Since God knows everything, he doesn’t have to prove a point. It’s Satan who has to prove a braggart’s point, which is that his influence with Job is greater than God’s. As usual, he is the egomaniac, not God. As usual, the egomaniac suffers defeat.
You are saying that God created the universe, but he did not create the natural processes? Is the universe not synonomous with its own natural processes?
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I said that God started creation. Natural processes are just that, processes that developed within nature. No outside interference needed.You are saying that God created the universe, but he did not create the natural processes? Is the universe not synonomous with its own natural processes?
If I build a computer, would I not also be building it to process software?
And by this you show yourself to be like one of Jobs friends or wife, who wants us to curse God because you find scandal in His ways.
If you’ve read about the Big Bang theory, you know that the way the universe was created made possible all the natural processes that followed. Therefore God is not only the Creator but also the source of all natural laws as well as the universe itself. That is to say, the first instant of creation contained within itself all the elements that were necessary to develop the laws that followed, and especially the dominance of hydrogen as the primary element of the universe.
I’ve read a great deal about the Big Bang and have concluded that God initiated, but with the other points I have some qualms. It is now known that dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent elements in the Universe.
I don’t believe that God created us at all, he has no plan for humanity and doesn’t interfere with us in any way. I have faith in that an in the existence of God, the initiator of creation. What His other qualities are is a matter of speculation.And by this you show yourself to be like one of Jobs friends or wife, who wants us to curse God because you find scandal in His ways.
Job believed God to have ways infinitely above our ways. His foolishness is greater than our wisest conclusions!
You conclude that God created us at one point in time and does not sustain our life.
Faith is an assent. We do not inspect God and judge Him to be worthy or not worthy of our service. We trust, by faith, He is good and has ultimate purpose for us. We choose His purpose over our own, because He is our only hope of eternal life. Yet we are not left without Confirmation for our faith!
Tradition through our History has provided the way to knowing our creator intimately. Job’s friends and wife may have repented because of Jobs example, we do not know. But if not, they are forever lost for cursing their creator because their creator was not serving Job with physical and financial wealth. Job trusted God’s spiritual purpose to be greater than these things, which die and rot with the body.
I hope you return to your faith with love,
Michael
But what about the horrific suffering of children?Suffering is often needed to lift a person spiritually. In the end, God greatly blesses Job, and I suspect that Job was a much better servant of God as a result.
LOVE!
Our job is to ALWAYS try and help the needy! It’s up to God, and only God, to say who is to suffer, and by how much.
Bit by bit you may figure out the God you left behind. I hope you do it in your lifetime.
“WE” will never put it all together. There will never be a consensus of belief one way or the other until the very end of the world.
Aye, there’s the rub…it was the process of truly learning about the Christian God that led me to take another path. I can’t imagine what would cause me to turn 180 degrees, when the evidence is written down. However, I am open to change…that’s why I come here…so anything is possible, even if it is highly unlikely.Bit by bit you may figure out the God you left behind. I hope you do it in your lifetime.
It would be good to know what you “truly learned” about the Christian God as opposed to what you had falsely learned.
I admire the depth of faith I see in some here. It is reminiscent of my father. My mother, though devout in the practices of the faith ran into some of the same issues I have, though substantially later in life.
I sincerely hope I’m not one of the annoying posters
I must agree with you. Some people do begin to see their deep, deep faith as proof of itself. But, as I said, doubt is a necessary element to faith.I admire the depth of faith I see in some here. It is reminiscent of my father. My mother, though devout in the practices of the faith ran into some of the same issues I have, though substantially later in life.
I find it interesting when people question your obvious intelligence- in fact, sometimes, I must admit, I have to
There are certain posters who can be a bit annoying by pronouncing faith as undeniable fact and questioning the intelligence of those who disagree. Virtually everything said by people on this board relating to God, myself included, is faith, not fact. Generally I am very tolerant because that approach indicates to me that the poster is new to the faith and very enthusiastic.
Not a terrible thing, but inappropriate in discussion with others in a philosophy forum.
Agreed…exercise for the mind is good for all of us. Here’s to our next conversation.I must agree with you. Some people do begin to see their deep, deep faith as proof of itself. But, as I said, doubt is a necessary element to faith.
I have enjoyed my conversations with you very much. You are one of the most respectful non-religious (imprecise, but I hope you know what I mean) person to enter into this debate. I find that having my beliefs challenged helps to increase it. You have done me a great service! I look forward to more forum meetings with you!
I sincerely hope I’m not one of the annoying posters
I do try to watch my words, as to not sound ugly.
I don’t think intelligence is very relavent to much in our relationship with God. Of course some individuals are extremely bright and have alot of capacity for complexity of history, analyzing and vocabulary. But the general quality of people is not determined by their intelligence. For example, everyone in prison is not of a lesser I.Q. than those in free society.
Man is driven by something greater than his mind. The mind is a great gift and is used by man to accomplish what he sets himself to do. But a different source exists in which we draw our motive. The faith of the Gospel says this is our hearts. It also seems that the desires of the heart is the will. The person who created us has the ability to create again a new heart by being filled with the will of the creator. This requires a free will, which gives authority to the greater will in order to accomplish something greater.
It seems the more intelligence a person has, the more obstacles they are faced with. Its like driving a muscle car as opposed to a bicycle. The person with the muscle car may get around alot more and faster, but is alot more likely to have an accident, or get lost on the many roads he’s venturing out on. While the person on a bicycle will get there eventually and not likely to take anyone out along the way, or stray so far from his path that he gets lost.
We can only have one Father… from above or from below. We were created in an image that we distorted thru our free will. It is something we all have in common. And our struggle to bear thru the consequences of that dysfunction in our basic nature, is our duty.
So, in the story of Job, would you rather be Job who received difficult trials and yet maintained a faith in his creator, or would you rather be the person who is convinced and convinces others that God only is good if we don’t suffer afflictions?
Peace
Michael
A superb post, Michael!“scientific logic” is also based on faith. Our sole certainty is our awareness that we exist. We cannot deny we exist without contradicting ourselves.
