Why did God create a world were babies are killed?

[Meathead]

Richard, all you are doing is arguing. If you were actually seeking an answer, you would be content with the multiple ones we have given you. You don’t even warrant an answer from me on this because you don’t want to accept one unless it flat-out states that God does not exist, Science is always right, and everything we do in life is meaningless because we are just going to die in this cruel world anyways.

I have seen people like you before, and I believed and argued like you at one point (when I was like… 12), so I know for a fact that you don’t seek understanding. Now before you start bashing me and getting defensive, you should really think about why you brought this topic up. Maybe you think you wanted an answer, but deep down in your heart all you wanted to do was try to corrode as many people’s faith as possible.

You will never find understanding Richard, unless you want to understand.

Do some soul-searching, you need it.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Richard, all you are doing is arguing. If you were actually seeking an answer, you would be content with the multiple ones we have given you.

I do not find any of the answers satisfying. Nobody has yet given me a straight answer that explains how God loves babies that suffer and die without understanding. Just saying you have to have faith God loves them is no answer.

You don’t even warrant an answer from me on this because you don’t want to accept one unless it flat-out states that God does not exist, Science is always right, and everything we do in life is meaningless because we are just going to die in this cruel world anyways.

I am not even arguing against the existence of God. This whole thread assumes that God exists. An answer that said God does not exist would be meaningless to this thread.

I have seen people like you before, and I believed and argued like you at one point (when I was like… 12), so I know for a fact that you don’t seek understanding. Now before you start bashing me and getting defensive, you should really think about why you brought this topic up. Maybe you think you wanted an answer, but deep down in your heart all you wanted to do was try to corrode as many people’s faith as possible.

You will never find understanding Richard, unless you want to understand.

Do some soul-searching, you need it.

There would be no corroding of anyone’s faith if one of the believers here would just directly answer the question. In fact it would strengthen people’s faith. I find your attempt to reframe this issue by attacking my motives very interesting. Maybe this is because you cannot answer the questions I have put forth. It seems like a simple thing. If believers want to say God loves every human, they should be able to answer clearly how God loves babies that suffer and die without understanding without just resorting to saying you have to have faith he does or it is a mystery.

 

[catharina]

I do not find any of the answers satisfying. Nobody has yet given me a straight answer that explains how God loves babies that suffer and die without understanding. Just saying you have to have faith God loves them is no answer…

Richard, I doubt that you find anything satisfying and also I have to wonder if you’ve ever had any experience of love. Love generally involves sacrifice to insure the peace and comfort of the other, when possible. If God had “decided” to deprive me of sacrificial love, the love that is the norm for all people, I can’t imagine that would make me a better person or a more satisfied person. Why you seem to seek comfort and assurance in explanations when life is to be lived, I can’t imagine. Are you very young?

 

[jmcrae]

Why do bad things happen to little babies and children? Why did God create a world in which babies will be killed by earthquakes, floods, disease, etc. A friend told me that it is because of man’s fall. But things like earthquakes and floods have been around since before man even evolved?

The difference being that there was no such thing as death, and such things did no harm. When Adam sinned, death came into the world, and with it, suffering.

Instead of wiping out the world (and us, and everyone who is yet to come, along with it), God decided to work with it in its broken state. Many things happen that God allows, but did not intend. This is because He intends an even greater thing - that we be with Him in Heaven forever.

God could also have miraculously caused the consequences of Original Sin to go away, but He chose not to, because He is just as well as compassionate. It might seem like love to let people get away with their sins, and not experience any consequences, but we don’t grow if we can’t learn from our mistakes and from the mistakes of others.

Death is not the end of live - it is a new beginning in a much better and happier world. The suffering of death is completely forgotten in the joy of the resurrection to new and eternal happiness.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Richard, I doubt that you find anything satisfying and also I have to wonder if you’ve ever had any experience of love. Love generally involves sacrifice to insure the peace and comfort of the other, when possible. If God had “decided” to deprive me of sacrificial love, the love that is the norm for all people, I can’t imagine that would make me a better person or a more satisfied person. Why you seem to seek comfort and assurance in explanations when life is to be lived, I can’t imagine.

I do have experiences of love. I don’t why you keep talking about God love for you. This thread is those baby that suffer and die without understanding and how God loves them. God’s love for you is irrelevant as to how he showed love for these babies.

It honestly seems to me either you should say that you don’t know if God loves these babies or you should explain how he does.

Are you very young?

Pretty young. 24.

 

[Richard_Powers]

The difference being that there was no such thing as death, and such things did no harm. When Adam sinned, death came into the world, and with it, suffering.

Instead of wiping out the world (and us, and everyone who is yet to come, along with it), God decided to work with it in its broken state. Many things happen that God allows, but did not intend. This is because He intends an even greater thing - that we be with Him in Heaven forever.

God could also have miraculously caused the consequences of Original Sin to go away, but He chose not to, because He is just as well as compassionate. It might seem like love to let people get away with their sins, and not experience any consequences, but we don’t grow if we can’t learn from our mistakes and from the mistakes of others.

Death is not the end of live - it is a new beginning in a much better and happier world. The suffering of death is completely forgotten in the joy of the resurrection to new and eternal happiness.

By the time humans evolved there was already death in the world. How do you explain this?

 

[catharina]

I do have experiences of love. I don’t why you keep talking about God love for you. This thread is those baby that suffer and die without understanding and how God loves them. God’s love for you is irrelevant as to how he showed love for these babies.

It honestly seems to me either you should say that you don’t know if God loves these babies or you should explain how he does.

Pretty young. 24.

Richard, because I am completely certain of God’s love for me though I’ve done nothing to be worthy of that love and because I’ve suffered a great deal through personal losses and two long life-and-death illnesses, I know through faith that God loves all - especially those “babies of yours” and others who might feel they are alone in inexplicable suffering. I know it because I know through faith, that God loves me.

As He loves me for no reason other than the essential “God is love” so I know too He loves others. Do I see the other side of the curtain, after death, what life has become for those babies? No. Do I believe it’s glorious? Yes - because God promises love and mercy to all… Somehow, even those babies can choose God, God’s time being different from our time. To have faith, you ask for faith. God is ever-present.

You want faith, you ask for faith. None of us can give it to you.

 

[seekerz]

Ultimately, Richard, no one can answer all of your questions about suffering because none of us fully understands God.

I have to tell you though that suffering viewed from the outside is not the same as going through it yourself or having someone close to you suffer.

My example? One of the happiest, sweetest persons I ever knew died at a young age after a prolonged struggle with cancer. Until I knew her I’d always felt that for someone whose days were numbered by terminal illness, life would surely be meaningless/futile. Not so, I found with my young friend and her beautiful family. They cherished each day as you would treasure a bonus - even when she could no longer communicate. Who am I to question why she left so soon when her short, painful life held such love and beauty?

You keep generalizing about babies who died and how they suffered, do we know for sure that the babies you refer to underwent any more suffering than the average sick child would? Maybe they just succumbed after a short illness; maybe they suffered, maybe they didn’t. Suffering and death are two distinct entities.

To my mind, in order to have any fruitful discussion, one has to have the perspective of the person/persons actually suffering (as illustrated by my example above). Only then can you truly discuss what, if anything, the sufferer gets out of his experience.

Why would a God who loves us allow suffering? Well, if there’s something valuable to be gained from it, I don’t see why not.

Why would I take the children I love to have painful shots? Why wouldn’t I send a ticket to my homesick college freshman calling home every day to say how miserable she was? Why would I insist that my grown son move out and struggle financially when there’s more than enough room in my house and money to spare in my bank account? Do I not love my children? Or do I just want them to be healthy, educated, responsible citizens?

 

[Richard_Powers]

Why would a God who loves us allow suffering? Well, if there’s something valuable to be gained from it, I don’t see why not.

Why would I take the children I love to have painful shots? Why wouldn’t I send a ticket to my homesick college freshman calling home every day to say how miserable she was? Why would I insist that my grown son move out and struggle financially when there’s more than enough room in my house and money to spare in my bank account? Do I not love my children? Or do I just want them to be healthy, educated, responsible citizens?

I agree that value can be gained from suffering and I have said so repeatedly. Suffering can help a person develop and grow. That is why I want to discuss those that suffer with no hope of growth from the experience. Babies have been born with painful diseases that will and do kill them before they have develop to the stage necessary to understand the suffering and to use it grow. What is the suffering doing for these individuals (not those around them)? What is the suffering doing for a baby born next to a volcano that just exploded that will just choke to death on the ash? What is the suffering doing for a baby born with a horribly painful disease that will kill her a few hours after birth?

 

[seekerz]

The answer, Richard, is that we don’t know. Who knows the mind of God (or of babies for that matter)? It would be wrong to assume that their suffering was pointless just because we can’t see the point of it.

Since I know God loves me, I believe that even the suffering of babies (if indeed they suffer in the same way adults do) has just as much meaning and purpose as anyone else’s.

 

[Richard_Powers]

The answer, Richard, is that we don’t know. Who knows the mind of God (or of babies for that matter)? It would be wrong to assume that their suffering was pointless just because we can’t see the point of it.

Why isn’t it just as wrong to assume there is a point? Wouldn’t a more honest answer be to say you don’t know if there is a point and you don’t know if God loved that baby? I don’t understand why Catholic are so sure God loves that baby. Just saying it is faith seems like a way saying we don’t know but we don’t want to say we don’t know so we know as a matter of faith.

 

[catharina]

The answer, Richard, is that we don’t know. Who knows the mind of God (or of babies for that matter)? It would be wrong to assume that their suffering was pointless just because we can’t see the point of it.

Since I know God loves me, I believe that even the suffering of babies (if indeed they suffer in the same way adults do) has just as much meaning and purpose as anyone else’s.

Also to Richard: your specifics are close to bizarre. They’re so focused and unreachable. OTOH, I’ve given personal care to many children who were dying. Therefore I can no longer afford to humor you in you intellectual pursuits. I have faith in a loving God. Faith is a gift of God. You should ask for it if you want it.

 

[catharina]

PS - Richard.

Think whatever you wish of me and I couldn’t care less.

My strength is my Faith.

 

[seekerz]

Why isn’t it just as wrong to assume there is a point? Wouldn’t a more honest answer be to say you don’t know if there is a point and you don’t know if God loved that baby? I don’t understand why Catholic are so sure God loves that baby. Just saying it is faith seems like a way saying we don’t know but we don’t want to say we don’t know so we know as a matter of faith.

I’m saying we can’t prove that there is or isn’t a point to that kind of suffering but that my faith in a loving God leads me to believe there is a point.

Everything else I know about God through reason, intellect and faith, indicates that He loves man. Therefore, it would be more reasonable to believe that His love does not exclude a particular segment of humanity than to believe that it does.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I do not find any of the answers satisfying. Nobody has yet given me a straight answer that explains how God loves babies that suffer and die without understanding. Just saying you have to have faith God loves them is no answer.

There would be no corroding of anyone’s faith if one of the believers here would just directly answer the question. In fact it would strengthen people’s faith. I find your attempt to reframe this issue by attacking my motives very interesting. Maybe this is because you cannot answer the questions I have put forth. It seems like a simple thing. If believers want to say God loves every human, they should be able to answer clearly how God loves babies that suffer and die without understanding without just resorting to saying you have to have faith he does or it is a mystery.

Fair question … about the suffering of babies.

What if … human (whether it is an innocent baby or even an adult) suffering, while causing hurt and injury and pain at the instant … at the moment … has absolutely no comparison with the wonders of Heaven.

There have been many books written about suffering … what is the reason for it, etc. But not that many books about what Heaven is like.

Life does have pain associated with it … part Original Sin … part free will manifested in “man’s inhumanity to man” … part randomness of nature (earthquakes, floods, mud slides, hurricanes & typhoons, volcanic eruptions, and meteor hits, etc. … so-called Acts of God) .

But let us read some really interesting books about Heaven … what we can extract from the Bible, for example. “A Travel Guide to Heaven” by Anthony DeStefano is my favorite. Peter Kreeft has also written one, I believe.

So. while mourning the “human condition” … this vale of tears … is legitimate, take a look at what awaits us “on the other side” … in Heaven.

Each of us has a purpose … a specific mission. God has a plan for each of us. It may or may not coincide with our personal wishes or dreams or fantasies. I am convinced that each of those innocent babies also has (or has had) a specific mission.

Consider the martyrdom of the Holy Innocents, those babies who were killed in the mistaken hope that the Messiah could be killed off in infancy. Their murders helped to define the Messiahship of The Christ, the anointed one.

Our earthly existence is not and was not intended to be “heaven on earth”.

Read up on heaven in Heaven.

 

[VociMike]

Can anything that can back up the assertion that God loves all humans. Since you know this to be true you should already have this evidence unless you have accepted this assertion without evidence.

But you reject our evidence. You reject the entire Judeo-Christian revelation handed down for many thousands of years, which is our evidence. So describe to us the kind and amount of evidence that you would accept. Describe what evidence would convince a non-believer. Complete this thought: “Even though some human beings, including babies, suffer greatly, I would believe that God loves them if it could be shown…”

 

[theistgal]

Why isn’t it just as wrong to assume there is a point? Wouldn’t a more honest answer be to say you don’t know if there is a point and you don’t know if God loved that baby?

Um … you specifically said, in your OP:

Please don’t say it is just a mystery.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree that value can be gained from suffering and I have said so repeatedly. Suffering can help a person develop and grow. That is why I want to discuss those that suffer with no hope of growth from the experience. Babies have been born with painful diseases that will and do kill them before they have develop to the stage necessary to understand the suffering and to use it grow.

This life is not all there is. After they die, they can come to understand and use the experience to gain even greater happiness in Heaven.

What is the suffering doing for these individuals (not those around them)? What is the suffering doing for a baby born next to a volcano that just exploded that will just choke to death on the ash? What is the suffering doing for a baby born with a horribly painful disease that will kill her a few hours after birth?

It is providing them with the grace to enter into the experience of the Crucifixion, and to understand what exactly it is that Jesus did for them, to get them into Heaven. Obviously they don’t understand it in this life (and there are even adults who don’t understand this) but when they die and meet Jesus face to face, then their minds become enlightened, and they are able to make the connection.

 

[Newbie2]

How can this be? Death and things like earthquakes, floods, and disease have been around since before humans even existed.

Perhaps, based on what we know today, but we don’t know that beyond any doubt.

Is it within the realm of possibility that humans lived in areas where there were none of these things (earthquakes, etc.) were present? That only after the fall that humans began to be affected by these sort of natural disasters?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Perhaps, based on what we know today, but we don’t know that beyond any doubt.

Is it within the realm of possibility that humans lived in areas where there were none of these things (earthquakes, etc.) were present? That only after the fall that humans began to be affected by these sort of natural disasters?

What is your understanding of geologic history?

We know that meteorites have caused terrible damage before humans arrived on the scene. We have seen the craters. There is geologic data on sediment layers that were deposited by events such as volcanic eruptions and ejecta from meteorite hits.

We know that some species, such as mastadons, died very suddenly. So there have always been cataclysmic events.