Why Did God Create Man and the Demons if He Knew They Would Disobey Him?

[NM505StKate]

That’s a very surface reading of the text, and one probably hindered by the English language, too.

How is it illogical? Whatever a demon’s intentions, could it not help better accomplish God’s plans?

So Christian god is evil? At the very least indifferent. All loving, to me, would not involve having a creature that is “pure evil” in any plan. See how illogical it is.

 

[NM505StKate]

Where are you learning all of this from? It is all so very wrong.

Think about it. Something is made, like a computer, and programed a certain way. Now Yahweh created Adam and told only Adam not to eat the fruit (at least in Genesis 2). In this: skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html They are just repeating like parrots what they have been told. They don’t know good and evil so how could they know it was wrong?

 

[pacloc]

Think about it. Something is made, like a computer, and programed a certain way. Now Yahweh created Adam and told only Adam not to eat the fruit (at least in Genesis 2). In this: skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html They are just repeating like parrots what they have been told. They don’t know good and evil so how could they know it was wrong?

Are you being serious or just posting ridiculous things to derail threads? If you are being serious, I ask again, where have you learned such strange interpretations of the creation as found in the Old Testament and in Christianity? Are you just reading the Bible and coming to your own conclusion?

 

[NM505StKate]

Are you being serious or just posting ridiculous things to derail threads? If you are being serious, I ask again, where have you learned such strange interpretations of the creation as found in the Old Testament and in Christianity? Are you just reading the Bible and coming to your own conclusion?

I am coming to my own conclusions as well as looking up as much information as possible. Sometimes I find things that make me say wow. I try to be serious but I let some snark in to not always be so serious.

 

[tamedlion]

Think about it. Something is made, like a computer, and programed a certain way. Now Yahweh created Adam and told only Adam not to eat the fruit (at least in Genesis 2). In this: skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html They are just repeating like parrots what they have been told. They don’t know good and evil so how could they know it was wrong?

God created Adam and Eve sinless, not stupid. They had common sense to know that they had to obey what God had told them, until they were tempted. Remember, angels were/are intelligent beings but some of them also failed.

 

[mikekle]

Think about it this way, what would free will look like if Satan and the other angels never rebelled and there never was a ‘fall’.

What would 'that other choice be"?

The fall was necessary for us to even have the ability to choose.

Its why God did not destroy satan and other fallen angels, or send to some deep dark pit away from everything…instead he cast them down to earth with us…Gee, that is awfully convenient.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

God paid a high price to go ahead with creation, if he knew in advance that Jesus would die.

 

[Wesrock]

So Christian god is evil? At the very least indifferent. All loving, to me, would not involve having a creature that is “pure evil” in any plan. See how illogical it is.

Or perhaps your logic is flawed or your knowledge incomplete. Or perhaps you’re just looking at it from the wrong angle.

 

[Wesrock]

Think about it. Something is made, like a computer, and programed a certain way. Now Yahweh created Adam and told only Adam not to eat the fruit (at least in Genesis 2). In this: skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html They are just repeating like parrots what they have been told. They don’t know good and evil so how could they know it was wrong?

You keep saying they don’t “know good and evil.” That’s the surface level reading of the text I was referring to.

And, a slight tangent here, but with Genesis, and I’m not really speaking of the account of the Fall but in mind other stories, like those of the Patriarchs, the text doesn’t give you everything the way a contemporary story would. sometimes it just states “the facts” (if you, as a skeptic, will allow me to use that term) and you have to interpret things, read between the lines, about how the author intends you to judge what’s going on in the narrative and the motivations of the actors in the story. What’s in the actual text is sometimes very barebones (you’ll usually notice this more with older works, newer Biblical books are sometimes more fleshed out). Perhaps due to the expense of writing it down and transmission, not to mention it was accompanied by an oral tradition and wasn’t just dropped in a vacuum. Just look at all the commentaries, varying interpretations, and midrashes in Judaism today. Not that Christians and Jews align 100% on how to interpret every detail, but that’s the type of context these books were written for. Not just to read it outside of context.

 

[Vonsalza]

Since God knows all things, past, present, and future, why did God still create Man and the Demons? Both beings turned against him/disobeyed him.

The question inherently implies “God wouldn’t deliberately create anything that would disobey Him.”

I’m not sure that’s knowable or assumable.

 

[tamedlion]

God paid a high price to go ahead with creation, if he knew in advance that Jesus would die.

I never thought about it this far but you hit it perfectly.

 

[steve_b]

But Adam and Eve didn’t know what right and wrong were until they ate the fruit. How could they disobey when they couldn’t understand the meaning of it? Why give angels “free will” when it knows what will happen unless Christian god and the devil are working together. There isn’t any logic behind it and I don’t believe god can be illogical.

That’s a very surface reading of the text, and one probably hindered by the English language, too.

Actually, having received the command from God not to eat of THAT tree mentioned, and the consequences if they do eat, was given in advance as well, so everything was known up front in advance by A & E…

Gen 2:
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

A and E’s sin was, they disobeyed and order from God. And they felt the consequence for their action immediately.

Bottomline, we don’t live in a consequence free existence

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Since God knows all things, past, present, and future, why did God still create Man and the Demons? Both beings turned against him/disobeyed him.

Instead of asking why? Maybe instead ask, what could be the **greatest purpose **to create man?

Can God create anything greater than children in his own image?

Could God love each and every one of us as he loves himself? Can there be any greater purpose for God to create children in his own image?

If God loves us as he loves himself, are we are given the greatest commandments to return God’s love?

Are we are given the second greatest commandment to love all our neighbours as we love ourselves? Because God loves everyone as he loves himself.

Can the greatest commandments have a greatest meaning for God?

Can God love us more than he loves himself? Yes, because Jesus died for us. Or maybe no, because God is all powerful, and he holds the power of heaven or hell over all of us.

This is just a collection of words to challenge the mind to think.

 

[eddie_too]

i figure God created man and demons knowing they would sin because that is the only way He could share His eternal Life with me.

if He had created a different reality, i would not be me and thus i could not live with God eternally.

are there those who believe that they can separate who they are from the reality in which they exist? i do not understand how that could be.

 

[NM505StKate]

Actually, having received the command from God not to eat of THAT tree mentioned, and the consequences if they do eat, was given in advance as well, so everything was known up front in advance by A & E…

Gen 2:
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

A and E’s sin was, they disobeyed and order from God. And they felt the consequence for their action immediately.

Bottomline, we don’t live in a consequence free existence

While there are consequences for actions few things to remark. For Christians the original sin was eating the fruit, for Jewish people it was when Cain killed Able. Interesting point is that why would Yahweh put a tree of eternal life in the garden in the first place? Maybe Adam and Eve were meant to die no matter what?

I find the story more of how the ancient people first learned to farm rather than hunt and gather.

 

[steve_b]

While there are consequences for actions few things to remark. For Christians the original sin was eating the fruit, for Jewish people it was when Cain killed Able.

I was under the impression that Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin.

Jews who did convert to Jesus however, believed in all doctrines of the Christian faith, original sin being one of the doctrines…

Kate:

Interesting point is that why would Yahweh put a tree of eternal life in the garden in the first place? Maybe Adam and Eve were meant to die no matter what?

God put a test to A & E. He knew in advance they would fail the test. It’s not like they failed and God said oh shoot, I guess we go to plan B.

Angels are creatures also. They as creatures, were created before us. They were tested as well, in their beginning. Their test is over, and 1/3 of them failed. The fallen angels (now demons) remain fallen forever and the rest of the angels remain glorified forever.

Now it’s our turn to be tested. While we are in this existence, we will be tested till our last breath. Those who remain faithful to God will be glorified forever, those who won’t, will be in hell forever.

Kate:

I find the story more of how the ancient people first learned to farm rather than hunt and gather.

It’s far bigger than that.

 

[NM505StKate]

I was under the impression that Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin.

Jews who did convert to Jesus however, believed in all doctrines of the Christian faith, original sin being one of the doctrines.

Maybe I misread. It was just the first sin was done by Cain to Abel.

God put a test to A & E. He knew in advance they would fail the test. It’s not like they failed and God said oh shoot, I guess we go to plan B.

Think about that. Yahweh already knew man would fall. There wasn’t any “free will” because the outcome was already known. So then did Yahweh create people just to suffer? It appears so because it already knew man would fall.

Angels are creatures also. They as creatures, were created before us. They were tested as well, in their beginning. Their test is over, and 1/3 of them failed. The fallen angels (now demons) remain fallen forever and the rest of the angels remain glorified forever.

So again if Yahweh knew the angels would fall and created them anyway Yahweh brought evil and suffering into the world knowingly. Wouldn’t that contradict “all loving”?

Now it’s our turn to be tested. While we are in this existence, we will be tested till our last breath. Those who remain faithful to God will be glorified forever, those who won’t, will be in hell forever.

But Yahweh already knows who will pass and who wouldn’t. That isn’t “free will”. Brings up the question, to me, then Yahweh created people to be eternally tortured?

I

t’s far bigger than that.

To you maybe but looking at it from a different set of eyes no.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

But Yahweh already knows who will pass and who wouldn’t. That isn’t “free will”. Brings up the question, to me, then Yahweh created people to be eternally tortured?

Jesus died for me and for you, that must mean he loves us as much as he loves himself.

If you love someone as you love yourself, then why would you torture them for eternity?

 

[steve_b]

Maybe I misread. It was just the first sin was done by Cain to Abel.

The first sin was eating the fruit that God said not to eat. Maybe the fruit is an analogy. The point being, God said don’t do something or else there is a serious consequence, and they disobeyed God anyway…and were thrown out of the garden as well as other negative consequences for their disobedience. THAT was the first sin. Up to that time they were perfect human beings. As a result of that first sin, they couldn’t pass on their original perfection to all the generations that followed. After all , one can’t pass on to their family what they lost. Only what they themselves have to give.

Cain killing Abel came AFTER A& E were thrown out of the garden for disobeying God. Cain committed the first murder, A & E committed the first sin, the original sin…

Kate:

Think about that. Yahweh already knew man would fall. There wasn’t any “free will” because the outcome was already known. So then did Yahweh create people just to suffer? It appears so because it already knew man would fall.

God didn’t force the angels nor A&E to disobey. Nor does He cause or force ANYONE to sin. We all have free will. A & E as well as the angels who failed, could have chosen to obey. Instead they chose to disobey. THAT’S what free will is all about. All have choices. And during the test, A & E nor the angels were in a consequence free reality, nor are we in a consequence free reality while we are being tested.

Kate:

So again if Yahweh knew the angels would fall and created them anyway Yahweh brought evil and suffering into the world knowingly. Wouldn’t that contradict “all loving”?

Yet 2/3 of the angels passed the test.

The fact !/3 failed is NOT because God wanted it that way, THE angels who failed, freely chose what they did, and God allowed the consequences to take place.

Kate:

But Yahweh already knows who will pass and who wouldn’t. That isn’t “free will”. Brings up the question, to me, then Yahweh created people to be eternally tortured?

If God forced them to fail which He didn’t, and they had no choice in the matter which they did, then their will wasn’t free which it was, And GOD wasn’t all love, which He is.

If you are interested, here’s what the Catechism says on “free will” ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=free+will&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[NM505StKate]

Jesus died for me and for you, that must mean he loves us as much as he loves himself.

If you love someone as you love yourself, then why would you torture them for eternity?

Did he? All we have is stories that were written down far after the fact. I agree that if I love someone as much as I love myself I would not want to torture them, in fact I would never have made a place of eternal torture.