Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

[Qoeleth]

Jesus is not just about justice and compassion. This is where a lot make the errror. Christianity is not about soppy ideas of justice and love. Soppy perspective on justice and compassion, these things one can arrive at without Jesus Christ. The Gospel is the Person of Jesus Christ, it is about the God who became incarnate and as such has much to do with cosmology, methaphysics and ontology.

There is nothing vague or ‘New Age" about Jesus’ message of love and justice:
“If anyone wants to be my disciple, let him renounce all his possessions”
“Give to anyone who asks” “Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you”.
The moral commandments of Jesus are exactly what Christianity is about. But Jesus never tells us WHY God made the universe, or hell, or the possibility of sin and suffering.

What is soppy about the ethics of the Gospel, which are indeed “a narrow gate and a hard road”?

 

[greylorn]

Speculation about hell is as difficult as speculation about heaven. But hell is an important image in the Christian imagination. In our hearts, we need to carry this fear, a fear of something worse than death. If we feared nothing worse than death, to continue with life would often seem pointless. Without fear, there is no hope. Since Christians are oriented towards an eternal hope, we need to have the converse, an eternal fear (at the very least, that this hope may not be realised). Whether it is objectively true, “Not even a sage can discover it, although he may claim to know.” (Qo 9:15). But it is true in the sense of being useful, in giving the basis for an ethic and a hope which transcends the here-and-now of personal self-interest.

St. Augustine said “This life, for mortals, is the wrath of God. This world is a small scale hell.”
Schopenhauer also said “The world is hell, and men are one one hand the devils in it, and on the other hand the tormented souls.”

I prefer to think of the world as purgatory, a place in which we pay the price (in suffering and separation from God) for our sins- at a fundamental level “original sin”, i.e. the “sin of existing” (Sartre)

These concepts are deserving of a separate thread. Please consider it. (And if you do, kindly ping me so I don’t miss it.)

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Speculation about hell is as difficult as speculation about heaven. But hell is an important image in the Christian imagination. In our hearts, we need to carry this fear, a fear of something worse than death. If we feared nothing worse than death, to continue with life would often seem pointless. Without fear, there is no hope. Since Christians are oriented towards an eternal hope, we need to have the converse, an eternal fear (at the very least, that this hope may not be realised). Whether it is objectively true, “Not even a sage can discover it, although he may claim to know.” (Qo 9:15). But it is true in the sense of being useful, in giving the basis for an ethic and a hope which transcends the here-and-now of personal self-interest.

St. Augustine said “This life, for mortals, is the wrath of God. This world is a small scale hell.”
Schopenhauer also said “The world is hell, and men are one one hand the devils in it, and on the other hand the tormented souls.”

I prefer to think of the world as purgatory, a place in which we pay the price (in suffering and separation from God) for our sins- at a fundamental level “original sin”, i.e. the “sin of existing” (Sartre)

So then a Christians contribution is given with one hand , the other tied behind the back worried for himself. I guess life would be “pointless”… under those circumstance’s.

.

 

[benedictus2]

There is nothing vague or ‘New Age" about Jesus’ message of love and justice:
“If anyone wants to be my disciple, let him renounce all his possessions”
“Give to anyone who asks” “Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you”.
The moral commandments of Jesus are exactly what Christianity is about. But Jesus never tells us WHY God made the universe, or hell, or the possibility of sin and suffering.

What is soppy about the ethics of the Gospel, which are indeed “a narrow gate and a hard road”?

I never said that Jesus message was new age. There are however some out there who limit the gospel to a kind of soppy understanding of justice and compassion. That is not what the Gospel is all about. Christianity is more than just a few tenets of morality. Christianity is about Christ - the Second Person of the Trinity.

No, the moral commandments of Christianity is not what Jesus is all about. That is just a part of Christianity. Christianity is about Christ - God Incarnate.

Jesus never told us why God made the universe because Jesus was born a Jew. Jesus fulfills Judaism.

The reason so many people get Jesus wrong is because they take Him away from that. The Bible is not just the NT. The Bible is both NT and OT and the NT will not make much sense without the OT.

Creation and suffering were dealt with in Genesis and Job.

And as you pointed out Christ said follow Me. Me.

When the rich young man asked how to get to inherit the kingdom, Jesus told him to follow the commandments. The man said he has done all that since childhood. So Jesus then tells him, sell your possession and follow Me. We are following a Person not just a few moral tenets.

 

[itsmedt]

God certainly knows our fate, however, we don’t. This is the essence of free will. It is less important that God knows the outcome of our lives. Rather, what is critical for salvation are the choices we make and our conduct ourselves while in his presence.

 

[tonyrey]

God certainly knows our fate, however, we don’t. This is the essence of free will. It is less important that God knows the outcome of our lives. Rather, what is critical for salvation are the choices we make and our conduct ourselves while in his presence.

A very warm welcome to the forum!

The OP seems to imply that God shouldn’t have created us, knowing that some of us will be in hell forever. If that is the case we should ask why anyone would choose to be in hell if it didn’t have any compensations. Hell is not a trap but a destination!

 

[Candide_West]

Lets say that I reject God and choose to spend an eternity in hell. *He knew I would make this choice, and yet he still made me. *

If he loved me so much, why would he make me knowing that I would spend an eternity away from him?

Articles on omniscience, predestination, or this exact topic would be loverly.

Hi Peter,

I think there is a broader (but closely related) problem here. I’ve not heard an adequate answer to this one before so would be interested if anyone knows one. I’m sure this isn’t the first time this issue has been raised so I’m interested to see your thoughts.

As far as I can see the Catholic beliefs about God mean that free will is in fact an illusion. To explain (please let me know if I misunderstand or misrepresent catholic belief here);

1. God is omnipotent. That is he is capable of doing anything which is logically possible.*
2. God is omniscient. So he knows everything that has happened, is happening and will happen.
3. God is interventionist. By which I mean that he periodically interacts with the world in response to prayers or other reasons.
4. God created the universe (so set the rules of existence) and creates each human soul.

So… The problem is immediately apparent. God cannot help but be responsible for everything. He started both the universe and each life, and he did it knowing full well which souls would ultimately go to hell. Indeed in making certain souls in the way he did he guaranteed that that soul would go to hell (from his own omniscient point of view).*

He could with his infinite power have made each and any soul slightly differently to prevent that individual going to hell, but doesn’t.*

He could at any point have intervened in an unnoticeably subtle way (or even a noticeable way via a miracle or similar) to prevent that individual going to hell, but doesn’t.*

With the four points above God is like a person setting a toy train running along a track and off the edge of the table. He could have laid the track differently, he could have switched the signals at any point. But he doesn’t, the train falls and God then blames and burns the train as punishment for having fallen.

 

[vz71]

With the four points above God is like a person setting a toy train running along a track and off the edge of the table. He could have laid the track differently, he could have switched the signals at any point. But he doesn’t, the train falls and God then blames and burns the train as punishment for having fallen.

A train has no choice but following the track.
We however do have a choice.

 

[Candide_West]

A train has no choice but following the track.
We however do have a choice.

No, that is exactly the point. If God has the four identified characteristics then we could no more choose a different path than the train could.

If we can choose a different path to the one God knows we will take then he is not omniscient.*

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Peter,

I think there is a broader (but closely related) problem here. I’ve not heard an adequate answer to this one before so would be interested if anyone knows one. I’m sure this isn’t the first time this issue has been raised so I’m interested to see your thoughts.

As far as I can see the Catholic beliefs about God mean that free will is in fact an illusion. To explain (please let me know if I misunderstand or misrepresent catholic belief here);

1. God is omnipotent. That is he is capable of doing anything which is logically possible.*
2. God is omniscient. So he knows everything that has happened, is happening and will happen.
3. God is interventionist. By which I mean that he periodically interacts with the world in response to prayers or other reasons.
4. God created the universe (so set the rules of existence) and creates each human soul.

So… The problem is immediately apparent. God cannot help but be responsible for everything. He started both the universe and each life, and he did it knowing full well which souls would ultimately go to hell. Indeed in making certain souls in the way he did he guaranteed that that soul would go to hell (from his own omniscient point of view).*

He could with his infinite power have made each and any soul slightly differently to prevent that individual going to hell, but doesn’t.*

He could at any point have intervened in an unnoticeably subtle way (or even a noticeable way via a miracle or similar) to prevent that individual going to hell, but doesn’t.*

With the four points above God is like a person setting a toy train running along a track and off the edge of the table. He could have laid the track differently, he could have switched the signals at any point. But he doesn’t, the train falls and God then blames and burns the train as punishment for having fallen.

I am off to bed so this is a very quick answer.

In choosing to create us with free will, God has chosen to curtail His omnipotence by our free will.

 

[vz71]

I am off to bed so this is a very quick answer.

In choosing to create us with free will, God has chosen to curtail His omnipotence by our free will.

Or perhaps he values the exercise of our choice more then the choice itself?

 

[Candide_West]

I am off to bed so this is a very quick answer.

In choosing to create us with free will, God has chosen to curtail His omnipotence by our free will.

Interesting answer. Is that an official catholic view or your own opinion?*

Also what do you mean by that? Are you just saying you believe that in giving us free will an element of choice has been taken from God to give to us? Or are you saying that you believe God is unable to shape or direct our lives?*

If the former then this in itself is not sufficient answer since it would still mean that God knows everything that could happen with every permutation of his creation of or intervention in the world. And would still have the power to therefore set people and events exactly as he desired and is therefore responsible for everything.

If the latter then this would seem to contradict the idea that God has a plan and also disagree with those people who say that God has intervened in their lives to direct them to achieve something.*

Also the latter would seem to imply a limit on omniscience as well as a limit on omnipotence. In fact I think (but haven’t checked each possible arrangement) that in order for us to have true free will God would need to not have at least two of my four characteristics. Ie he could be not omniscient and not omnipotent but be the creator and interventionist and we could have free will. Or he could be non-interventionist and not omniscient etc.*

But as far as I can see if he has all four characteristics then free will must be an illusion.

 

[vz71]

No, that is exactly the point. If God has the four identified characteristics then we could no more choose a different path than the train could.

If we can choose a different path to the one God knows we will take then he is not omniscient.*

Why not?
We do not have those four characteristics.
And it is our choice.

 

[benedictus2]

Interesting answer. Is that an official catholic view or your own opinion?*

Just my own thinking. I am have not yet read how the Catholic Church would answer this.

Also what do you mean by that? Are you just saying you believe that in giving us free will an element of choice has been taken from God to give to us?

No. It is not like choice is either God’s or ours. By giving us free will, it means that he will not over ride our decisions.

Or are you saying that you believe God is unable to shape or direct our lives?*

He is able to shape our lives but not by over riding our free will.

I sort of see it this way.

When the GPS first came out, our IT manager was the first in our company to have one. The day he got it he gave me a lift and I marvelled at this little gadget. After punching the “from” and “to” it gave us the most efficient way home.

But then I instructed him to go by the route that I know and to ignore the directions given by the SatNav. Amazingly, this thing started recalculating and gave us new directions. And it kept doing this until we finally made it home.

I think God is like that with us. He gives us the best directions but if in our willfullness we ignore it, He keeps giving us new recalculated directions to take us home.

If the former then this in itself is not sufficient answer since it would still mean that God knows everything that could happen with every permutation of his creation of or intervention in the world.

I suppose He does, but He as I explained above He does not over write our free will. And it must be remembered that we tend to think in linear time. God is in the Kairos - in the perpetual Now.

And would still have the power to therefore set people and events exactly as he desired and is therefore responsible for everything.

But He doesn’t because in giving us free will, He freely chose not to do that. Perhaps He thought a puppet is not much fun to interact with

If the latter then this would seem to contradict the idea that God has a plan and also disagree with those people who say that God has intervened in their lives to direct them to achieve something.*

Not quite as I illustrated in the GPS example. God makes something beautiful with even our mistakes.

Also the latter would seem to imply a limit on omniscience as well as a limit on omnipotence.

It is only a limit on omniscience since we tend to think linearly vis a vis time. I don’t know what the Eternal Now is like. What it is like to be outside of time and space.

 

[Candide_West]

Or perhaps he values the exercise of our choice more then the choice itself?

?

Not sure I understand vz71. Are you saying that you think perhaps God is happy enough with the fact that we do the things we do even though it isn’t by our free will? Effectively we don’t need free will? I suspect I’m just misunderstanding you here.

 

[Erethorn]

I think the problem could be formulated in a very simple manner:

When God created Jack (or Jim or whomever), God knew that Jack would end up in hell.

It’s that simple and no amount of rationalization will take that simplicity away.

That is the teaching of the Church.

Go with it or not, but that is the teaching of the Catholic Church (and of 99% of the rest of present day Christian Churches and denominations).

As someone has previously pointed put, all other versions have been branded as heresies.

 

[vz71]

?

Not sure I understand vz71. Are you saying that you think perhaps God is happy enough with the fact that we do the things we do even though it isn’t by our free will? Effectively we don’t need free will? I suspect I’m just misunderstanding you here.

You are misunderstanding.

I am just throwing out the theory that perhaps the exercise of our free will is the intended goal.

 

[Candide_West]

Just my own thinking. *I am have not yet read *how the Catholic Church would answer this.

Ok, cool. Out of curiosity does anyone reading know the official catholic view?

No. *It is not like choice is either God’s or ours. *By giving us free will, it means that he will not over ride our decisions.

I appreciate what free will is intended to mean however as I stated given the four characteristics I don’t think God could give us what I would call free will.

I think perhaps I am failing in my explanation of the problem here. I will endeavour to improve it.*

The key point is that I am not talking about him “overriding” our free will. What I’m talking about is free will being simply an illusion. For example I think it’s my choice that I’m writing this. But if God exists (and is omniscient) then he knew 15 billion years ago that I would be writing this.*

If he created my soul and is omniscient then he knew when he did so that he was effectively making me be here doing this right now, because if he is omnipotent then there are an infinite array of different ways he could have made my soul, in other words if he’d made me slightly differently I wouldn’t be here writing this.So that makes it effectively his choice to set me on a path leading to this moment.

If he is interventionist, he has probably made some tweaks in the world while I’ve been alive or before which have (perhaps only very slightly) influenced the path leading me to here. If he’d done differently, I would be different right now and would not be writing this (or perhaps writing it differently (and God would know all those permutations too) ).

In other words, God decided I would be here writing this right now and writing it exactly like this. Not me. I am just an actor, unaware that I am following a script which was written before the earth existed. Hence my free will is simply an illusion and every choice I make was in fact preordained by God. So to for everyone else, including those who are currently in hell. Hence the train analogy.

He is able to shape our lives but not by over riding our free will.
I sort of see it this way.

When the GPS first came out…

The key thing though is that the GPS lacks the four characteristics specified for God.

If it had those characteristics then I think at any given point on the journey you would have been exactly where the GPS wanted you to be.

I suppose He does, but He as I explained above He does not over write our free will. And it must be remembered that we tend to think in linear time. God is in the Kairos - in the perpetual Now.

Hopefully I have clarified, it’s not so much about overriding our free will but more about deciding for us (in advance) what our “free will” shall decide to do.

In fact I think I saw a tv programme once where someone told the lead character that they were in a film and got out the script to prove it. And there word for word was everything that they’d just said in the conversation the lead character (unsurprisingly) was gripped by panic and ran away (as the script said he would).

If God exists and has those characteristics then such is life. The script is already written, we are each of us playing out our parts. But are unaware we are reading from lines already selected by God.

However, it does make the morality of God punishing those actors whom he cast as villains rather questionable at best.*

But He doesn’t because in giving us free will, He freely chose not to do that. Perhaps He thought a puppet is not much fun to interact with

But if he has those characteristics then he has no choice. We are his puppets whether we like it or not.*

Not quite as I illustrated in the GPS example. God makes something beautiful with even our mistakes.

Ahhh but from Gods perspective we can’t make a “mistake” that’s exactly the kind of misleading linear think about time that you mentioned. Because he knew when he created the universe that I would be here writing this and you would be there reading this and absolutely nothing which anyone has ever done was a “mistake” in the sense of being different to the way God knew it would play out.

It is only a limit on omniscience since we tend to think linearly vis a vis time. I don’t know what the Eternal Now is like. What it is like to be outside of time and space.

Indeed we cannot, but in understanding the concepts we can work out their implications.

Perhaps an example would help. Two people, person A and person B are living lives of “sin” and well on course to going to hell. God intervenes in person A’s life in such a way that he is convinced, changes his life to one of “virtue” and goes to heaven. Person B continues living a life of “sin” and goes to hell.

An omnipotent, omniscient God could (by definition) have presented himself to person B in a way which would have convinced him and achieved the same effect and instead allowed person A to continue on and go to hell.*

So in this instance in choosing which persons life to intervene with God has decided which of them goes to hell and which to heaven. I suppose you could say that the person in both instances decided to change his ways, but since God must have known in advance what *decision each individual would make given each available intervention from God and this what would work and precisely what effect any given action would have, the individual is in effect simply following the script God wrote when he decided to intervene.

I think this demonstrates in a simple example how God decides who goes to heaven / hell without interrupting our perception of free will. The rest I think you could extrapolate by expanding the example.*

 

[davidv]

Ok, cool. Out of curiosity does anyone reading know the official catholic view?

I appreciate what free will is intended to mean however as I stated given the four characteristics I don’t think God could give us what I would call free will.

I think perhaps I am failing in my explanation of the problem here. I will endeavour to improve it.*

The key point is that I am not talking about him “overriding” our free will. What I’m talking about is free will being simply an illusion. For example I think it’s my choice that I’m writing this. But if God exists (and is omniscient) then he knew 15 billion years ago that I would be writing this.*

If he created my soul and is omniscient then he knew when he did so that he was effectively making me be here doing this right now, because if he is omnipotent then there are an infinite array of different ways he could have made my soul, in other words if he’d made me slightly differently I wouldn’t be here writing this.So that makes it effectively his choice to set me on a path leading to this moment.

On what basis do you equate knowledge with causality, as you did above?

If he is interventionist, he has probably made some tweaks in the world while I’ve been alive or before which have (perhaps only very slightly) influenced the path leading me to here. If he’d done differently, I would be different right now and would not be writing this (or perhaps writing it differently (and God would know all those permutations too) ).

In other words, God decided I would be here writing this right now and writing it exactly like this. Not me. I am just an actor, unaware that I am following a script which was written before the earth existed. Hence my free will is simply an illusion and every choice I make was in fact preordained by God. So to for everyone else, including those who are currently in hell. Hence the train analogy.

The key thing though is that the GPS lacks the four characteristics specified for God.

If it had those characteristics then I think at any given point on the journey you would have been exactly where the GPS wanted you to be.

Hopefully I have clarified, it’s not so much about overriding our free will but more about deciding for us (in advance) what our “free will” shall decide to do.

In fact I think I saw a tv programme once where someone told the lead character that they were in a film and got out the script to prove it. And there word for word was everything that they’d just said in the conversation the lead character (unsurprisingly) was gripped by panic and ran away (as the script said he would).

If God exists and has those characteristics then such is life. The script is already written, we are each of us playing out our parts. But are unaware we are reading from lines already selected by God.

However, it does make the morality of God punishing those actors whom he cast as villains rather questionable at best.*

But if he has those characteristics then he has no choice. We are his puppets whether we like it or not.*

Ahhh but from Gods perspective we can’t make a “mistake” that’s exactly the kind of misleading linear think about time that you mentioned. Because he knew when he created the universe that I would be here writing this and you would be there reading this and absolutely nothing which anyone has ever done was a “mistake” in the sense of being different to the way God knew it would play out.

Indeed we cannot, but in understanding the concepts we can work out their implications.

Perhaps an example would help. Two people, person A and person B are living lives of “sin” and well on course to going to hell. God intervenes in person A’s life in such a way that he is convinced, changes his life to one of “virtue” and goes to heaven. Person B continues living a life of “sin” and goes to hell.

An omnipotent, omniscient God could (by definition) have presented himself to person B in a way which would have convinced him and achieved the same effect and instead allowed person A to continue on and go to hell.*

So in this instance in choosing which persons life to intervene with God has decided which of them goes to hell and which to heaven. I suppose you could say that the person in both instances decided to change his ways, but since God must have known in advance what *decision each individual would make given each available intervention from God and this what would work and precisely what effect any given action would have, the individual is in effect simply following the script God wrote when he decided to intervene.

I think this demonstrates in a simple example how God decides who goes to heaven / hell without interrupting our perception of free will. The rest I think you could extrapolate by expanding the example.*

This is an invalid conclusion based on the false premise that knowledge = cause.

 

[sw85]

Yes, he gave me free will, but he is also omniscient, so he knows what I’m going to do with my free will - therefore - he knew before I was ever created that I would ultimately choose hell.
**
If I knew that my actions would cause someone else to go to hell**, I would abstain from that action. Am I not morally obliged to abstain from that action? If not, why not?

God’s action is creation. Why did he create man if he knew that many of us would spend eternity without him?

Thoughts?

But God’s action didn’t cause you to go to Hell. Yours did. That’s the nature of free will.

Knowledge doesn’t cause things to happen. I am aware that the sun will set this evening; but my knowing it isn’t what makes it so.

It is a very difficult concept. Hence my question. And thank you for your answer, but I suppose my main problem is this.

In football there is a winner and a loser. No big deal for the loser - he still gets to go home to his loved ones. So lets add a twist to your scenario. The losers of the football game get executed.

God knows that 60 players will lose their lives at the end of the game. Why did he decide to have a game at all?

Basically you’re asking what the secret to creation is. Who knows?