Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

[Spock]

It is an interesting and tough question. But we can also ask the same kind of question about our human parents. Why did they create us knowing we would die someday and knowing that we would suffer mental anguish thinking about our own mortality?

Good question. There are two possible answers. One is the biological imperative built into us coupled with the pleasurable aspect of procreation. Of course, both can be overcome, if one really wants to do it. But there is no good reason why should one resist the pleasure. With proper precautions the procreative part can be prevented, and many people choose not to procreate. The other answer is selfishness. The want to have children, they enjoy the process of loving and caring for them. After all there is a lot of joy watching your child grow. It is a selfish behavior, precisely for the reason you pointed out. The parents have no control over the fate of the children.

But the point of the thread is somewhat different. God is under no obligation to create anyone (just like the parents). On the other hand, unlike the parents, God allegedly knows what the fate of everyone will be. If a prospective parent would know that their child will end up in hell, and suffer for all eternity - and still would choose to create that child, the parent would not be considered “loving” by any stretch of imagination.

 

[benedictus2]

Sure, but they could. That is the point.

Actually that is not the point.
Let me retrace this discussion.
You said “If something cannot be experienced at all (even in theory) that it does not matter if it is “there” or not.”

And so I gave the example of the dumb,deaf,blind man to make the point that even if something is not experienced, it does matter.

The point is not whether something could be experienced, but whether their existence matters even if such existence is not experienced by another person.

Another example:

A charity organization that works in Africa building schools and feeding the children. There are 2 donors. Donor A contributes 10% of the fund, Donor B contributes 90%. Donor B is completely anonymous. Not only do the Africans not know his identity, they don’t know how much of the money spent on the schools and food came from him.

The Charity organization does not tell them how much funds are donated. They will never know of Donor B, nor how much he contributes, nor his existence nor his identity.

So this goes on for a long time, and some of the children have grown and passed away not knowing about Donor B who provided for their education and their food.

Did and does Donor B’s existence make a difference? You bet it did and does.

So whether you are aware of God or not, it does make a difference because everything you have, the people who love you, your talent, your life, all came from Him even though you may not know Him.

But here’s the sad part, if you do know Him you will be grateful but as it is you do not know who to be grateful to.

As someone said to an atheist, “when you are so joyful, so happy, who do you thank?”

No, that is not what I said. I said that if there is (no) way to detect the existence of something, then it does not matter if that “thing” exists or not.

Only if the thing that exists has no impact on your life. But if this “Thing” that exists has a lot to do with your life, then whether you know it or not, it makes a difference. It is making a difference to your life, but you just don’t know that it is doing so.
I amended your quote because I think you meant “no” way. Correct me if I’m wrong.

How else? Give me an example. Tell me what I must do to achieve that awareness. (But, please, be specific. Don’t say that if I ask for it, long enough and hard enough and sincerely enough, then “sometime, somehow” I will be given that awareness.)

Supernaturally. A Supernatural being cannot be grasped naturally unless it manifests itself in a natural way (God became man).

A Supernatural being with all the attributes that we give to God is more than capable of making Himself felt, known, other than in the natural manner for the simple fact that He is supernatural. There is of course the presupposition that there is a supernatural dimension to each of us.
And God does make Himself known when we ask - but being God- it is according to His time.

I gave you a link where you can download Fr Calloway’s story for $2. Awareness of God does not always come in this miraculous and sudden manner, for atheists. But every now and again God does do these things for a reason.

You just answered your own question. If there is no expression of love, there is no way to know it. Moreover, if there is no expression of love, then it does not matter if I am “loved” or “hated”.

Not always. Sometimes you know someone loves you even before they express it.

Only if they expressed it in the past.

Not necessarily. As I said above, sometimes you are aware of someone’s love even before they express it.

 

[exnihilo]

But the point of the thread is somewhat different. God is under no obligation to create anyone (just like the parents). On the other hand, unlike the parents, God allegedly knows what the fate of everyone will be. If a prospective parent would know that their child will end up in hell, and suffer for all eternity - and still would choose to create that child, the parent would not be considered “loving” by any stretch of imagination.

God knows the fate of everyone with regards to Heaven and Hell. Parents know every child’s fate with regards to dying. For any parent who does not believe in any possibility of an afterlife they create their child with the full knowledge that it will be annihilated.

Furthermore each parent who creates a child does so knowing that some will be live a life of trouble. Some children will have diseases that cut short their life. Some will have difficulty in society. Some will die from tragic accidents. The wise parent knows that for some of their children no matter what they do in raising that child it will experience trouble. Parents might not have perfect knowledge of which child they create will experience what trouble. But they know that some percent will experience tremendous trouble and they know that all children will have some struggles that cause suffering.

The reason for thinking about that is that while I think reason can help us to understand much it is impossible for the human mind to fully understand God and His purposes. Many people find the why of creation when some are destined to Hell to be a stumbling block. Some people use it as a reason to argue against God. If one is to conclude there is no God because of their thinking on this topic I would suggest they then think about what monsters this then makes their human parents.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

God knows the fate of everyone with regards to Heaven and Hell. Parents know every child’s fate with regards to dying. For any parent who does not believe in any possibility of an afterlife they create their child with the full knowledge that it will be annihilated.

Furthermore each parent who creates a child does so knowing that some will be live a life of trouble. Some children will have diseases that cut short their life. Some will have difficulty in society. Some will die from tragic accidents. The wise parent knows that for some of their children no matter what they do in raising that child it will experience trouble. Parents might not have perfect knowledge of which child they create will experience what trouble. But they know that some percent will experience tremendous trouble and they know that all children will have some struggles that cause suffering.

The reason for thinking about that is that while I think reason can help us to understand much it is impossible for the human mind to fully understand God and His purposes. Many people find the why of creation when some are destined to Hell to be a stumbling block. Some people use it as a reason to argue against God. If one is to conclude there is no God because of their thinking on this topic I would suggest they then think about what monsters this then makes their human parents.

If your going to compare parents…to God or the idea of creation, why are you omitting the well known fact that 99.9% of all born are unintentional…?

Why do people think God has or had a purpose exactly…? Can creation not be a consequence… Are we all not consequences.?

 

[Spock]

You said “If something cannot be experienced at all (even in theory) that it does not matter if it is “there” or not.”

And so I gave the example of the dumb,deaf,blind man to make the point that even if something is not experienced, it does matter.

I see the misunderstanding. TO the person, who does not know about the helpers, it does not matter if there is one or more. For the outsider, who knows the extent of the contrubition it matters. But the outsider can experience the extra help.

So whether you are aware of God or not, it does make a difference because everything you have, the people who love you, your talent, your life, all came from Him even though you may not know Him.

It would be nice if there would be some substantiation for this proposition. I give credit to the people around me, I give credit to my parents, etc…

As someone said to an atheist, “when you are so joyful, so happy, who do you thank?”

It depends. If the happiness is brought forth by someone, then I thank the responsible party for it. If it is due to some natural causes, then I do not give thanks to anyone. Converesly, if something bad happens due to the action of someone, then I blame the person in question. If something bad happens due to some natural event, I do not blame anyone. Compare that to the believers’ attitute. If something good happens they thank God for it. If something bad happens they blame… can you guess Mother Nature for it. From this side it is hilariously funny.

Only if the thing that exists has no impact on your life. But if this “Thing” that exists has a lot to do with your life, then whether you know it or not, it makes a difference. It is making a difference to your life, but you just don’t know that it is doing so.

Again, if it impacts my life, then I can detect it. I do not believe in magic. Any impact is a physical impact, which can be detected, either directly, or using some measurements. New age believers assert auras, they claim that pyramids have beneficial effects, etc… I do not believe their claims either.

I amended your quote because I think you meant “no” way. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Thank you. Typos can be really annoying when they change what one wants to say.

And God does make Himself known when we ask - but being God- it is according to His time.

What can I say? I am ready to accept God, if and when he chooses to manifest himself. If he does not wish to do it, then it is God’s fault that I cannot experience him.

Not always. Sometimes you know someone loves you even before they express it.

Not necessarily. As I said above, sometimes you are aware of someone’s love even before they express it.

Give me an example.

 

[Spock]

God knows the fate of everyone with regards to Heaven and Hell. Parents know every child’s fate with regards to dying. For any parent who does not believe in any possibility of an afterlife they create their child with the full knowledge that it will be annihilated.

Don’t change the subject. Of course parents know that their children will die. Death in not a big deal, it is part of existence. We are talking about eternal torture. Not even in the same ballpark. Parents do not “know” for sure, that their children will suffer. They can surmise that some of them will. They hope that their children will be the exception. But it is true, and I already agreed that procreation is an irrational and selfish behavior.

Many people find the why of creation when some are destined to Hell to be a stumbling block.

With very good reason, too.

Some people use it as a reason to argue against God.

If they argue against God’s love and benevolence, then they are right. Agape or benevolence is to act in the best interest of the loved one. And no one can argue that it is in the best interest of anyone to be created to be tortured forever.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Don’t change the subject. Of course parents know that their children will die. Death in not a big deal, it is part of existence. We are talking about eternal torture. Not even in the same ballpark. Parents do not “know” for sure, that their children will suffer. They can surmise that some of them will. They hope that their children will be the exception. But it is true, and I already agreed that procreation is an irrational and selfish behavior.

With very good reason, too.

If they argue against God’s love and benevolence, then they are right. Agape or benevolence is to act in the best interest of the loved one. And no one can argue that it is in the best interest of anyone to be created to be tortured forever.

I think the big disconnect is that you are limiting God to a purely human, limited understanding of ‘best interest’ for one, and that you’re also taking a consequence (eternal hell, PART of which is torture as a CONSEQUENCE of a freely chosen act of will) and trying to argue back that this is not simply a consequence but a divinely arbitrary punishment.

It is hard because we are limited to human words, and words themselves do not mean the same thing to the same person. Even when I use a simple word like ‘blue’ it reflects what I understand ‘blue’ is. Any person who has ever been dealing with yarn or thread and asks another person to ‘pass me that blue’ thread only to be handed violet or purple because that is what the other person thinks is ‘blue’ realizes that.

It is in the best interest of people to (obviously) do what they are ‘designed’ for. Humans are designed for eternal life, and life with God at that.

However, just because it is in their best interest doesn’t mean they can’t freely walk away.

Now. . .tell us how God can ‘fix’ the fact that some people just do not love. Will not love.

Is He to simply annihilate them? That’s not love.
Is He to MAKE them be good? That’s not love. It isn’t fair either to those who choose the good without being forced.
Is He to allow them to come into heaven hating every second? That’s not love either. It might be in their best interest not to be tortured but it isn’t their choice.

So, what is God to do? We have a real problem if you are limiting His choices only to either let everybody have heaven even if they don’t want it (unfair to all), or if you’re saying he has to ‘make’ the bad people good (unfair to all).

Any ideas?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I have a short lunch break today so I will respond only to one of your points.

The major problem (which is the root of the rest of the errors) is that you regard Love as an attribute of God. It is not. Love IS who God is. It is His essence.

Furthermore, it is not limiting in any sense except that it does exclude the opposite. It would be as limiting as saying that He is God so it precludes Him being NOT God. If you call that limitation then that it is an absurd idea of limitation…

So you will need to restructure your thinking around that.

I intentionally changed to word attribute…as you complained.

I used the …GOD IS LOVE…over and over in previous posts so you could NOT wiggle out
of addressing my logical point, you are very aware of this.

If I change the wording from limitation to…“circumstance which cannot be” or “without” which means the same thing you will argue.

You will argue becuase I believe the idea of God in your mind most co-relates of how
YOU THINK you would BE…if you were God. Man wants God to be like himself so he can
relate …to himself for higher self realization. A pre-historic insecurity.

My post is entirely logical and in keeping with all that we reasonably know. As well let me tell you something…

The idea, which for the most part is all we can have on this side of reality is further plausible as it provides hope where there is no hope.

There are so many implications its ridiculous…

Try to provide a consequence in result of offered thinking.

1. A person goes to church, love God and is terribly burned, or tortured over seas for no good reason. The mind cannot avoid idea’s of rejection where your idea of God is concerned.
   Its Sunday…time to go to church…NO WAY. God you say ?..look at me…youv’e GOT to be joking:!
2. Try explaining man shovelling intentionally burned bodys into a pit…or to a father who watchs his children intentionally tossed into an oven…try and tell him YOUR IDEA OF GOD MAKES SENSE…again, NO WAY

You cannot do it. Not a chance. Your stuck with your favorite word…MYSTERY.:a cop out

There are many other extrodinairy understandings , the most of which is the clear approach
to God himself without human clutter. Human clutter, guilt, illogical and contradictory suggestions of God are the reasons why…people are not buying the God idea and getting with a real participation in hope for reason. No Doubt about it. As well many instances of
loss of faith are due to failed understandings

Of course this quality to my thought was well expected as all the postings are available and read.

 

[exnihilo]

If your going to compare parents…to God or the idea of creation, why are you omitting the well known fact that 99.9% of all born are unintentional…?

Why do people think God has or had a purpose exactly…? Can creation not be a consequence… Are we all not consequences.?

I’m not sure where you get this number. It seems to me many people intend to have kids. Many people go through great effort to improve fertility to have kids. Obviously not all people do not intend to have children.

If God has a will then He has a purpose. Even for humans we infer purpose from facts. If you were accused of murdering a relative and prior to the murder you had money problems and spoke to someone regarding that persons beneficiaries most folks would infer you had the purpose to kill that person to collect money and pay off debts. In that case you would not have to have made a statement of intention for reasonable people to realize you had a purpose.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I’m not sure where you get this number. It seems to me many people intend to have kids. Many people go through great effort to improve fertility to have kids. Obviously not all people do not intend to have children.

If God has a will then He has a purpose. Even for humans we infer purpose from facts. If you were accused of murdering a relative and prior to the murder you had money problems and spoke to someone regarding that persons beneficiaries most folks would infer you had the purpose to kill that person to collect money and pay off debts. In that case you would not have to have made a statement of intention for reasonable people to realize you had a purpose.

Your avoiding the issue. I said consequence.Assuming a God exists, what makes people think his ultimate purpose was to create man…? Man or the Universe may be a consequence, as
most life is a consequence.
Mans creative expression as in propogation, is hardly something which is entirely purposed in having children…give me a break:thumbsup:

 

[exnihilo]

Don’t change the subject. Of course parents know that their children will die. Death in not a big deal, it is part of existence. We are talking about eternal torture. Not even in the same ballpark. Parents do not “know” for sure, that their children will suffer. They can surmise that some of them will. They hope that their children will be the exception. But it is true, and I already agreed that procreation is an irrational and selfish behavior.

How is you know death is no big deal? You dont know what death is or feels like. What is a big deal is the torment thinking about mortality can cause. I would hope you would agree that many people suffer thinking about death. In fact that is used as a way to attack religion. Many people claim religion is made up to ease the fear of death. I for one dont dispute thinking on death causes anguish.

I think all people suffer to some extent. I know of no ones life that is without some degree of suffering. So I’ll hold to the statement that parents know their children will suffer. They do not know to what degree.

If you are going to accept that procreation is irrational and selfish that has some interesting consequences. But how could it be selfish to commit to raising a creature at the expense of your own comfort? If procreation is irrational why would creatures who dont have free will engage in a destructive behavior? If this is true why would the first life form reproduce?

If they argue against God’s love and benevolence, then they are right. Agape or benevolence is to act in the best interest of the loved one. And no one can argue that it is in the best interest of anyone to be created to be tortured forever.

To be tortured forever would not be the purpose of creation. The purpose would be to enjoy fellowship with God. But if you cant enjoy fellowship with God then wouldn’t it be torture to forever be forced into fellowship with God? It seems you are saying God should negate your choice regarding wanting to have fellowship with him.

 

[exnihilo]

Your avoiding the issue. I said consequence.Assuming a God exists, what makes people think his ultimate purpose was to create man…? Man or the Universe may be a consequence, as
most life is a consequence.
Mans creative expression as in propogation, is hardly something which is entirely purposed in having children…give me a break:thumbsup:

I’m afraid I dont quite get what you are asking.

Are you suggesting that there is another consequence other than man to creation? That might be so if you consider that man is the best way to achieve whatever the ultimate purpose is. But if the purpose is fellowship then men, with Free Will, would be the best way to achieve that purpose which would be why God chose as He did.

 

[Spock]

I think the big disconnect is that you are limiting God to a purely human, limited understanding of ‘best interest’ for one, and that you’re also taking a consequence (eternal hell, PART of which is torture as a CONSEQUENCE of a freely chosen act of will) and trying to argue back that this is not simply a consequence but a divinely arbitrary punishment.

It is hard because we are limited to human words, and words themselves do not mean the same thing to the same person. Even when I use a simple word like ‘blue’ it reflects what I understand ‘blue’ is. Any person who has ever been dealing with yarn or thread and asks another person to ‘pass me that blue’ thread only to be handed violet or purple because that is what the other person thinks is ‘blue’ realizes that.

It is in the best interest of people to (obviously) do what they are ‘designed’ for. Humans are designed for eternal life, and life with God at that.

However, just because it is in their best interest doesn’t mean they can’t freely walk away.

Now. . .tell us how God can ‘fix’ the fact that some people just do not love. Will not love.

Is He to simply annihilate them? That’s not love.
Is He to MAKE them be good? That’s not love. It isn’t fair either to those who choose the good without being forced.
Is He to allow them to come into heaven hating every second? That’s not love either. It might be in their best interest not to be tortured but it isn’t their choice.

So, what is God to do? We have a real problem if you are limiting His choices only to either let everybody have heaven even if they don’t want it (unfair to all), or if you’re saying he has to ‘make’ the bad people good (unfair to all).

Any ideas?

Not create them in the first place. If someone does not exist, there can be no “free will”, and as such there is nothing to violate. By the way, if heaven is eternal bliss and happiness, then it would be impossible to “hate every second of it”.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I’m afraid I dont quite get what you are asking.

Are you suggesting that there is another consequence other than man to creation? That might be so if you consider that man is the best way to achieve whatever the ultimate purpose is. But if the purpose is fellowship then men, with Free Will, would be the best way to achieve that purpose which would be why God chose as He did.

No…creation a consequence in the…existence of God. Not a thought out plan by God
What makes you think…a God would actually think? Evidence

 

[Spock]

How is you know death is no big deal?

Insofar millions and billions and trillions went through the process of dying. So far all of them “made it”. Personally, I went through the process myself, I flatlined when I had my first heart-attack. It is no big deal, believe me.

I think all people suffer to some extent. I know of no ones life that is without some degree of suffering. So I’ll hold to the statement that parents know their children will suffer. They do not know to what degree.

Correct.

If you are going to accept that procreation is irrational and selfish that has some interesting consequences. But how could it be selfish to commit to raising a creature at the expense of your own comfort?

Different priorities.

If procreation is irrational why would creatures who dont have free will engage in a destructive behavior?

Many of use choose not to procreate.

If this is true why would the first life form reproduce?

One cell organisms? They had no choice.

To be tortured forever would not be the purpose of creation.

Whatever the purpose might be, it is a belief that hell is not empty (I think it was a heresy to say otherwise), and thus some people do land in there. And it is not in their best interest.

The purpose would be to enjoy fellowship with God. But if you cant enjoy fellowship with God then wouldn’t it be torture to forever be forced into fellowship with God?

If heaven is undescribable, unfathomable happiness and bliss, how could anyone object to that?

It seems you are saying God should negate your choice regarding wanting to have fellowship with him.

If someone has not been created yet, then he has no free will, and as such there is nothing to “negate”.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Not create them in the first place. If someone does not exist, there can be no “free will”, and as such there is nothing to violate. By the way, if heaven is eternal bliss and happiness, then it would be impossible to “hate every second of it”.

If you wanted eternal bliss and happiness, you wouldn’t hate it. But (and I know this is hard to consider since we know how rational and logical humans are ). . .not everybody wants eternal bliss.

Because. . .eternal bliss is conformity to the will of God. (that is, conformity to everything which is logical, rational, good, in our best interest, and perfect).

BUT if you WILL NOT conform to the will of God, you are NOT in conformity with everything which is logical, rational, etc.

Let’s take a mortal sin. . .fornication. God’s will is that you not fornicate, because of the damage this does to your soul and the soul of your partner, even if you don’t SEE that damage or think that your ‘love’ is worth the damage.

And you do not, will not, refuse to repent. You march yourself up to God at death and say, “I don’t care that your will is right and true and just. I wanted to screw my partner and I think my love is better than YOUR WILL and so I want MY will. I know that means I don’t get eternal bliss but since eternal bliss means accepting your will, the hell with it, literally, I want MY WILL.”

Eternal bliss is not having your will. . .it is humbly submitting to God’s will. Tough concept, I will agree. But that’s the truth. And that’s why those who insist on having their will because that is what makes them happy (satisfied) would NOT be satisfied with the eternal bliss of heaven. For them, conformity to God’s will instead of their own would be a greater hell and torment than the hell they freely choose.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Insofar millions and billions and trillions went through the process of dying. So far all of them “made it”. Personally, I went through the process myself, I flatlined when I had my first heart-attack. It is no big deal, believe me.

Correct.

Different priorities.

Many of use choose not to procreate.

One cell organisms? They had no choice.

Whatever the purpose might be, it is a belief that hell is not empty (I think it was a heresy to say otherwise), and thus some people do land in there. And it is not in their best interest.

If heaven is undescribable, unfathomable happiness and bliss, how could anyone object to that?

If someone has not been created yet, then he has no free will, and as such there is nothing to “negate”.

Many…cannot find rest in creation with the idea of hell. I’m included in the many. I choose non existence in potencial bliss with any understanding of an eternal torture chamber. It is a ridiculous notion born out of the same mind which burned people at the steak for no good reason. Hardly God like.

There is no demand in salvation to precisly believe a hell exists. Jesus never even uttered the word hell in the bible. Only once and its unclear , as examined by the experts. Hell is referred to the on going life bereft of living in a proper manner… Its hell.The cross which we all carry is much lighter than the cross of physical progress in aversion to priority …good will.

You asked earlier about evidence that you could put your teeth into a God…dragon in the basement and so on.

If a person shares, or gives of their time in charity towards others in a way, the poor, a warm smile to excite a cheerful day…helping others in need…where this is the objective…the loss will only be self confusion for reason. As reason finds its purpose in charity. The good will in
whole being, is then what spiritual folks find in earthly connection to a real God. God can now be felt…felt strongly…Peace is about. and overwhelms. The soul is recognized and thus God comes to life in the human realization.

I’m in a terrible rush so sorry if this is un-helpful. Although …I have good confidence in the jist of above and your over-all positive interest.
Our reason for being or meaning for life is simple…it is exactly what we are doing. The search …“in of itself” is the utilization of our special tribute…reason. Reason…for…reason.

God being absolute consciousness or perfect reason. (does not require the act of consideration…thinking)

So…Reason for… reason(God-pure reason) … Charity…Peace…and we are home free. God within Peace…Our eternal soul .

 

[Spock]

If you wanted eternal bliss and happiness, you wouldn’t hate it. But (and I know this is hard to consider since we know how rational and logical humans are ). . .not everybody wants eternal bliss.

I cannot accept this. We are all “tuned” toward wanting happiness and avoiding pain. That is our biological nature.

Because. . .eternal bliss is conformity to the will of God. (that is, conformity to everything which is logical, rational, good, in our best interest, and perfect).

I don’t think you can speak authoritatively about bliss. To me it is happiness.

Let’s take a mortal sin. . .fornication. God’s will is that you not fornicate, because of the damage this does to your soul and the soul of your partner, even if you don’t SEE that damage or think that your ‘love’ is worth the damage.

That is simply nonsense. Love is love, whether it is confirmed by a piece of paper or not. Marriage is simply a piece of paper, testifying that two people want their relationship affirmed officially, so that other people would know about it. Look at all those simple tribes where there was no official ceremony, no paper to record a relationship. But people loved each other. What is more important, actual love, or the official paper recording that love?

And you do not, will not, refuse to repent. You march yourself up to God at death and say, “I don’t care that your will is right and true and just. I wanted to screw my partner and I think my love is better than YOUR WILL and so I want MY will. I know that means I don’t get eternal bliss but since eternal bliss means accepting your will, the hell with it, literally, I want MY WILL.”

That is not what would happen in that theoretical case. I would walk to God and say: I loved my partner, and this love was reciprocated. And I think (or sincerely believe) that God would smile at me and accept what I said.

Eternal bliss is not having your will. . .it is humbly submitting to God’s will. Tough concept, I will agree. But that’s the truth. And that’s why those who insist on having their will because that is what makes them happy (satisfied) would NOT be satisfied with the eternal bliss of heaven. For them, conformity to God’s will instead of their own would be a greater hell and torment than the hell they freely choose.

And you think that you are in the position to tell me what God’s will is? Oh, my friend, where is your humility?

 

[Spock]

Many…cannot find rest in creation with the idea of hell. I’m included in the many. I choose non existence in potencial bliss with any understanding of an eternal torture chamber. It is a ridiculous notion born out of the same mind which burned people at the steak for no good reason. Hardly God like.

There is no demand in salvation to precisly believe a hell exists. Jesus never even uttered the word hell in the bible. Only once and its unclear , as examined by the experts. Hell is referred to the on going life bereft of living in a proper manner… Its hell.The cross which we all carry is much lighter than the cross of physical progress in aversion to priority …good will.

You asked earlier about evidence that you could put your teeth into a God…dragon in the basement and so on.

If a person shares, or gives of their time in charity towards others in a way, the poor, a warm smile to excite a cheerful day…helping others in need…where this is the objective…the loss will only be self confusion for reason. As reason finds its purpose in charity. The good will in
whole being, is then what spiritual folks find in earthly connection to a real God. God can now be felt…felt strongly…Peace is about. and overwhelms. The soul is recognized and thus God comes to life in the human realization.

I’m in a terrible rush so sorry if this is un-helpful. Although …I have good confidence in the jist of above and your over-all positive interest.
Our reason for being or meaning for life is simple…it is exactly what we are doing. The search …“in of itself” is the utilization of our special tribute…reason. Reason…for…reason.

God being absolute consciousness or perfect reason. (does not require the act of consideration…thinking)

So…Reason for… reason(God-pure reason) … Charity…Peace…and we are home free. God within Peace…Our eternal soul .

Nice post. Well written. Thank you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I cannot accept this. We are all “tuned” toward wanting happiness and avoiding pain. That is our biological nature.
Actually, we aren’t. You may be lucky enough not to have ever experienced, for yourself or in a loved one, mental illness or disorders. People who actively seek pain (cutting, for example). People who do not want happiness. And the number of those with such illness is not small.

FURTHERMORE, even in matters of pain, pain is subjective. One woman giving birth might feel the pain ‘excruciating’, another woman barely notice.

And ‘avoiding pain’. . .IF the pain is seen as ‘worth’ it, people will seek it. Exercise is painful in that sense but people will seek it out. And don’t even start with tweezing and bikini waxes and cosmetic surgeries etc. . . Our biological nature is extremely varied and it can be overcome.

I don’t think you can speak authoritatively about bliss. To me it is happiness. To YOU. So it’s all right for YOU to speak authoritatively about bliss and claim it’s happiness, but it’s not all right for ME to say differently?

That is simply nonsense. Love is love, whether it is confirmed by a piece of paper or not. Marriage is simply a piece of paper, testifying that two people want their relationship affirmed officially, so that other people would know about it. Look at all those simple tribes where there was no official ceremony, no paper to record a relationship. But people loved each other. What is more important, actual love, or the official paper recording that love?
This came out of left field. I said nothing about marriage so I don’t know why you brought it in. . .and it is NOT a ‘piece of paper’ anyway. BTW, Spock, when all those ‘simple tribes’ found that they were no longer in such a small society that there was no NEED to make official rules because everybody knew each other, or when those ‘simple tribes’ found the need to keep records once they discovered writing. . .did those ‘simple tribes’ people **keep on with having no ‘ceremony’ (where is your proof that in fact they did not, even), or say, "so we have paper now, we don’t NEED to record this’. . .or did those ‘simple people’ themselves find it GOOD to record and keep ceremonies? **

That is not what would happen in that theoretical case. I would walk to God and say: I loved my partner, and this love was reciprocated. And I think (or sincerely believe) that God would smile at me and accept what I said. And you base this on. . .your feelings. But I base this on what God has actually said.

And you think that you are in the position to tell me what God’s will is? Oh, my friend, where is your humility?

If God exists, and has given us spoken teaching in Scripture, and has sent the Holy Spirit and established a Church with authority to preach those teachings, and I tell you what those teachings are, how am I being ‘not humble?’ It’s not like I think I’m God (I am NOT) or that I have some special power (I do not). I am simply His servant; He speaks, I listen, and I obey, and part of that obedience is being willing to repeat those teachings.