Why did God create us?

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snarflemike said:
Your argument requires that God has created some who are destined, through no fault of their own, to be condemned to hell. That’s Calvinism, not Catholicism.
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Call it what you will. But apparently that’s the teaching of the catholic church as well. Because if grace were equally available to all, only a few lunatics would be in hell.
snarflemike said:
If God desires all to be saved, as he does, how could he not supply all sufficient grace to be saved?
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You tell me. Say I’m a model catholic all my life; helped the poor, endured suffering, always faithful to the church. But one Sunday I get lazy and skip mass. The one and only time I ever missed mass in my entire life, mind you. That evening I drop dead. Guess what my friend, I’m going to hell. After all missing mass is a mortal sin.

I really find it hard to see any “grace” in that.
 
sandomenico said:
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  Adam and Eve were not created to suffer.
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If God knew they would fall before He created them, and He also knew that they, along with the rest of humanity would suffer because of that, how can it be that they were not created to suffer?
sandomenico said:
They chose suffering and death because they chose themselves over God
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Again, if God knew all this beforehand, why create them just to watch them (and the rest of us) suffer?
sandomenico said:
Suffering is a condition of salvation, not of existence.
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If that is true, then I have a very naive view of suffering. I read of people being tortured, see people ravaged by wars and famine on TV, watch people die cruel and horrible deaths from a whole myriad of illnesses.
sandomenico said:
Isn’t temporal work the very essence of our ability to praise God?
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Depends on your state in life. Some folks like their jobs. Others hate them with a passion. Still others have no jobs at all. I doubt many people who hate their jobs or are unemployed spend much time praising God for that.
sandmen said:
Isn’t His proof of Love the fact that He sends us His Grace to sanctify all our works?
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That doesn’t seem to be the case for me right now.
 
snarflemike said:
Assuming there is some serious component to your post, why don’t you tell us how God should have done things differently. Then we can explore the ramifications of your new and improved God.
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He should have shown us that, by following His word on earth, He would provide for us, and thus we could prove to the world the wisdom of following Him. And thus, millions would turn to Him.

Instead, He allowed the Holocaust and the continual starvation and decimation of countless millions of innocent people in many countries.

I’m still searching for a sign of His infinite love.
 
fedupbeliever said:
He should have shown us that, by following His word on earth, He would provide for us, and thus we could prove to the world the wisdom of following Him. And thus, millions would turn to Him.
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Shown how? Details, please.
 
nightranger said:
Call it what you will. But apparently that’s the teaching of the catholic church as well. Because if grace were equally available to all, only a few lunatics would be in hell.

You tell me. Say I’m a model catholic all my life; helped the poor, endured suffering, always faithful to the church. But one Sunday I get lazy and skip mass. The one and only time I ever missed mass in my entire life, mind you. That evening I drop dead. Guess what my friend, I’m going to hell. After all missing mass is a mortal sin.

I really find it hard to see any “grace” in that.
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I have never read in the bible about missing mass being a mortal sin? I am not Catholic, so I must be exempt from mass and so am planning on heaven! I have read in the bible that there is only one unforgivable sin, that being the rejection of Jesus Christ (via the Holy Spirit). Matthew 12:31-32. To believe that we will not see God after we die because we didn’t have the opportunity to ask forgivness before death would not be what God leads us to believe in His word or that he is our loving and merciful Father.
 
nightranger said:
Call it what you will. But apparently that’s the teaching of the catholic church as well. Because if grace were equally available to all, only a few lunatics would be in hell.
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So God created Lucifer and all his fallen angels as lunatics?
You tell me. Say I’m a model catholic all my life; helped the poor, endured suffering, always faithful to the church. But one Sunday I get lazy and skip mass. The one and only time I ever missed mass in my entire life, mind you. That evening I drop dead. Guess what my friend, I’m going to hell. After all missing mass is a mortal sin.
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You don’t seem to know the definition of mortal sin. But in any case, you can REJECT God in an instant, just as on your deathbed you can ACCEPT him in an instant. If one is unfair, is the other also unfair?
 
sandomenico said:
God created angels perfect as angels, and Adam and Eve perfect as human creatures (with preternatural gifts beyond that original perfection). Adam and Eve knew God. They walked and spoke with Him in the Garden.
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They were definitely NOT perfect.

Either the serpent spoke plainly, and they had the imperfection of stupidity, or
the serpent was slick, and they had the imperfection of naivete or
the serpent was like 60 feet tall, and both of them had the imperfection of fear.

Either which way, Adam had the imperfection of cowardice (he blamed his wife and took zero responsibility)

And they got punished due to the results of their imperfections.
Suffering is a condition of salvation, not of existence.
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So God does want Masochists. He doesn’t want me.
Is Grace restricted to the spiritual realm alone?
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Yup. Grace doesn’t help me find a job.
Isn’t temporal work the very essence of our ability to praise God?
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If I’m not able to find a job, then not only am I punished by unemployment, I’ll be punished for not being able to praise God through my work.
Isn’t our very work a gift of God to help us return on a debt we cannot pay without His help? Isn’t His proof of Love the fact that He sends us His Grace to sanctify all our works?
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First I have to get a job to think about this. But God is not generous enough to get me a job. My next employer will be far more generous than God.
 
BobCatholic said:
He created us to suffer.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:21
come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
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WOW. I am glad I don’t believe that and that the Church does not teach it.

True we may suffer but that is not the reason for our existence.

You just have to be kidding. Surely you do not really accept this concept.
 
HelenRose said:
WOW. I am glad I don’t believe that and that the Church does not teach it.

True we may suffer but that is not the reason for our existence.

You just have to be kidding. Surely you do not really accept this concept.
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I wonder about a couple of the self-identified Catholic posters in this thread. They’re either not telling the truth, or they’re having a massive crisis of faith.
 
It seems a few posters in this thread reject the concept of free will. God did not create us to become his kidnap victims, forced to be with him and love him and be the objects of his love for all eternity regardless of our desires in the matter. God also did not create us so that it would be impossible to choose against him - see previous sentence.

Free will consists of two components - the ability to choose, and the power to affect that choice. It’s not free will if I can’t choose to do harm, and it’s also not free will if I can choose to do harm, but I am incapable of doing it. So God has granted us both the ability to choose and the power to affect our choices. And in this life we have chosen suffering for both ourselves and for innocents.

Perhaps it would be better, rather than bemoan our suffering and the suffering of others, to try to alleviate that suffering in any way we have open to us. Suffering exists, so what are you going to DO about it?
 
snarflemike said:
I wonder about a couple of the self-identified Catholic posters in this thread. They’re either not telling the truth, or they’re having a massive crisis of faith.
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There was a heresy floating around about the time of St. Therese of Lisieux (1800 - 1900) that went something like that. A very pessimistic view of God. People still like to hold on to these types of heresies even after the Church discounts them.

There is no way to argue with people who want to be miserable and want the rest of the world to join them.
 
I look at suffering in this manner.

Look at a beautiful silk flower. Beautiful and perfect. It does not suffer, wilt or die. But it is not alive.

A real flower is beautiful. It is alive, vibrant and far more beautiful than any silk flower.

That is life. Life is difficult. We do suffer. We do die. But, oh the beauty in life and the joy of living.

God has given us this life.
How can anyone say we are created to suffer?
I say we are created to live, to love God, to love life and accept life with all its problems.
 
HelenRose said:
WOW. I am glad I don’t believe that and that the Church does not teach it.

True we may suffer but that is not the reason for our existence.

You just have to be kidding. Surely you do not really accept this concept.
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Then explain why God does not love me enough to find me a job? My wife and little boy depend on me and I can’t help…
 
BobCatholic said:
Then explain why God does not love me enough to find me a job? My wife and little boy depend on me and I can’t help…
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Would your situation be better if God didn’t exist?

BTW, I was unemployed for a long time myself recently, so I don’t dismiss your very real angst.
 
jon_hansen said:
I have never read in the bible about missing mass being a mortal sin? I am not Catholic, so I must be exempt from mass and so am planning on heaven!
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You are exactly right Jon. It is not in the bible, just Catholic dogma. Also, being a protestant, you are exempt from this and I have no doubt that you will be in heaven.
jon_hansen said:
To believe that we will not see God after we die because we didn’t have the opportunity to ask forgiveness before death would not be what God leads us to believe in His word or that he is our loving and merciful Father.
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I agree. Doesn’t sound very merciful to me either.
 
nightranger said:
Apparently so, either that or angels who loved evil.
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Either that or you reject the concept of free will as a necessary aspect of being created in the image and likeness of God.
I certainly do. Are you trying to tell me that intentionally missing on Sunday mass is not a mortal sin?
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You said out of laziness. You never specified that full knowledge and full consent of the will were involved. Would you really risk your soul for an extra hour of sleep? Would you really not have perfect contrition when you were awake? Now who’s the lunatic?
 
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