Why did God condone/command this?

[kainosktisis]

Yes to the first part, but to the second, I was referring to commentaries or other such writings w/ Church approval. Study Bibles usually don’t present a whole lot of in-depth commentary.

 

[goout]

I understand your point, but on what basis do you decide what is literal vs literalist?

Can you please point me to an authoritative Church-approved text indicating what Scripture is interpreted as one or the other?

Well, if you’re looking for CNN type Church approved defining lines, you won’t find them.
That’s why we have some of the sources I referenced above. Have you read any of that?

We read the scriptures as a community. And that’s messy. We depend on scholars and theologians to help us with that. The Church allows us freedom to read scripture and take it’s Truth into our hearts as individuals. But that freedom is not the same thing as license.

A real basic analogy:
Based on natural revelation of the way the world works, we know the metal dome in the sky does not exist, factually. Now, we have the freedom to believe the dome is up there, but that would be an ignorant position. The Church does not give us the license to be ignorant.

 

[Gorgias]

I was referring to commentaries or other such writings w/ Church approval.

I don’t think that a third-party writing would necessarily get the kind of ‘approval’ that means “this is the infallible interpretation of the Church in this matter.” That kind of approbation only comes when the Church quotes it in a magisterial teaching and thereby adds its authority to it. On the other hand, what a bishop might do is to say simply “I find nothing in here that contradicts the faith.” That doesn’t mean that it becomes a statement of the magisterium, however.

 

[goout]

Yes to the first part, but to the second, I was referring to commentaries or other such writings w/ Church approval. Study Bibles usually don’t present a whole lot of in-depth commentary.

There is an almost limitless amount of reading you can do on this topic.
I personally like Benedict’s apostolic exhortation that I listed above.

And especially Theology of the Body, which does not specifically set out to discuss these points, but shows how JP2 reads scripture and brilliantly exposes Truth from it.

 

[kainosktisis]

There is an almost limitless amount of reading you can do on this topic.
I personally like Benedict’s apostolic exhortation that I listed above.

And especially Theology of the Body, which does not specifically set out to discuss these points, but shows how JP2 reads scripture and brilliantly exposes Truth from it.

I am not a scholar, that’s why I asked for information - preferably for the layman to understand.

 

[goout]

kainosktisis:

I was referring to commentaries or other such writings w/ Church approval.

I don’t think that a third-party writing would necessarily get the kind of ‘approval’ that means “this is the infallible interpretation of the Church in this matter.” That kind of approbation only comes when the Church quotes it in a magisterial teaching and thereby adds its authority to it. On the other hand, what a bishop might do is to say simply “I find nothing in here that contradicts the faith.” That doesn’t mean that it becomes a statement of the magisterium, however.

This topic does not always avail itself of simple definitive answers, because it deals with:

1. God’s inspiration, large amounts of which eludes our intellect
   and
2. human expression, which is messy to a frustrating degree

I like to keep in mind that scripture is not always meant by God to give us pat answers to questions (sometime it is…"thou shalt not kill for instance)
, it is meant to draw us into a life of prayer, so that we come to know him through Christ. That is a journey, not a pat answer.

 

[goout]

goout:

There is an almost limitless amount of reading you can do on this topic.
I personally like Benedict’s apostolic exhortation that I listed above.

And especially Theology of the Body, which does not specifically set out to discuss these points, but shows how JP2 reads scripture and brilliantly exposes Truth from it.

I am not a scholar, that’s why I asked for information - preferably for the layman to understand.

What do you think of sec 42 from Verbum Domini?

 

[kainosktisis]

I don’t know. I’ve never read it before.

 

[goout]

I don’t know. I’ve never read it before.

You have questions, why don’t you go to resources that can answer them?

 

[Cimachol]

I heard Bishop Robert Barron speak about this passage. He viewed it as being primarily about Saul’s unwillingness to completely purge evil from his kingdom. Saul hung on to those things that he felt would benefit him instead of faithfully carrying out God’s command. This is a common theme in the Old Testament – the Israelites repeatedly have opportunities to cleans their nation of evils – for example, in 1st and 2nd Kings we read over and over about kings who refuse to completely purge Israel of pagan worship, particularly of Ba’al. Even when a king does tear down all the temples to Ba’al, which happens several times, the next king builds the temples back up.

What Bishop Barron recommended that we take from this is to look at our own lives and where we refuse to push evil out completely – what do we hang onto because it gratifies us, even though we know it is not of God?

 

[rose321]

So, God is not saying that their children or donkeys or jewelry was evil – just that the Israelites were not permitted to profit from them.

Respectfully toward nicely stated Peace

 

[MiserereMei25]

Wait. So we can take literally the historical stuff… but Any miracles or moments when God speaks in the Old Testament is just allegorical or “spiritual?”

 

[undead_rat]

Blessed is the one who acknowledges our Creator and His wonders and who confesses that He is not to be questioned about what He does.
Mirzah Husayn Ali

It is not for us as human beings to question what our Creator does or says.

 

[Ridgerunner]

An obvious ‘flaw’ in the creation story (if it were literal) is that apparently days existed before God created the sun

But is it? I read long ago that the Hebrew word commonly used for “day” also can mean an indefinite “period of time”.

People in the 19th Century said the same thing about “Let there be light”, saying there couldn’t be light before creation of the sun. We now understand that the Big Bang long preceded creation of the sun, but did create light.

It’s easy to critique the bible, but we should be cautious about declaring the meaning when it speaks of things about which we have little or no real knowledge but better understand of which may come in time.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

An obvious ‘flaw’ in the creation story (if it were literal) is that apparently days existed before God created the sun

No, an obvious flaw in your reasoning is that you are defining “day” in the human way, in terms of the earth and sun. A “day” to God could be defined any way he likes, and as someone else pointed out, the original word used for “day” just meant some period of time. Which still doesn’t quite capture it since God’s time is nothing like our time.

One “day” for God could be thousands of earthly years, or it could be a millisecond. God would decide when his “day” began and ended.

 

[rose321]

We read the scriptures as a community. And that’s messy. We depend on scholars and theologians to help us with that. The Church allows us freedom to read scripture and take it’s Truth into our hearts as individuals. But that freedom is not the same thing as license.

Respectfully opinion only.

Finding a wise saying opinion only…

Our Heavenly Father has a long long history of choosing those in whom were thought of as being insignificant to… accomplish the impossible…

Many Men/Woman, Apostles unlearned in the written word or some never even heard of Our Heavenly Father when he choose them?.

Our Heavenly Father Spoke…Spoken still continues to do so does he not? Our Heavenly Father… all in whom he has chosen,. filling them … I will place my spirit within them?.

.Those within he had chosen to serve him he filled … with divine knowledge, understanding giving them the tools needed to accomplish their task mission give and to spread… his Spoken Word?..

Our Heavenly Father did not sit down first… and… right long letters sending them out first… to those he chose … Men/Woman …in serving him?

Written…You do not ask me, seek me, nor knock at my door…So he must be able to hear our prayers and answer us? Why prayer if he cannot hear?

Jesus tells us let your ears hear, right?

Was Jesus telling us it is not what we read, but what we hear?

One does not need to be a scholar or theologian do we to know him?
What is written in scripture seems to teach us other wise?
I choose whom and I Will and I give mercy to whom I give mercy, is this not written?

Jesus tells us with St Peter…You did not learn that from me Peter, but from my Father…NT St Peter was a fishermen who could not read or write?

Those he choose where not highly educated in the law nor served within the Temple nor were they scribes ( teachers, yet Jesus gives theses scribes all his Woes, rebukes them harshly, why?

Just ponder

Question is…Was it our Heavenly Father who …condone /commanded this…or those saying he did… to justify their own.self interest and… inhuman atrocities??

Peace toward
Interesting topic but in fairness all has to be looked at not just one verse to fully comprehend what is taking place and before this occur so much more also?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Animals don’t have the same dignity as humans and they were probably considered as unclean since the gentiles used them.

 

[kainosktisis]

Verbum Domini?

I wanted to update this to say that I had in fact read the above-quoted section of Verbum Domini & had hurriedly misunderstood the question as having read the whole of Verbum Domini.

I had a moment to listen to Bishop Barron’s video, & I agree with it, but I will say that for me, agreeing does not necessarily discount history.

 

[TULIPed]

Indeed. If memory serves, Saul didn’t do as the Lord commanded - at least not fully.

I wonder what sins represent the Amalekites in my life, and how seriously I take them?

 

[ShrodingersCat]

It’s pretty widely recognised by historians and scholars that oral history from OT times is not literal. Numbers were symbolic. Stories were embellished. Do you really think Tobias fought a demon? That Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt? These are all symbolic occurrences within a story. They are truths, but not the literal truth.

I’m just trying to illustrate that a literal reading of the bible is simplistic and inaccurate. Of course most people know parables arent real, which is why it’s a perfect example to show that truths can be contained in non literal stories.

If you disagree, take it up with Trent Horn, Pope Benedict and others who I’ve learned these points of view from