Why did God allow Job to suffer?

[pristine2]

I recently completed RCIA, was baptised and took communion as a new member of the Catholic Church.

I could not be more comfortable with the decision and my profession of faith.

I confess, though, that the most challenging aspects of Catholic doctrine for me are found in the old testament, and the story of Job is a salient case in point. I still find it difficult to swallow. I raised the issue in my RCIA classes, and was very frank about it. It was difficult to accept a God who wagered Job’s life and happiness with Satan, and who seemed so quick to wreak misery, death and destruction on the enemies of a particular tribe and its heroes.

Had I been instructed to accept the Old Testament narrative literally, I would never have become a Catholic.

Fortunately, with the help of my sponsor, I was able to see interpret the OT the in the light of the Gospel. For me, it’s the new covenant that matters. There are glimmers of the divine in the Old Testament, to be sure, but I don’t think being Catholic means that I must believe, in the literal sense, that a just God would send bears to murder children, turn Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt, or stand by and watch the appalling suffering and injustice visited upon Job.

 

[chefmomster2]

I recently completed RCIA, was baptised and took communion as a new member of the Catholic Church.

CONGRATS!

It was difficult to accept a God who wagered Job’s life and happiness with Satan,

I wouldn’t say He wagered. There was absolutely no doubt of the outcome! God never lost faith in Job.

Had I been instructed to accept the Old Testament narrative literally, I would never have become a Catholic.

I’m glad you had knowledgable teachers in your program. I remember as a child that our teacher told us to view the Bible as a library full of books. Among them are histories, poems, biographies, myths, proverbs, songs and drama. Each adds to the richness of the ultimate full Truth of God through its own particular genre.

There are glimmers of the divine in the Old Testament, to be sure, but I don’t think being Catholic means that I must believe, in the literal sense, that a just God would send bears to murder children, turn Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt, or stand by and watch the appalling suffering and injustice visited upon Job.

You are correct that we certainly don’t believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. It would be impossible anyway! It contradicts itself too often! (Check out the two different versions of Noah’s Ark, for example.)

But, be just a bit cautious about seeing only a “glimmer” of the divine in the OT. There is so much majesty there! Yes, there is hardship and suffering and some very violent chapters of retribution and punishment. But there is also a beautiful image of our God- almighty, strong, eternal, faithful, personal, loving, etc.

The CCC tells us:

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God.** The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).**

God’s divinity is found everywhere in the OT. From the incredible fact of His creation of the world (however it may have come about), to the guidance of His people out of slavery, to the proclamations of His might by the prophets, and great plan for our redemption, it is an absolutely necessary component to our faith.

128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,104 and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God’s works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.

Welcome to the fold!

 

[oldcelt]

“scientific logic” is also based on faith. Our sole certainty is our awareness that we exist. We cannot deny we exist without contradicting ourselves.

Agreed…wholeheartedly

 

[uksimon]

Chaos is necessary to define man. You read of a good man suffering and your heart goes out to him. Events in one mans life shapes many others.

Without war you would not grasp peace. Without loss you would treasure life little. There is beauty in all that would seem wrong in this world, in its contrast and what it creates in man. Christians often dwell on what will follow. A notion of time eternal. In it, that which they admire and strive for is everlasting. Yet without the contrast in life those qualities are undefined.

Many men question gods presence or understanding. Why the world is this way. Yet by understanding the full nature of man, adversity becomes a necessity in developing him. You dwell on Christ and his sacrifice. Nobility of that kind is admired by all, yet the pain of loss is recognised by all. The two are one and the same. An eddy in the waters of life. All things are valued, though man rarely grasps their purpose.

 

[uksimon]

“scientific logic” is also based on faith. Our sole certainty is our awareness that we exist. We cannot deny we exist without contradicting ourselves.

Thats an interesting statement. But for clarity…
What is “we” or “I”?

What when you have awareness of all? When your sense of self does not define a single being, and sees the world as one? You may choose to define a man, but when you define all as one, what you once defined as yourself is both there and not. What if your awareness were just a perception, a perspective, and you experienced many?

The notion of many "we"s and "I"s becomes apparent, or the sum of its parts.

 

[tonyrey]

Agreed…wholeheartedly

To a large extent life is what we make it, meaningful or meaningless. God allowed Job to suffer because misfortunes are opportunities for courage, fortitude and compassion.

 

[pristine2]

CONGRATS!

Welcome to the fold!

Thanks! And you gave me a lot to chew on about the OT. I’ve been reading the CCC, but you’ve distilled the essential points in a way that would have taken me forever.

Yes, it’s a lot more than a glimmer of divinity. A bad and unwarranted choice of words, but it does describe how I’ve reacted to it. It is still very difficult for a neophyte like me to get my head around the OT, which can be pretty shocking. It creates a lot of internal dissonance for me. In mass, the first reading is usually from the OT, and for me it is often the most uncomfortable part of the hour.

My spirit brightens as the readings proceed to the letters and the Gospel, upon which the subsequent homily usually focuses. I find myself very thankful that I am a Christian.

Peace be with you.

 

[tonyrey]

Thats an interesting statement. But for clarity…
What is “we” or “I”?

What when you have awareness of all? When your sense of self does not define a single being, and sees the world as one? You may choose to define a man, but when you define all as one, what you once defined as yourself is both there and not. What if your awareness were just a perception, a perspective, and you experienced many?

The notion of many "we"s and "I"s becomes apparent, or the sum of its parts.

Welcome to the forum, Simon.
Fascinating questions which deserve another thread but they are off the topic - for which I am partly responsible by pointing out that science is based on faith. The issue is why God allowed Job to suffer (which presupposes the existence of persons!).

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks! And you gave me a lot to chew on about the OT. I’ve been reading the CCC, but you’ve distilled the essential points in a way that would have taken me forever.

Yes, it’s a lot more than a glimmer of divinity. A bad and unwarranted choice of words, but it does describe how I’ve reacted to it. It is still very difficult for a neophyte like me to get my head around the OT, which can be pretty shocking. It creates a lot of internal dissonance for me. In mass, the first reading is usually from the OT, and for me it is often the most uncomfortable part of the hour.

My spirit brightens as the readings proceed to the letters and the Gospel, upon which the subsequent homily usually focuses. I find myself very thankful that I am a Christian.

Peace be with you.

The difficulties disappear if we interpret the OT according to the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father. The Israelites were not infallible…

 

[Shelf_Catechist]

Job suffers, so God does not exist, does that mean should I see a child cry, the parent doesn’t exist? Deep thoughts for a quick conclusion.
There would be no Passion without Jesus’ suffering, likewise there would be no Book of Job without Job suffering. Pain shows us who we really are. In my youth I have been allowed to run away from pain because I was an only child. In my teens and twenties I likewise lacked discipline to finish what I started.
Discipline requires the endurance of what hurts. Even atheists understand that.
Endurance is always understood in the context of exercise and exercise requires a goal(s) to hit. Since atheism deny’s the existence of God the “goal” to be with Him in Everlasting Life evaporates. Therefore, why morally discipline ourselves, why hurt?
Us as Catholic friends, we must figure out how to reconstitute what has evaporated into what the non-believing can see and touch, what they can experience with their senses.
Pray to God to create a cloud over said non-believer and ask him to “make it rain” or maybe just sprinkle some Holy Water on them whilst your talking to them…

 

[tonyrey]

Job suffers, so God does not exist, does that mean should I see a child cry, the parent doesn’t exist? Deep thoughts for a quick conclusion.
There would be no Passion without Jesus’ suffering, likewise there would be no Book of Job without Job suffering. Pain shows us who we really are. In my youth I have been allowed to run away from pain because I was an only child. In my teens and twenties I likewise lacked discipline to finish what I started.
Discipline requires the endurance of what hurts. Even atheists understand that.
Endurance is always understood in the context of exercise and exercise requires a goal(s) to hit.

Welcome to the forum!

Since atheism deny’s the existence of God the “goal” to be with Him in Everlasting Life evaporates. Therefore, why morally discipline ourselves, why hurt?
Us as Catholic friends, we must figure out how to reconstitute what has evaporated into what the non-believing can see and touch, what they can experience with their senses.
Pray to God to create a cloud over said non-believer and ask him to “make it rain” or maybe just sprinkle some Holy Water on them whilst your talking to them…

Non-believers are less impressed by a miracle that can be explained away than by a person like Pope Francis who puts into practice the teaching of Jesus.

“By their fruits you shall** know** them”…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The notion some have that suffering is intrinsically evil has no support in fact.

Suffering in many ways is a warning to us to change our lifestyle or our present appetites.

Suffering is a sign that we are in physical trouble and need healing.

Suffering is sometimes what a physician requires of us in order to heal us.

Most of all, suffering often provides moral and psychological catharsis.

There is hardly anyone who has suffered who has not been changed for the better by his suffering, has not learned patience and endurance, has not learned insights about his own character and the character of those around him who have to witness his suffering.

Finally, the suffering that we go through as we prepare to die helps to humble us in the presence of death, and even after we die as we are purged to make us clean in the presence of our Lord at last.

 

[pristine2]

The notion some have that suffering is intrinsically evil has no support in fact.

I’m still new to Catholicism, but I associate suffering with evil. By the same token, I think, it is the presence of evil that helps define what is good.

No matter what benefits may accrue from suffering, and whether or not God intends it, I believe that it is a primary duty of all Christians to alleviate suffering. It is part of what it means to be Christian, is it not?

I can hardly imagine a situation where suffering, especially that inflicted by other people, can be justified. I’ve seen, and experienced, far too much of it to believe otherwise. And at least some Catholics believe that suffering originated with sin, not with God. The Israelites certainly believed this – seems like that’s what the book of Genesis is all about. There was no suffering in Eden.

As I understand it, the suffering Jesus accepted on the cross bonded him absolutely with humanity. No one can say God does not understand suffering. Still, the path Jesus traced was one of alleviating the suffering of the people – never to cause it.

 

[rcwitness]

Suffering is what we are subject to in this land, because of our fallen nature. God does not want us to suffer, but to suffer and overcome the hardships and temptations through His Spirit. His Spirit came to us through suffering unto death, not because of a fallen nature, but because of a nature coming out of love.

Peace
Michael

 

[rcwitness]

I’m still new to Catholicism

Welcome to the Church! Enjoy your time in RCIA!

Michael

 

[pristine2]

Welcome to the Church! Enjoy your time in RCIA!

Michael

Thank you!

I should have updated my profile before – I was baptised, took first communion and was confirmed during Triduum.

Very happy to be among this community. Still have much to learn.

 

[Aloysium]

Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said,
“I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
‘Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”

 

[tonyrey]

The notion some have that suffering is intrinsically evil has no support in fact.

Suffering in many ways is a warning to us to change our lifestyle or our present appetites.

Suffering is a sign that we are in physical trouble and need healing.

Suffering is sometimes what a physician requires of us in order to heal us.

Most of all, suffering often provides moral and psychological catharsis.

There is hardly anyone who has suffered who has not been changed for the better by his suffering, has not learned patience and endurance, has not learned insights about his own character and the character of those around him who have to witness his suffering.

Finally, the suffering that we go through as we prepare to die helps to humble us in the presence of death, and even after we die as we are purged to make us clean in the presence of our Lord at last.

Objections to suffering per se are based on a shallow, hedonistic view of life. In some cases it serves no useful purpose but to expect everything to be purposeful is to demand the impossible. An earthly Utopia is an infantile fantasy:

"385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or** the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures**: and above all to the question of moral evil. "

 

[oldcelt]

Objections to suffering per se are based on a shallow, hedonistic view of life. In some cases it serves no useful purpose but to expect everything to be purposeful is to demand the impossible. An earthly Utopia is an infantile fantasy:

"385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or** the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations** proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. "

Some of the objections are not hedonistic…they just relate to a different view of God. In some belief systems, God neither permits nor causes anything related to humanity.
Suffering is just the consequence of living. All of us are subject to illness, accident and the wear and tear of aging.
Unfortunately, ain’t no gettin’ around that last one.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . In some cases it serves no useful purpose but to expect everything to be purposeful is to demand the impossible. . . .

I don’t think I can agree with you here.
It is my experience that one can always find meaning:

• Suffering can break the bonds of attachment to what is transient, to lesser goods, to what is created, rather than our Creator.
• Suffering can break a person, but at the same time it makes one stronger in many ways.
• We frequently call out to God, thereby opening up this most important of relationships.
• It can lead one to forgive the unforgivable.
• Usually one becomes a more compassionate person
  One has to keep working on it.

Back to Job;
Until he is tested, can he truly be said to be holy and to love God?

Much of the Book of Job describes a situation similar to what we do here.
People are arguing passionately about themselves, life and God.
It ends in glory, face to face with God.

All the holy writings and discussions have that one goal - to bring us to God, to relate to Him directly (joined with all humanity and creation).