Why did God create a world were babies are killed?

[VociMike]

Maybe there is no god and because of their properties natural processes trick humans into thinking there is a god. It does not seem that you have presented any evidence to back up the Catholic assertions about God. However, all of this is kind of beside the point of this thread.

Let’s understand that neither side can present “evidence” that the other side will accept. We cannot “prove” God’s existence to you, and you cannot “prove” God’s non-existence to us. Not only do those who believe in God believe by faith, but those who do not believe in God also believe by faith. At the end of the day neither side can offer objective proof of their belief.

 

[VociMike]

To clear something up, while I am atheist (agnostic really), for the purpose of this thread I am working from the presumption that the universe was created.

You are also working from the presumption that suffering and death are “bad”. But from an agnostic perspective, how can you make such a judgement? And how can you judge that suffering and death among the young (objective fact) and “innocent” (another judgement!) is even more “bad”?

 

[catharina]

Richard, echoing vociMike, it’s more than likely that no one here will be losing his/her faith to your uncertainties. Nor can anyone here “convince” you to become a man of faith. Faith is first and foremost a gift from God and then, for believers, it is an act of the will. I can easily state that all good comes from God as you wonder if evil things comes from God. In fact, it’s probably easier for me to state my faith with certainty.

 

[seekerz]

If I may respond to your comments about innocent babies dying of disease in the ages before modern medicine:

Let me be the first to admit that we human believers do not have all the answers to your questions. My initial (natural, human) reaction to any suffering, disappointment or great discomfort in my life is usually, “Why, Lord, why?”.

To understand (even imperfectly and to a limited extent) the mysteries of suffering and death, it is necessary to turn to Him - not from Him.

Can I explain to my satisfaction or yours why those babies had to suffer? Perhaps not. But I do know that every kind of human suffering/discomfort/need has spurred mankind on to find remedies/cures/solutions. That has in turn led to the gradual (and in recent centuries, dramatic) improvement in living conditions on our planet.

What’s in it for the babies who suffered and died before modern cures/treatments were found. Well, we can’t know since we’re not privy to the details of their lives or deaths. All we know is that they died, if and how much they suffered we can only guess; what awaited a particular baby beyond death, I’m not sure.

So, even if we can’t always explain the why’s of a particular person’s suffering, we see that human suffering in the long term is not pointless. It’s only the long-term picture that we glimpse and time after time, in various spheres of human life, human suffering has been the springboard for change, progress and improvement.

Christ’s suffering is an example for all of us. By His death, He transformed our lives, not just on earth, but for all eternity.

Suffering may hurt and we may not understand it, but it sure can produce some spectacular results.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Richard, echoing vociMike, it’s more than likely that no one here will be losing his/her faith to your uncertainties. Nor can anyone here “convince” you to become a man of faith. Faith is first and foremost a gift from God and then, for believers, it is an act of the will. I can easily state that all good comes from God as you wonder if evil things comes from God. In fact, it’s probably easier for me to state my faith with certainty.

It is not a question of you losing faith or me gaining. The issue is how can God be said to love all humans when he has created a world in which babies have died and suffered greatly. It does nothing to say that these death led to people behaving better in the future, because that just makes them a means to an end. How did God show his love for these particular babies?

Would it not be more honest to say that you do not know if God loves all humans?

 

[Richard_Powers]

You are also working from the presumption that suffering and death are “bad”. But from an agnostic perspective, how can you make such a judgement? And how can you judge that suffering and death among the young (objective fact) and “innocent” (another judgement!) is even more “bad”?

People do not like to suffer. It is pretty much a basic part of suffering. If you love someone you don’t create situations where you know they will suffer. Do you think the many babies died of painful diseases enjoyed it? If you loved someone would you create a situation where they would suffer? That is what God did (if he exists), so how can it be said that God loves all humans? Maybe God does not love some humans.

 

[catharina]

It is not a question of you losing faith or me gaining. The issue is how can God be said to love all humans when he has created a world in which babies have died and suffered greatly. It does nothing to say that these death led to people behaving better in the future, because that just makes them a means to an end. How did God show his love for these particular babies?

Would it not be more honest to say that you do not know if God loves all humans?

You might have to admit your surprise that I have an answer for this. It was my particular privilege to give 3+ years of my life to the care of injured, damaged and on occasion, dying babies and toddlers in a skilled nursing unit. One baby’s life and death, especially, stays vividly with me to this day. The reason: I was the attending who was asked to bathe the body of this dead baby. This unspeakably beautiful, gravely ill child was in our care for six months. He died at the age of ten months. How did God show His love for this baby. For one thing and of this I’m certain, he sent me. (For another thing, he sent my colleagues too.)

I’m certain that I would never have met that baby, or cared for him, or fed him or changed his diapers or comforted him - or been able to bathe his dead body (as an act of devotion and privilege) - if I did not believe that I was working in that job as “called by God,” as a response to God’s grace in my life. Quite simply, I loved the baby as if he were my own child bu birth. A number of my colleagues felt exactly the same way and brought the same LOVE and comfort and care to him. Being with him at the end of his days and providing that final act of resp[ect after his death was a life changing event for me, for all of us who had him in our care.

**How did God show his love for this particular baby? He sent me and I thank Him for it.

 

[theistgal]

People do not like to suffer. It is pretty much a basic part of suffering. If you love someone you don’t create situations where you know they will suffer. Do you think the many babies died of painful diseases enjoyed it? If you loved someone would you create a situation where they would suffer? That is what God did (if he exists), so how can it be said that God loves all humans? Maybe God does not love some humans.

If you don’t mind my asking, what suffering have you personally experienced which is causing you to ask these questions? Are you sincerely seeking an answer, or are you just hoping to disrupt someone else’s belief system?

And what do you say to people who have suffered and say, “I can look back now and see how the suffering I endured helped me to become a better person”? Not all suffering results in despair and unending misery.

 

[catharina]

Would it not be more honest to say that you do not know if God loves all humans?

It might be “more honest” for you at this time in your life. I don’t know about that. Yet for me, I am completely certain of God’s love for all people - God says so. In using me to love and serve children with extraordinary needs, I am only more certain of God’s universal love for all since IN NO WAY did I deserve such an experience.

At one and the same time, it was humbling and uplifting.

 

[Richard_Powers]

If you don’t mind my asking, what suffering have you personally experienced which is causing you to ask these questions? Are you sincerely seeking an answer, or are you just hoping to disrupt someone else’s belief system?

I have not experienced any suffering personally that is causing me to ask these question, but I look around the world and see so much suffering and I know of the suffering that people experienced in the past. I am not trying to disrupt anyone. I am trying to understand.

And what do you say to people who have suffered and say, “I can look back now and see how the suffering I endured helped me to become a better person”? Not all suffering results in despair and unending misery.

Of course not all suffering results in despair and unending misery. Some suffering may led to growth and development for the individual. But what do you say about the babies that have been born with horribly painful diseases that died a few days later? How was this good for them? How did God love them?

 

[Richard_Powers]

You might have to admit your surprise that I have an answer for this. It was my particular privilege to give 3+ years of my life to the care of injured, damaged and on occasion, dying babies and toddlers in a skilled nursing unit. One baby’s life and death, especially, stays vividly with me to this day. The reason: I was the attending who was asked to bathe the body of this dead baby. This unspeakably beautiful, gravely ill child was in our care for six months. He died at the age of ten months. How did God show His love for this baby. For one thing and of this I’m certain, he sent me. (For another thing, he sent my colleagues too.)

I’m certain that I would never have met that baby, or cared for him, or fed him or changed his diapers or comforted him - or been able to bathe his dead body (as an act of devotion and privilege) - if I did not believe that I was working in that job as “called by God,” as a response to God’s grace in my life. Quite simply, I loved the baby as if he were my own child bu birth. A number of my colleagues felt exactly the same way and brought the same LOVE and comfort and care to him. Being with him at the end of his days and providing that final act of resp[ect after his death was a life changing event for me, for all of us who had him in our care.

**How did God show his love for this particular baby?

He sent me and I thank Him for it.

And what about all the babies that did not have someone to care for them? What about the countless babies that have died shortly after death from disease for the past 150,000 years? Not all of them had someone to care for them and not just because people choose not to care for them. What all the babies that were born so horribly deformed and sick they could not even perceive the care that a person could give them?

 

[catharina]

And what about all the babies that did not have someone to care for them? What about the countless babies that have died shortly after death from disease for the past 150,000 years? Not all of them had someone to care for them and not just because people choose not to care for them. What all the babies that were born so horribly deformed and sick they could not even perceive the care that a person could give them?

Richard, until you chose to seek faith and follow after it, there will be no answers for you. It’s that simple. Much of what you’re saying is based in demeaning assumptions, assumptions about the care many people willingly give to sick children for example, and assumptions about adults who are easily used by God (in the serivce of others) when they allow Him primacy in their lives. I can assure you that I could not have done the work I’ve done in my lifetime without God’s grace. I know too that I am the least of many and others do far more. To sit and question, hmmm … may I ask what you do with your life?

For that baby in my care, God provided - through me. Could He provide the same through you? Should it always be the responsibility of me and others while you ponder and question?

 

[VociMike]

People do not like to suffer. It is pretty much a basic part of suffering. If you love someone you don’t create situations where you know they will suffer. Do you think the many babies died of painful diseases enjoyed it? If you loved someone would you create a situation where they would suffer? That is what God did (if he exists), so how can it be said that God loves all humans? Maybe God does not love some humans.

Do humans never subject other humans to suffering, or allow them to be subject to suffering, in order to help them? Any fairly mature human being knows that what people “like” is not the be all and end all of human existence. Do you really think that the key to human existence is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, by whatever means and at whatever cost?

So far you have not offered an alternative vision of how God (if he exists, obviously) should be doing things. You seem to believe he should allow humans to live forever on this planet, but when I asked how is that better than being in heaven I did not see a reply by you. So, describe a world in which suffering of any kind is impossible. Describe, in particular, how people such as you and me would behave and would treat each other in such a world.

 

[catharina]

Do humans never subject other humans to suffering, or allow them to be subject to suffering, in order to help them? Any fairly mature human being knows that what people “like” is not the be all and end all of human existence. Do you really think that the key to human existence is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, by whatever means and at whatever cost?

So far you have not offered an alternative vision of how God (if he exists, obviously) should be doing things. You seem to believe he should allow humans to live forever on this planet, but when I asked how is that better than being in heaven I did not see a reply by you. So, describe a world in which suffering of any kind is impossible. Describe, in particular, how people such as you and me would behave and would treat each other in such a world.

Oh goodie! Thank you, vociMike. I’ll get some popcorn.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Do humans never subject other humans to suffering, or allow them to be subject to suffering, in order to help them? Any fairly mature human being knows that what people “like” is not the be all and end all of human existence. Do you really think that the key to human existence is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, by whatever means and at whatever cost?

I have already said that suffering can led to good things. But what good is that for the baby that only experienced suffering and death? How does this help the baby? How God showing love to this baby?

To sit and question, hmmm … may I ask what you do with your life?

Right now I volunteer for a legal aid society and attend school.

So far you have not offered an alternative vision of how God (if he exists, obviously) should be doing things. You seem to believe he should allow humans to live forever on this planet, but when I asked how is that better than being in heaven I did not see a reply by you. So, describe a world in which suffering of any kind is impossible. Describe, in particular, how people such as you and me would behave and would treat each other in such a world.

I have already said that suffering can be good for people. But how is good for the baby that only experienced suffering and death? The baby that did not have time to develop to the level necessary to understand her suffering?

EDIT- I think I just mixed up two posters posts in this response.

 

[Richard_Powers]

For that baby in my care, God provided - through me.

And what the other babies that didn’t have anyone? What about the babies so messed up they cannot perceive anything but pain? What about a baby born near a just exploded volcano that only experiences chocking to death on ash?

 

[catharina]

And what the other babies that didn’t have anyone? What about the babies so messed up they cannot perceive anything but pain? What about a baby born near a just exploded volcano that only experiences chocking to death on ash?

My point, Richard, is that in this day and age, there is plenty to occupy people without taking the time to choose to fault God. Every minute when you choose to ponder argumentations is a minute when you might be of service to others. Do you understand? In asking people on this forum for opinions, you’re avoiding the only possible advice many of us have offered, that is: seek God.

Because while you acknowledge Him and yet blame Him, you are part of the problem.

 

[Richard_Powers]

My point, Richard, is that in this day and age, there is plenty to occupy people without taking the time to choose to fault God. Every minute when you choose to ponder argumentations is a minute when you might be of service to others. Do you understand? In asking people on this forum for opinions, you’re avoiding the only possible advice many of us have offered, that is: seek God.

Because while you acknowledge Him and yet blame Him, you are part of the problem.

So can I take it you cannot answer the questions?

Really if you are so sure that God loves all humans and loved all humans you should be able to answer these questions:

And what the other babies that didn’t have anyone? What about the babies so messed up they cannot perceive anything but pain? What about a baby born near a just exploded volcano that only experiences chocking to death on ash?

Edit - And even if God does not love every human it does not mean that God is at fault if he exist. God would not have to love every human. But if you are going to say that he does love every human you should be able to answer the questions I put to you.

 

[catharina]

So can I take it you cannot answer the questions?

Really if you are so sure that God loves all humans and loved all humans you should be able to answer these questions:

And what the other babies that didn’t have anyone? What about the babies so messed up they cannot perceive anything but pain? What about a baby born near a just exploded volcano that only experiences chocking to death on ash?

Edit - And even if God does not love every human it does not mean that God is at fault if he exist. God would not have to love every human. But if you are going to say that he does love every human you should be able to answer the questions I put to you.

Oh Richard. (Poor Richard.) I have answered the question. Many have answered the question. I live in faith. It is faith that tells me God loves all. Why do you expect to get to that any other way than through faith? For me, the essential matter of faith is “what am I doing to serve God?” Not “does God love all?” I know that God loves all. I know that through my faith.

Same answer, all the time. I know through faith.

Very simple and very profound. You can be angry at me, at anyone, but our faith is lived in our lives - because we have faith, a gift from GOD.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Oh Richard. (Poor Richard.) I have answered the question. Many have answered the question. I live in faith. It is faith that tells me God loves all. Why do you expect to get to that any other way than through faith? For me, the essential matter of faith is “what am I doing to serve God?” Not “does God love all?” I know that God loves all. I know that through my faith.

Same answer, all the time. I know through faith.

Very simple and very profound. You can be angry at me, at anyone, but our faith is lived in our lives - because we have faith, a gift from GOD.

You have given no answer other than I have faith. Which is just another way of saying that you don’t know, but you accept that God loves all children. That is no real answer. You should be able to answer these questions:

And what the other babies that didn’t have anyone? What about the babies so messed up they cannot perceive anything but pain? What about a baby born near a just exploded volcano that only experiences chocking to death on ash?

with something better than I don’t know know how God showed them love but I have faith that he did. It seems that you are using faith as a way of avoiding a difficult issue.