdom of God? And how does one respond to such evil if not with the unarmed love that defeats hatred, life that does not fear death? This is the mysterious power that Jesus used at the cost of not being understood and of being abandoned by many of his followers… Dear brothers and sisters, to complete the work of salvation, the Redeemer continues to draw to himself and his mission men and women who are ready to take up the cross and follow him.”
 
God is a very personnal Being and thus He is personnaly offended by those who sin against Him Christ loved the Father so much that he volunteered to do whatever was necessary to assuage the insult against Him. To appease his anger God desired the greatest expression of love that a man could give!
I disagree, at least that imagery can be taken too far. God’s nature doesn’t change, so Christ’s death doesn’t actually change God or propitiate God’s wrath. Also, it underplays the human participation in evil, the fact that human beings, not God, killed Christ. But, if it works for you, OK. Just be aware many people do not see anger or wrath in the atonement at all, unless it’s comming from the human side of the “equation”. I see it as more an extension of the Incarnation, a divine response to the human condition.

Ransom was the earliest popular theme of the atonement, and even appears in the Bible (and on Jesus own lips). Jesus never describes his mission as propitiating God’s wrath, for that matter. Rather than seeing it as a matter of individual guilt, most early Christians saw the atonement as having cosmic significance with a strong theme of liberation. Early Christians preached a very simple message, not delving too deeply into the “details”:
  1. Evil people killed Jesus of Nazareth, the expected Messiah
  2. God raised him from the dead
  3. Jesus is Lord. Repent and follow him
 
…I get great comfort in knowing that Christ had doubts…
I don’t agree that Christ had “doubt.” But perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by doubt.

Doubt, as I understand it, is a state of uncertainty in one’s mind, wavering between contradictory views and unable to assent to any of them. If what is meant by “doubt” is that Christ was uncertain about the truth, then I don’t see how this could be possible for Christ, a Divine person, Truth Himself. For Christ to doubt the truth would imply that Christ possessed human ignorance of the truth in some way. I don’t believe this is congruent with a proper understanding of the attributes of Christ’s human nature and the prerogatives of Christ in the domain of human knowledge.

I get great comfort in knowing that Christ had no doubts. Otherwise, he would not be God.
 
I don’t agree that Christ had “doubt.” But perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by doubt.

Doubt, as I understand it, is a state of uncertainty in one’s mind, wavering between contradictory views and unable to assent to any of them. If what is meant by “doubt” is that Christ was uncertain about the truth, then I don’t see how this could be possible for Christ, a Divine person, Truth Himself. For Christ to doubt the truth would imply that Christ possessed human ignorance of the truth in some way. I don’t believe this is congruent with a proper understanding of the attributes of Christ’s human nature and the prerogatives of Christ in the domain of human knowledge.

I get great comfort in knowing that Christ had no doubts. Otherwise, he would not be God.
Wrong word I suppose. I should say, I get great comfort knowing that Christ was conflicted with what he was sent to do.

Think that works. 🙂
 
In theology, because it is a science, there is always the risk to go too far. Concerning the “wrath of God” many awful things have been (and are) preached. But it is a constant theme in the Scriptures, so we have to deal with it.
The propitiation part of the Redemption is related to God whereas the expiation part is related to us, in both aspect Christ acts in our behalf by his salvific death.

I think that if we look at this mystery in the light of the covenant and the intimate relationship that God want with us, the propitiation makes a lot of sense…
 
But it is a constant theme in the Scriptures, so we have to deal with it.
The propitiation part of the Redemption is related to God whereas the expiation part is related to us, in both aspect Christ acts in our behalf by his salvific death.
“Wrath” is an anthropomorphism, that’s not from me, that’s from an Orthodox priest (I suppose they wouldn’t say that God is without judgement, but God doesn’t “get angry”) They also reject propitiation. It’s also not how Jews think of atonement at all, either, likewise the Jewish view of God is a mixture of personal and “impersonal”, much like Christianity. Justice and mercy in Judaism have a unity within God, and they are more the result of things that people do, in an energetic or ontological (as oppossed to juridical) rather than completely libertarian fashion, similar to some eastern ideas of karma.

I don’t believe this is congruent with a proper understanding of the attributes of Christ’s human nature and the prerogatives of Christ in the domain of human knowledge.

I get great comfort in knowing that Christ had no doubts. Otherwise, he would not be God.

Some theologians have said that lack of absolute omniscience is congruent with kenosis, in contrast to some Patristic/Medieval ideas that Christ pretend to not know the hour of the Eschaton, for instance. I like this idea better than saying that Christ was potentially “faking”. It’s a fine point. I think there’s always the tendency to dehumanize Christ in theology.
 
…there is always the risk to go too far. Concerning the “wrath of God”…
I agree. Whenever I ponder aspects of the Father’s personality when it comes to things like “wrath”, I always try to find a commonality in our own lives (while understanding that our lives are but much smaller, limited versions/examples of His life).

Concerning wrath, I think…

As a ‘humanity’, the early people of God were truly young kids. And like young children, these early people truly did not understand the difference between abuse (of hate) and reprimand (of love)? If a parent punishes a child for disobedience, that child often calls the parent “mean”, not understanding that the parent’s actions are out of love; that the reason for the action is so far past the understanding of the child’s mind…until the child understands when mature.

There are many instances when the Father actually yells at, causes the death, enslavement and suffering of His people as they disobey…but on a grand scale, were these actions really acts of “wrath”?

  • Any **Death **cause by the Father was only "physical’ dealth. Remember, we believe God already had His plan of Salvation; for His Son to cause the Resurrection, so isn’t physical death merely akin to temporary sleep?
…And the Father says, "Go to Bed!"
  • Enslavement: the Father’s people are restricted from the freedom they desire…for a short time. Remembering that the Father’s time is not like our own, so 40 years (as an example) can be a mere 40 days (a little over 1 month). How many parents have taken away freedoms from their children for a short time when disobedient (I know mine did)?
…And the Father says, "You’re Grounded!"
  • Suffering: Not always physical pain, but often times, psychological pain is required to draw attention to one’s wrong-doing, and to quickly shock them out of that negative action. How many children [used to be] slapped on the hand or popped on the bum to draw attention away from an instance of disobedience?
…And the Father says, "(phwack!)"

…Unfortunately our world, by and large, has fostered generations of spoiled children who do not believe we should be reprimanded for anything…Consequently, many people - who are “on the fence” - are turned off when they first read of “the wrath of God”…or even when they’re told to follow the Laws of God.

…And the children say, "Don’t tell me what to do!" 🙂

I mean…why call Him “Father” is He doesn’t really act like a parent, unless He does and He IS?
 
Hi,
Jesus Christ died for us because he had to pay the price for our sins. If he hadn’t have died for us, he would just be like any other prophet, except he wasn’t…he was God in the flesh. Yes, Jesus died for us, but the most important thing is that he was resurrected.
 
Wrong word I suppose. I should say, I get great comfort knowing that Christ was conflicted with what he was sent to do.

Think that works. 🙂
I speak of his prayer to the Father in the garden. Right before the soldiers came to get him. That time alone, is enough to grant me peace, knowing that he wasn’t exactly thrilled about what was going to happen, but did go through with it anyway, as that is what his Father wanted.
 
Well “wrath” is used abundantly in the Scriptures and we cannot just dismiss it on the ground that it seems anthropocentric. God is a Person and over and over again expresses joy, pain and yes wrath.
Once again the key is to consider that He is a Father involved in relationship with each one of us, and He is not indifferent…

Another parameter that we have to consider, even if it’s difficult to apprehend is the evilness of sin…
 
God doesn’t need sacrifices, ever, really… and Christ’s sacrifice doesn’t contradict that. Sacrifice in the Jewish context is not really about propitiation, which is one reason Jews do not understand ideas like penal substitution (but then outside of Calvinism, it is not accepted anyways).
That would help explain, at least partially, the reason the Jews rejected Jesus, would it not?
Some thoughts by Pope Benedict I that I think sum it up better than any “juridical” ideas of the atonement:

“IIn fact, it is with his death and resurrection that Jesus defeated sin and death, reestablishing the lordship of God. But the battle is not over, evil exists and resists in every generation, even in our own. What are the horrors of war, violence visited on the innocent, the misery and injustice that persecutes the weak, if not the opposition of evil to the Kingdom of God? And how does one respond to such evil if not with the unarmed love that defeats hatred, life that does not fear death? This is the mysterious power that Jesus used at the cost of not being understood and of being abandoned by many of his followers… Dear brothers and sisters, to complete the work of salvation, the Redeemer continues to draw to himself and his mission men and women who are ready to take up the cross and follow him.”
Excellent quote.

Anna

P.S. I’m confused. Are you a Calvinist or a Catholic?
 
God doesn’t need sacrifices, ever, really… and Christ’s sacrifice doesn’t contradict that. Sacrifice in the Jewish context is not really about propitiation, which is one reason Jews do not understand ideas like penal substitution (but then outside of Calvinism, it is not accepted anyways).
God doesn’t need sacrifice but men do! Since Abel sacrifices have been offered to God to thank Him and also to placate Him and to ask His forgiveness.

Thus sacrifices in Judaism were very much about propitiation…

If penal substitution is not accepted, could it be because it is not biblical?:ehh:
 
God doesn’t need sacrifice but men do! Since Abel sacrifices have been offered to God to thank Him and also to placate Him and to ask His forgiveness.

Thus sacrifices in Judaism were very much about propitiation…

If penal substitution is not accepted, could it be because it is not biblical?:ehh:
Good question. Any ideas?

Anna
 
About penal substitution, in a nutshell we can say:
  1. Temporal punishment for sin is physical death, but the ultimate punishment is eternal damnation → Christ did not undergo eternal damnation, that is eternal punishment of hell for sin.
  2. If Christ had paid the full legal and eternal consequence for everyone’s sin, God wold legally owe man salvation, and be require to bring eveyone in heaven. Because God is just, He could not demand double payment for the same sin. This shows that penal substitution is an illogical, hence false doctrine.
  3. When Scipture talks about ransom, it does not refer to the legal payment for sin (eternal damnation) but the personal price Christ underwent to open up the possibility of salvation for the whole world (I Jn 2:2, 1 Tim 2:6)
  4. Christ is called the “offering” Eph 5:2, the “sacrifice” (1 Co 5:7 ) and the “propitiation” Rm 3:25) for sins, not the one who paid the price of eternal damnation for all men’s sins.
  5. Finally Jesus Christ have suffered, not as a substitute for sinful humanity, but as our representative. Thus, Christ’s saving passion didnn’t exempt us from suffering, but rather endowed our suffering with divine power and redemptive value.
 
…Christ’s saving passion didnn’t exempt us from suffering, but rather endowed our suffering with divine power and redemptive value.
I like your explanation…may I try another angle of the same point?

Throughout the bible, the church - that is, the people of God - are also represented by a “woman”. In early writings, the obedient followers are called the “Bride”, while God is assumed the “Husband”. The two were married; bound together in spirit.

…However, there are also other women represented in the Bible, the “harlot” and the “adulterer”. So early on, God’s bride knowingly commits adultery with other gods - this is after God delivered them and revealed Himself to them as their God - so her husband divorces her.

[Jeremiah 3:8] “…And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce…”

Recall that in anchient law, a man is never allowed to divorce his wife unless the wife is unfaithful and commits the sin of adultery…and if there be such a divorce, the husband is not allowed to remarry ever again.

However, There’s an Exception to the Rule…

A husband can remarry a new wife if, and only if, his former wife dies, thus freeing the husband from the bonds of the original union.

Note that ALL are bound to the Law of God…even God, Himself.

To choose to belive in Messiah is to accept that He chose to be our representative, who died in our place so that we *may *be redeemed; so that we *may *become a new bride for the Husband to marry.
 
Some theologians have said that lack of absolute omniscience is congruent with kenosis, in contrast to some Patristic/Medieval ideas that Christ pretend to not know the hour of the Eschaton, for instance. I like this idea better than saying that Christ was potentially “faking”. It’s a fine point. I think there’s always the tendency to dehumanize Christ in theology.
I more often come across the tendency to de-divinize Christ in theology, at least in these Modernist times.

I’m comforted that Catholic theology takes into consideration the hypostatic union of both Divine and human natures. As such, there’s Catholic doctrine which binds Catholic theology with regard to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

The Church teaches that because Christ was man, in his humanity he could not have “infinite” knowledge, since as man, that is, strictly considering his human knowledge, his capacity to know was necessarily finite. It is only in this sense that Christ was not “absolutely omniscient” in his human capacity for knowledge.

But this does not mean that he had human ignorance. You don’t need to be a infinite person to know what man can know. Consequently, he did not have ignorance or uncertainty within his human intellect about the truth (i.e. he did not have doubt). Because of the hypostatic union, his humanity was in union with Truth from the very moment of his conception. He is the way, the Truth and the life.

Many times I read that his “agony” or “difficulty” in the garden of gethsemane, for example, was a manifestation of “doubt.” Such a conclusion is incongruent with Catholic doctrine. As Teneas states here #29 , what Christ was called to endure was certainly not easy. We can learn from the manner in which he faced such difficulties. However, as Ven. John Henry Newman states, a thousand difficulties do not make a single doubt.

Christ’s freedom from ignorance was denied by the Arians, the Nestorians, and a monophysitic sect of the 6th century (Agnoetes). However, Patriarch Euologius of Alexandria taught:
“Christ’s humanity which was taken up in the hypostasis of the inaccessible and substantial wisdom of Christ cannot be ignorant of anything of the past or of the future.”
Pope Gregory the Great approved the teaching (cf. Denzinger 248).

Related to this, the Council of Constantinople II, AD 553, canon 12, asserted:
If anyone defends the impious Theodore of Mopsuestia, who said one was God the Word, and another the Christ…who gradually…was improved by the progress of His works…let him be anathema. (D 224)
Benedict XV, in a decree of his Holy Office, June 5, 1918, taught that "[it can be called certain] that the soul of Christ was ignorant of nothing, but from the beginning knew all things in the Word, past, present, and future" (D 2184), rejecting as false opinion the theory of the limited knowledge of the soul of Christ (D 2185). In St. Pius X’s refutation against the errors of the Modernists, *Lamentabili *(1907), he condemns the proposition that “Christ did not always have the consciousness of His Messianic dignity.” (D 2035).

I don’t believe Christ ever “faked” ignorance, but he was a Teacher who often asked questions that he knew the answer to as a way of allowing his disciples to think through the answer for themselves. He also, at times, answered in a ancient way which expressed in essence: that is something that you are not supposed to know (e.g., the hour of the Eschaton). I don’t find anything “fake” or deceptive about such discourse.

Consequently, while the incarnate Christ did not possess infinite omniscience, from the perspective of Catholic doctrine, Christ was never ignorant of his Messianic mission, nor anything which can be comprehended by human cognition, past, present, or future.
 
About penal substitution, in a nutshell we can say:
  1. Temporal punishment for sin is physical death, but the ultimate punishment is eternal damnation → Christ did not undergo eternal damnation, that is eternal punishment of hell for sin.
  2. If Christ had paid the full legal and eternal consequence for everyone’s sin, God wold legally owe man salvation, and be require to bring eveyone in heaven. Because God is just, He could not demand double payment for the same sin. This shows that penal substitution is an illogical, hence false doctrine.
  3. When Scipture talks about ransom, it does not refer to the legal payment for sin (eternal damnation) but the personal price Christ underwent to open up the possibility of salvation for the whole world (I Jn 2:2, 1 Tim 2:6)
  4. Christ is called the “offering” Eph 5:2, the “sacrifice” (1 Co 5:7 ) and the “propitiation” Rm 3:25) for sins, not the one who paid the price of eternal damnation for all men’s sins.
  5. Finally Jesus Christ have suffered, not as a substitute for sinful humanity, but as our representative. Thus, Christ’s saving passion didnn’t exempt us from suffering, but rather endowed our suffering with divine power and redemptive value.
BenBornAgain,

You are saying ransom “does not refer to the legal payment for sin (eternal damnation); but the personal price Christ underwent to open up the possibility of salvation for the whole world.”

This is an interesting post; and I haven’t really heard anyone speak of the sacrifice of Christ in this way. I have wondered how Christ paid the price for our sins, if our punishment is eternal damnation. At the same time, I don’t really understand how one finds “eternal” punishment in Holy Scripture, other than eternal death or annihilation.

So, you are saying Christ did not actually pay the price for our sins?

Could you provide the basis for your belief, i.e. quotes from Scripture, ECF’s, Popes, etc.?

Thanks,
Anna
 
I more often come across the tendency to de-divinize Christ in theology, at least in these Modernist times.

I’m comforted that Catholic theology takes into consideration the hypostatic union of both Divine and human natures. As such, there’s Catholic doctrine which binds Catholic theology with regard to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

The Church teaches that because Christ was man, in his humanity he could not have “infinite” knowledge, since as man, that is, strictly considering his human knowledge, his capacity to know was necessarily finite. It is only in this sense that Christ was not “absolutely omniscient” in his human capacity for knowledge.

But this does not mean that he had human ignorance. You don’t need to be a infinite person to know what man can know. Consequently, he did not have ignorance or uncertainty within his human intellect about the truth (i.e. he did not have doubt). Because of the hypostatic union, his humanity was in union with Truth from the very moment of his conception. He is the way, the Truth and the life.

Many times I read that his “agony” or “difficulty” in the garden of gethsemane, for example, was a manifestation of “doubt.” Such a conclusion is incongruent with Catholic doctrine. As Teneas states here #29 , what Christ was called to endure was certainly not easy. We can learn from the manner in which he faced such difficulties. However, as Ven. John Henry Newman states, a thousand difficulties do not make a single doubt.

Christ’s freedom from ignorance was denied by the Arians, the Nestorians, and a monophysitic sect of the 6th century (Agnoetes). However, Patriarch Euologius of Alexandria taught:
“Christ’s humanity which was taken up in the hypostasis of the inaccessible and substantial wisdom of Christ cannot be ignorant of anything of the past or of the future.”
Pope Gregory the Great approved the teaching (cf. Denzinger 248).

Related to this, the Council of Constantinople II, AD 553, canon 12, asserted:
If anyone defends the impious Theodore of Mopsuestia, who said one was God the Word, and another the Christ…who gradually…was improved by the progress of His works…let him be anathema. (D 224)
Benedict XV, in a decree of his Holy Office, June 5, 1918, taught that "[it can be called certain] that the soul of Christ was ignorant of nothing, but from the beginning knew all things in the Word, past, present, and future" (D 2184), rejecting as false opinion the theory of the limited knowledge of the soul of Christ (D 2185). In St. Pius X’s refutation against the errors of the Modernists, *Lamentabili *(1907), he condemns the proposition that “Christ did not always have the consciousness of His Messianic dignity.” (D 2035).

I don’t believe Christ ever “faked” ignorance, but he was a Teacher who often asked questions that he knew the answer to as a way of allowing his disciples to think through the answer for themselves. He also, at times, answered in a ancient way which expressed in essence: that is something that you are not supposed to know (e.g., the hour of the Eschaton). I don’t find anything “fake” or deceptive about such discourse.

Consequently, while the incarnate Christ did not possess infinite omniscience, from the perspective of Catholic doctrine, Christ was never ignorant of his Messianic mission, nor anything which can be comprehended by human cognition, past, present, or future.
itsjustdave1988,

I have read this post several times; and I’m still not sure I understand what you are saying.

You said, “The Church teaches that because Christ was man, in his humanity he could not have ‘infinite’ knowledge, since as man, that is, strictly considering his human knowledge, his capacity to know was necessarily finite. It is only in this sense that Christ was not ‘absolutely omniscient’ in his human capacity for knowledge.”

You, also, said, “Benedict XV, in a decree of his Holy Office, June 5, 1918, taught that [it can be called certain] that the soul of Christ was ignorant of nothing, but from the beginning knew all things in the Word, past, present, and future (D 2184), rejecting as false opinion the theory of the limited knowledge of the soul of Christ (D 2185).”

You are saying Christ, in his humanity, could not have infinite knowledge; yet, from the beginning, he knew all things in the Word, past, present, and future.

How could Christ not have infinite knowledge, and still know all things past, present, and future? Would you clarify?

Thanks,
Anna
 
Everything real in the Universe is obtained by some kind of payment.

Sacrifice is a Law of Life.
It’s always uphill. Indulgence is always downhill.

If you want to ‘get’ knowledge of physics, for example, you need to ‘pay’ the effort of finding a teacher and the effort of study along with relinquishing your ignorance in physics…sacrifice

If you want to buy a car you need to pay money…sacrifice

if you want a relationship you need to ‘pay’ time and some level of commitment.
Anything with any worth costs…sacrifice.
To be healthy cost’s careful diet and sane living and an occasional purging fever…sacrifice.
For Humanity to be righteous in God’s eyes ‘cost’ a great deal. It cost the very same God His Human life.
For us to obtain the benefits of this Truth ( to in fact be righteous) we would need to feed off of it…literally eat this Truth. This is Eucharist.

For man to enter into the Divine life cost the Very Divine to die in order to be our Spiritual Food.

It could happen in no other way. God is not a sadist. God plays by His own rules. (Sorry Thomas Aquinas.)
 
About penal substitution, in a nutshell we can say:
  1. Temporal punishment for sin is physical death, but the ultimate punishment is eternal damnation → Christ did not undergo eternal damnation, that is eternal punishment of hell for sin.
  2. If Christ had paid the full legal and eternal consequence for everyone’s sin, God wold legally owe man salvation, and be require to bring eveyone in heaven. Because God is just, He could not demand double payment for the same sin. This shows that penal substitution is an illogical, hence false doctrine.
  3. When Scipture talks about ransom, it does not refer to the legal payment for sin (eternal damnation) but the personal price Christ underwent to open up the possibility of salvation for the whole world (I Jn 2:2, 1 Tim 2:6)
  4. Christ is called the “offering” Eph 5:2, the “sacrifice” (1 Co 5:7 ) and the “propitiation” Rm 3:25) for sins, not the one who paid the price of eternal damnation for all men’s sins.
  5. Finally Jesus Christ have suffered, not as a substitute for sinful humanity, but as our representative. Thus, Christ’s saving passion didnn’t exempt us from suffering, but rather endowed our suffering with divine power and redemptive value.
  1. Christ did enter the underworld of the dead. “He descended into Hell…”
  2. Yes. God IS obliged to give all who enter into Christ by faith, eternal life…if you want to say it that way.
  3. He did indeed ransom all who will ‘eat’ of this truth. If you have no faith in the propitiatory death of Christ you have no food and hence no LIFE. The Father and the Son are ONE.
    4)What is the difference???
  4. Of course it didn’t exempt us from suffering…suffering is part of any life…It DID exempt us from the weight and penalty of our sins which is eternal damnation and separation from God. All suffering does not equal damnation.
 
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