Why did God create such a large universe?

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MH84 said:
The problem is the more people explore the universe and learn more about it, the more people tend not to believe in God or head towards agnosticism.
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Not necessarily.

Their openness toward God depends on the hypotheses from which they proceed in their investigations.

For example, some folks posit that the universe cannot be known beyond (before) the Big Bang or beyond (after) the event horizons of black holes.

To some extent, then, what they find is determined by what they expect to find. In this case, unknowability and therefore disorder.

It is indeed exceedingly odd for physicists to expect to find a domain in which physics breaks. What purpose does such a belief serve?

Moreover what they expect to find is often determined by their own experiences in life.

This does not completely rule out the role of surprise in scientific endeavour. But it does flesh out the axiom “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.” And also the axiom “be careful what you wish for.”
 
MH84 said:
I mean what is it all for? There are all these unknown planets and stars (most of which are uninhabitable), blackholes etc that the human race will never see, and it seems really unrelated to the livelihood and salvation of man.

I think we agree that the creation of the universe doesnt increase the glory of God or that He cares about proving that He could create such a large creation. I think we also agree that after we die, I dont think we will be spending our time looking at all the planets etc, hopefully we will be with God and have eternal and true peace.

In conclusion: was the universe created for another reason besides us?
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Firstly, I think God had a whole lot of FUN creating the universe, and He wanted to share, so He made us! :dancing: :extrahappy: :love:

Read GK Chesterton’s “The Man Who Was Thursday,” which I think conveys some of the emotion I’m trying to express. (BTW, if I were to be one of the Days, I think I’d be Monday, but I digress …)

Secondly, I have in fact prayed that as part of my experience of Heaven, that I be allowed to travel throughout the universe and see the wonders of stars, comets, galaxies, planets, moons …

Wow !!! :dancing: :extrahappy: :love:

And thank the Lord for His creation!

:bowdown2:

~~ the phoenix
 
Maybe God needs the space to put all our sin; when we sin we act against God when we go to confession and are granted absolution are sins are forgiven and cast away making us white as snow. In Physics matter is not destroyed but converted to energy, perhaps in a spiritual scense sin is not destroyed but cast away into space. We know that the outer edges of the galaxy is still expanding maybe not from the big bang but from the big fall. Adams fall and mankinds perpetual sins. Just a late night thought.
 
mackey said:
Maybe God needs the space to put all our sin; when we sin we act against God when we go to confession and are granted absolution are sins are forgiven and cast away making us white as snow. In Physics matter is not destroyed but converted to energy, perhaps in a spiritual scense sin is not destroyed but cast away into space. We know that the outer edges of the galaxy is still expanding maybe not from the big bang but from the big fall. Adams fall and mankinds perpetual sins. Just a late night thought.
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It would not surprise me at all if there is a spiritual linkage to Creation. St. Francis used terms like Brother Sun Sister Moon. Each entity is in its own dominion yet we share common physical rules. I imagine that God is very frugal with His grace and every drop (if that is a proper analogy) is spent in a way that returns to Him equal or greater merit.

If we suddenly see stars shift around or the universe suddenly start to contract we an probably assume we are in huge trouble and our sin is polluting the good order of things. It would not surprise me in the least if there are not systemic checks and balances and God given rules/order at the planetary level as well as at the cosmological and subatomic levels that operate to impose a gravity or consequence (cause and effect) against anything that is disordered. In fact scripture speaks of a New Heaven and A New Earth on the end of time.

I personally think that paradise and heaven (2 seperate things) are much more wondrous than all of Creation. But I’d sure love to be able to visit each and every galaxy in an instant of eternity to see it all and comprehend it all as something close to how God sees it. We can only imagine that the beatific vision is more wonderful than anything we can imagine - and that’s exciting since I can imagine a lot!

James
 
MH84 said:
The problem is the more people explore the universe and learn more about it, the more people tend not to believe in God or head towards agnosticism.
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The flow of reasoning is not necessarily valid. This is like saying that familiarity leads to disbelief, which is not true. In fact the opposite is true: the more we see God’s wonders, the more we realize his Presence.

The only way to make it valid is to prove that man’s motivation to explore the universe is intrinsically selfish and patricidal.
 
Since im agnostic i would have to say that to look out into a universe that has billions of planets seems rather confusing, im not sure whether it makes me lean towards atheism or not.
On one hand out of the billions and billions of planets this is the only planet that is said to contain life, but then again even if there was another life form outside our galaxy we dont yet have the technology availabe to detect it anyway. I rememeber watching a video by Carl Sagan, it was absolutely amazing, it showed our Earth in comparison with the whole universe, our planet was just a spec of star dust barely visible to the human eye. ill give the link and im not trying to convert anyone(i myself am not even atheist, like carl sagan) its just for educational purposes because i have a weird feeling that most people on this forum cant exactly grasp how big our universe actually is.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
PLEASE WATCH BEFOR U RESPOND!
 
MH84 said:
For starters, whats the point of the rest of the solar system besides the sun and the moon?
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Hello MH,

I believe Leopard is on the right track. How small should God have created the universe? Perhaps small enough that we could reach it’s limits and conclude that there is a “wall” or “veil”? Perhaps small enough for us to determine that it has a definite shape and that things bounce off of it limiting fabric? Mechanically speaking this would be a problem if things were to bounce off of the “wall” or “veil” and create more chaos than what is already percieved in the universe. How small does it need to be so that it doesn’t seem like such a waste of space and creative power from a God that would seem to be “creation happy”.? Small enough to where we could see the veil with a pair of binoculars? Or just small enough to where we could see the end with the Hubble?
If the universe were visibly finite - we perhaps wouldn’t be talking about this topic but, we would be talking about a “fish bowl” feeling philosophy. Why did God make the universe so…confined? Why didn’t He make the universe more inifinite?

Sorry, didn’t mean to ramble on.
 
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MH84:
if we are the main point of creation, why did God decided to create a universe that existed billions and billions of years for a species that will exist for a much shorter time. Why didnt God decide to do what the Creationists (and I think Muslims) believe? God can make things work in any way. God didnt need there to be dust and gas to provide light and heat for the world.
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God also created the physical laws by which the universe functions. Moreover we were created with free will.

In some respects, that free will is boundaried by those physical laws. But in other respects those physical laws allow us to conceive of God as an Option in terms of our own individual beliefs about our lives and about life in general.

Is that not the very point? That God wants us to CHOOSE Him and not be – intellectually at least – FORCED to interpret every event in life as micromanaged by an in-our-face, intrusive puppet master?
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MH84:
I think Jesus is enough majesty for the human race.
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But how is that majesty received? Interpreted? Understood?

biblegateway – which is the link you provided – is not a Catholic source. Therefore it lacks notions of alternative baptisms which the Catholic Church has documented. Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire, and – the relevant one here – Invincible Ignorance.

Question: In an illiterate, pre-Bible, non Judeo-Christian, Eurocentric culture, how is a person supposed to know that the majesty of Creation is imbued with the Personality of Jesus?

Answer: Without the immediate presence of the visible Church and of the Bible, a person is left with the witness of Creation. Keeping a keen mind tuned to the lessons in Creation eventually leads a soul to Jesus.

Hence: God in all things.

Did God limit Himself to the Church? Or to the Bible?

Um… no. By definition, He did not. He is without limits.
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MH84:
Does believing in an enormous universe (compared to our planet) mean that we fear God more or think He is smarter etc? No, it doesnt. The very fact that He created us is enough for us to respect Him I think.
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But what are we? Just dust? Just individuals, rocks and islands unto ourselves? Did God not say: “It is not good for the man to be alone”? To what extent does God expect us to understand that we are not alone? Perhaps to an infinite extent. Hence: the universe.
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MH84:
Also, the ancient Israelites didnt know about the outside universe so to speak, but they in general had a great fear and respect of God. Moses didnt want to see great creation, he wanted to see God’s glory.
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The ancients were constantly confronted with the problem of the ‘other.’ The building of the golden calf was one expression of the wrongful interpretation of another culture. In fact, their ‘great fear and respect of God’ was fraught with brokenness. Was it not?

And in fact the ancients had a pretty good idea that there was a universe beyond their own horizons. They had their own astronomers.
 
I’ve not read all 4 pages of this thread so I don’t know if this point was covered or not.

Scientists speculate that the universe in 14 billion years old. The earth is about 4 1/2 billion years old. Scientists are still trying to figure out the age of man. But, compared to the age of the earth - man is rather a recent addition to the universe.

Some scientists has postulated in something called the “anthropic principle”. The anthropic principle basically proposes that the entire universe was designed for the creation of man. When God created the universe some 14 billion years ago by some tremendous explosion of light it took some 10 billion years for the earth to come to be. So, the universe NEEDED to be expanding for 10 billion light years so the earth could be prepared for the next step in God’s plan.

This is stated very succinctly in Genesis 1:1 – In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 10 billion years in a nutshell.

After the earth was given it’s form it took almost the total of the 4 1/2 billion years for the earth to be prepared for the entrance of man. Everything had to be just right to support life. So, the universe needed another 4 1/2 billion light years to expand. And, presently we are in the “age of man” – created in God’s image. So, for God to create man to live in a world of time and space God needed 15 billion light years (and counting) to do the job. So, IMO, that’s why the world is so large. It was created so we could be the crowning glory of God’s creative power - to make us His Sons and Daughters.

So, as the heavens declare the glory of God - we can now understand, through the anthropic principle, that the heavens were part of the necessary path God used to come to the creation of us. Just like there’s a tremendous amount of time and space necessary in the process of the creation of an apple tree and a large bunch of “stuff” (which we enjoy eating) surrounding an apple seed so it can be fruitful and multiply – the universe is the tremendous amount of stuff prepared so the earth could be prepared for the creation of man so he could be fruitful and multiply the earth. Or, as Paul says in Romans – the whole universe groans in travail awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. … and in another passage “Eye has not seen or ear heard; neither has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him.”

MonFrere
 
MonFrere said:
I’ve not read all 4 pages of this thread so I don’t know if this point was covered or not.

Scientists speculate that the universe in 14 billion years old. The earth is about 4 1/2 billion years old. Scientists are still trying to figure out the age of man. But, compared to the age of the earth - man is rather a recent addition to the universe.

Some scientists has postulated in something called the “anthropic principle”. The anthropic principle basically proposes that the entire universe was designed for the creation of man. When God created the universe some 14 billion years ago by some tremendous explosion of light it took some 10 billion years for the earth to come to be. So, the universe NEEDED to be expanding for 10 billion light years so the earth could be prepared for the next step in God’s plan.

This is stated very succinctly in Genesis 1:1 – In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 10 billion years in a nutshell.

After the earth was given it’s form it took almost the total of the 4 1/2 billion years for the earth to be prepared for the entrance of man. Everything had to be just right to support life. So, the universe needed another 4 1/2 billion light years to expand. And, presently we are in the “age of man” – created in God’s image. So, for God to create man to live in a world of time and space God needed 15 billion light years (and counting) to do the job. So, IMO, that’s why the world is so large. It was created so we could be the crowning glory of God’s creative power - to make us His Sons and Daughters.

So, as the heavens declare the glory of God - we can now understand, through the anthropic principle, that the heavens were part of the necessary path God used to come to the creation of us. Just like there’s a tremendous amount of time and space necessary in the process of the creation of an apple tree and a large bunch of “stuff” (which we enjoy eating) surrounding an apple seed so it can be fruitful and multiply – the universe is the tremendous amount of stuff prepared so the earth could be prepared for the creation of man so he could be fruitful and multiply the earth. Or, as Paul says in Romans – the whole universe groans in travail awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. … and in another passage “Eye has not seen or ear heard; neither has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him.”

MonFrere
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I like this anthropic principal. It clearly points out what I’ve always felt was correct (faith). That sufficient billions upon billions of years have transpired to prepare everything for man and so that when man started experiencing the world around him, he would percieve it as it currently is with all its percieved mysteries and seemingly untraceable origins.
 
melbourne_guy said:
Since im agnostic i would have to say that to look out into a universe that has billions of planets seems rather confusing, im not sure whether it makes me lean towards atheism or not.
On one hand out of the billions and billions of planets this is the only planet that is said to contain life, but then again even if there was another life form outside our galaxy we dont yet have the technology availabe to detect it anyway. I rememeber watching a video by Carl Sagan, it was absolutely amazing, it showed our Earth in comparison with the whole universe, our planet was just a spec of star dust barely visible to the human eye. ill give the link and im not trying to convert anyone(i myself am not even atheist, like carl sagan) its just for educational purposes because i have a weird feeling that most people on this forum cant exactly grasp how big our universe actually is.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
PLEASE WATCH BEFOR U RESPOND!
Click to expand...
Yeah, but what’s really amazing is exactly where that little speck is.
 
We have to ask what is the purpose of the universe?

God made the universe so that a large number of beings can choose to spend eternity with Him.

The free will choice puts constraints on physical laws and how it operates.

Anthropic coincidences show that size and time were important for elements to be created, etc…
 
This might sound heretical but I hope it is not.

It appears that God in general prefers to not step very often directly with miracles and events outside of the natural order and laws His has laid in place. In a sense it seems that he pre-ordained a set of rules and order into matter and time-space itself to govern everything with a natural and consistent order.

I sometimes wonder if God created a large universe just to have the statistical certainty (statistics and various probability distributions are all present in natural phenomena) that “Creation” would see a spontaneous naturally arising event called “life” emerge at a certain point in time from the beginning of Creation “somewhere” within Creation as a consequence of its being and operating according to natural laws? This would make both evolution and creationism beliefs harmonious.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
This might sound heretical but I hope it is not.

It appears that God in general prefers to not step very often directly with miracles and events outside of the natural order and laws His has laid in place.
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Miracles are by definition an abnegation natural law or the natural expectation of things. My speculation is that when God came to earth via the Incarnation he gave us “a visual” as to his miracles. Today, people are healed when, otherwise, they would die. I say, God did it, only we don’t have the Incarnation to “see” it. The hungry getting fed is accomplished in the same way – in the scriptures it says Jesus had compassion of the crowds. Today, His life within us, has compassion of those hungry and we cooperate with that divine life as see to it that the hungry are fed. We are the continuation of the Incarnation in that we, the Church, are the body of Christ. God living in us is witness to all sorts of “miracles”. According to “the law of sin” things will work toward death. When we allow Christ to work through us, the divine works and crushes the works of death. We, through Christ, as Christ, have overcome the world.

Will answer your other questions later.

MonFrere
 
Consider this:
The IAU had a survey done of its membership some years ago (late 1980’s or early 1990’s, I forget).

It shocked a lot of people.

Most IAU members believed in a supreme creator of some form, but very few were members of an organized religion.

The most common rationale I’ve heard is that the extreme order in the universe points to a divine hand, but it also points to a hands-off “Cosmic Clockmaker” kind of God.
 
MH84 said:
In conclusion: was the universe created for another reason besides us?
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We tend to think of ourselves as top of the food chain, and so we are on planet Earth. But perhaps there are other planets inhabited by rational beings. Perhaps there are many such planets. In light of this possibility, we should not, however, entertain any strange ideas such as that of Cosmic Savior going from planet to planet.

Perhaps there are even non-carbon based life forms out there. I said this to get a rise out of the Star Trek fans.

We don’t understand much at all about the universe. It’s even hard to get two physicists to agree on a definition of matter.

In any case, I suspect the cosmos is more than just a temporary abode for us Earthlings. Scripture refers to a new heavens and a new Earth. Just what part the new heavens and Earth will play in the next life, remains unknown at this point. There is a great Divine plan for the cosmos, one which has not been revealed to us.

And how much do we really know about ourselves as human beings? Some Catholic thinkers have speculated that we have potentially many more senses than just the six sense we are presently using. Perhaps speculating about the nature and potentials of the resurrected body will enable us to get glimpse of the idea that we will experience the new heavens and Earth in a much more profound way than how we presently experience reality.

We are spiritual beings so we can be united to God in the Beatific Vision. We are physical beings, as well. Our physical body is not just for now and for a temporary abode on this physical planet. God has a great plan for our physical nature that somehow involves a relationship to this vast and mysterious universe. So, stay tuned. Be responsible custodians of the planet. Because there is much more to come.

itinerant1 :tiphat:
 
MH84 said:
The problem is the more people explore the universe and learn more about it, the more people tend not to believe in God or head towards agnosticism.
Click to expand...
If a man truely seeks truth even the most stalwart non beliver will doubt there is no God.
 
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